Short term vs long term

Sunshinepacker

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So, I’ve mentioned this in passing in other threads, and if some feel this should be merged elsewhere then so be it, but I’m curious what most posters would prefer. First option, the 2-4 seed in the playoffs on the back of a running back centric offense that won’t be very helpful on the playoffs or, second, a wild card but an offense that will be more effective in the playoffs?

So, if the packers just de-emphasized the passing game during the regular season and turned into the Derrick Henry lead Titans they would probably win more regular season games. However, without an all-time great defense, how many running back centric Super Bowl winning teams have their been lately? Not many (i can’t actually think of any).

The second option would involve the packers running their semi-normal offense (which was one of the best on the league with Adams) and dealing with short-term pain while they find out what they can and cannot do in the passing game. In this scenario they’ll lose more regular season games but, hopefully, get the rookies up to speed on what they need to do to get the offense going. In a run-centric offense you’re potentially looking at throwing 20-25 passes a game and not letting the rookies have the kind of pressure or learning curve they’ll face in the playoffs; the team will have fewer chances to see have guys run routes in real games and see what types of routes beat suit the receivers.

The team knows what Lazard and Cobb can do. Doubbs/Watson/Watkins are still a mystery to the team and the team needs to find out their limits before the playoffs. I know some will argue otherwise, but this team doesn’t have the defense to reliably hold an elite offense to a low enough point total to rely primarily on the run. Finding out what the new receivers can do and tailoring the offense to those skills is, in my opinion, worth a couple extra losses during the regular season. Giving the rookies reps against opposing defenses trying to jam them is important in their development. Obviously I’d prefer to win while developing these guys but if the team has to lose a few while the receivers find their way and Rodgers figure out how to play with games with them, then I’ll take the wildcard over being eliminated by the Eagles or the Bucs in the second round.

Btw, i typed this on my phone and while i checked for typos, I’m sure i missed some so don’t judge the diction too harshly.
 
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I would definitely prefer the second option with the passing offense entering the playoffs in sync and the team qualifying for the playoffs as a wild card.

But, there are some caveats coming with that approach.

First of all, there's no guarantee the Packers win enough games to even make the playoffs that way.

In addition it's entirely possible the offense doesn't have enough talent for the passing game to develop into a unit good enough to make it work in the postseason.
 

PikeBadger

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I want to see the Packers utilize Jones and Dillon more as well as the TE's and play less WR snaps overall. I think they should utilize more 12,13,21 & 22 formations.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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I want to see the Packers utilize Jones and Dillon more as well as the TE's and play less WR snaps overall. I think they should utilize more 12,13,21 & 22 formations.

What TEs besides Tonyan are you convinced an elite offense can be built with?
 
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I want to see the Packers utilize Jones and Dillon more as well as the TE's and play less WR snaps overall. I think they should utilize more 12,13,21 & 22 formations.

As pointed out before, the Packers are less successful with both Jones and Dillon on the field at the same time.

I agree with sunshine that the team doesn't feature any other tight end aside of Tonyan who might be able to make a difference consistently.
 

gopkrs

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As pointed out before, the Packers are less successful with both Jones and Dillon on the field at the same time.

I agree with sunshine that the team doesn't feature any other tight end aside of Tonyan who might be able to make a difference consistently.
I don't think we know how well Deguara might do. If the O line could keep Rodgers clean; both of them going out for pass could be really good. With three other receivers (empty backfield), or a running back and two receivers. That would leave 5 or 6 to pass protect. I'm not suggesting to do that all the time.
 

Mondio

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I just don't see what everyone else seems to see in Deguara. I mean he's fine, but his routes aren't impressive, his size isn't impressive, his speed isn't impressive, his hands and catch radius isn't impressive, his YAC ability isn't impressive. It's all rather pedestrian. So yeah, he can catch some balls, but I just don't see anything game changing about his game. At all.
 

JoePack

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Would be very interested in Matt Campbell from Ia.State as our headcoach. Attributes-fire and enthusiasm, but above all he's a 2nd half coach. No, they don't win all their games but he has a knack of never being out of the game. If he had top talent to work with, he'd be on top.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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I don't think we know how well Deguara might do. If the O line could keep Rodgers clean; both of them going out for pass could be really good. With three other receivers (empty backfield), or a running back and two receivers. That would leave 5 or 6 to pass protect. I'm not suggesting to do that all the time.

Why don’t coaches know how good a FB/TE can be after he’s been on the field for multiple seasons and they’ve seen him frequently in practice? If he was a truly good receiving option he’d be on the field more often.
 
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Sunshinepacker

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Would be very interested in Matt Campbell from Ia.State as our headcoach. Attributes-fire and enthusiasm, but above all he's a 2nd half coach. No, they don't win all their games but he has a knack of never being out of the game. If he had top talent to work with, he'd be on top.

MLF is a terrific coach who has been give an offense crippled by lack of receiving options (we all get to see what happens when defenses can just crowd the short-yardage passing game). It’s depressing to watch fans blame everyone but the guy who left the cupboard bare at receiver for the offense’s issues. But at least they have a highly drafted backup QB!!!
 
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Sunshinepacker

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I just don't see what everyone else seems to see in Deguara. I mean he's fine, but his routes aren't impressive, his size isn't impressive, his speed isn't impressive, his hands and catch radius isn't impressive, his YAC ability isn't impressive. It's all rather pedestrian. So yeah, he can catch some balls, but I just don't see anything game changing about his game. At all.

It’s hope. There’s literally no reason other than justifying his third round draft price for fans to think a FB/TE is some kind of difference maker.
 

JoePack

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MLF is a terrific coach who has been give an offense crippled by lack of receiving options (we all get to see what happens when defenses can just crowd the short-yardage passing game). It’s depressing to watch fans blame everyone but the guy who left the cupboard bare at receiver for the offense’s issues. But at least they have a highly drafted backup QB!!!
Everyone is entitled to their opinion. For me, just keep thinking MlF is the answer, and eventually heads will roll. Between MM andMLF, there's a reason for only 1 SB.
This game is not going to well.
..
 
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Sunshinepacker

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion. For me, just keep thinking MlF is the answer, and eventually heads will roll. Between MM andMLF, there's a reason for only 1 SB.
This game is not going to well.
..

Uhm, why are GMS immune to blame?
 

JoePack

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They aren't but I put the ultimate responsibility on M.Murphy. Always starts at the top
 
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None of the above. They really need to trade for and/or sign a veteran WR. I do agree that we need to be running the ball more and could be leaning on the running game, but if you really want to win a super bowl, you need to have a balanced offense. I know in the past much has been made about needing to do more on offense. I disagreed with that in the past because we consistently had one of the best offenses in the league. However, I agree the offense is a problem this year. We lost one of the best WR's in the league as well as our other deep-threat WR with the ability to stretch the defense (MVS).

I do agree that Watson and Doubs were good picks, and should be given time, but you can't count on rookies, especially if you want to win a Superbowl now.

Also, while I agree that our problems are much deeper than Rodgers, he hasn't been his usual self this year either.

With that being said, it doesn't matter if we fix these issues on offense because this defense isn't any good either. I also don't know why we can't seem to get a good defense, despite spending almost all of our 1st round draft picks on defense, having great players on defense, as well as changing coordinators, going through several.

We really haven't had a super-bowl caliber defense since we had the same core group of players that won the last Superbowl.
 
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gopkrs

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Why don’t coaches know how good a FB/TE can be after he’s been on the field for multiple seasons and they’ve seen him frequently in practice? If he was a truly good receiving option he’d be on the field more often.
You completely missed my point.
 
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In my opinion the team struggling is a combination of a lot of things with several people within the team deserving blame for it.

First of all, I agree with sunshine that Gutekunst is responsible for a lack of talent on the offensive side of the ball.

But he's definitely not the only one. MLF doesn't seem to figure out a way to scheme receivers open (despite having been mentioned repeatedly he's excellent at it compared to MM).

Rodgers misses too many throws for a two time defending MVP. The offensive line can't protect their quarterback or open up holes in the running game.

On the other hand the defense has enough talent but isn't able to perform up to expectations. In my opinion that is on the coaching staff.

Of course it doesn't help the special teams sucked against the Jets either.
 

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Minus Rodgers, I do feel this team is basically in a rebuild. When you keep all ten of your draft picks and then bring in a bunch of guys for special teams, you're going to have growing pains. When you bring back only Lazard and Cobb to the WR group it is going to take time. The TE group is just not good. I know Tonyan had some decent catches yesterday, but he could easily be upgraded and he is the best in the group. The oline is young and Jenkins and Bakh are coming off of injuries. Neither has looked like they once were, especially Jenkins.

The defense has actually looked okay. Reed and Wyatt are both new. Walker, Nixon and Ford are all new. I blame a bit on the defensive scheme and the lack of offensive output that makes this group seem worse than what it is. If they keep losing I expect some coaching changes on this side of the ball.

Short term, they're going to continue to struggle until they find an identity. By my count, there is far too many rookies and free agents on this team to be instantly good and have the chemistry needed to win week in and week out.

Long term, these guys have too much talent to not progress as players and as a team. I said from the start that it will take mid October to early November before this team figures it out. It certainly is trending towards early November and possibly mid November.

I don't think this season is quite lost yet. They need to string some wins together soon to salvage it. I say they can lose four more games the rest of the year before the playoffs are out of the question. The schedule is pretty tough though with the Bills, Cowboys, Eagles, Rams and MN a second time. Tough road ahead.
 

gopkrs

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Did Nixon get hurt? He looked good running back the KO and then Leavitt replaced him. I would give Nixon a try at punt returning also.
 
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The defense has actually looked okay. Reed and Wyatt are both new. Walker, Nixon and Ford are all new. I blame a bit on the defensive scheme and the lack of offensive output that makes this group seem worse than what it is. If they keep losing I expect some coaching changes on this side of the ball.

A lot of people (including me) expected the defense to be elite. Unfortunately the unit hasn't lived up to it over the first six games.

Did Nixon get hurt? He looked good running back the KO and then Leavitt replaced him. I would give Nixon a try at punt returning also.

Nixon was the designated returner on every kickoff by the Jets.
 

gopkrs

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A lot of people (including me) expected the defense to be elite. Unfortunately the unit hasn't lived up to it over the first six games.



Nixon was the designated returner on every kickoff by the Jets.
Yes, you are right. Got mixed up on the numbers. Thought 25 was Leavitt. Thanx.
 
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We need a Win against Washington first and foremost. Our season hinges on this game imo.

If we do that we need to at least split games with Bills and Lions.

That puts us very alive at 5-4 and playing Dallas at Lambeau. Dallas is playing good, but they are not unbeatable either. If we can find a way to get to 6-4 before playing the Titans, we should be able to split games with Tennessee and Philly for 7-5
After that our schedule is not scary at all, it’s relatively pedestrian and imo our toughest contest is the Vikings at Lambeau down the stretch. It’s a schedule where IF our O warms up some? We could win 4 of the last 5.

The way I see it is a win at Washington and 4-3 is now imperative. Sammy Watkins better limp his way through this game and contribute or his career is heading south fast.
 

milani

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We need a Win against Washington first and foremost. Our season hinges on this game imo.

If we do that we need to at least split games with Bills and Lions.

That puts us very alive at 5-4 and playing Dallas at Lambeau. Dallas is playing good, but they are not unbeatable either. If we can find a way to get to 6-4 before playing the Titans, we should be able to split games with Tennessee and Philly for 7-5
After that our schedule is not scary at all, it’s relatively pedestrian and imo our toughest contest is the Vikings at Lambeau down the stretch. It’s a schedule where IF our O warms up some? We could win 4 of the last 5.

The way I see it is a win at Washington and 4-3 is now imperative. Sammy Watkins better limp his way through this game and contribute or his career is heading south fast.
The way it is now it seems like Jim Mora is on our sideline. " Playoffs? Playoffs? Just hoping we can win a game right now. "
 

JoePack

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Wouldn't hurt to really study how the Chiefs are a 2nd half team since we are the opposite.
 

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