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Packers D v. Vikings D

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by DaveRoller, Nov 14, 2015.

  1. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Heard an interesting interview talking about how the Vikings have completely transformed their defensive scheme under new head coach Mike Zimmer and how it has paid huge dividends in just 1.5 seasons. So I decided to take a look at our biggest NFC North competitor's transformation and compare it to our own teams "progress." After doing so, all I can say is wow.

    In 2013, the Leslie Frazier/Alan Williams led Vikings D finished 31st overall (397.6 per game). They were 32nd in the NFL giving up 30 points per game. In 2013, Dom Capers' led Packers D finished 25th overall in the NFL in yardage allowed (372.2) and scoring average (26.8).

    Since the end of the 2013 season, the Vikings have gotten rid of older/unproductive/overpaid defensive players like Kevin Williams (DT). Letroy Guion (DT), Jared Allen (DE), Erin Henderson (LB), Chris Cook (CB) and Jamarca Sanford (S) .

    Since the end of the 2013 season, the Packers have likewise gotten rid of older/unproductive/overpaid defensive players like Ryan Pickett (DT), Johnny Jolly (DT), C.J. Wilson (DT), A.J. Hawk (LB), Brad Jones (LB), Jamari Lattimore (LB), Tramon Williams (CB), Davon House (CB), and M.D. Jennings (S).

    Since the end of the 2013 season, the Vikings have brought in free agent CBs Terrance Newman & Captain Munnerlyn and DTs Linval Joseph and Tom Johnson.

    Through the draft, the Vikings have also added a top flight LB in Anthony Barr. They also added rookies LB Eric Kendricks (who looks good though he has only started 2 games this season) and CB Trae Waynes (who has played way fewer snaps [84] than Randall [405] through 8 games). Backup DEs Scott Crichton & Danielle Hunger were also drafted and play.

    Since the end of 2013, the Packers brought in high-profile free agent Julius Peppers (OLB) as well as FA Letroy Guion (DT). They have also drafted HHCD (S), Damarious Randall (CB), Quinten Rollins (CB), and Jake Ryan (ILB).

    8 games into the 2015 season, the Dom Capers led Packers defense is 23rd overall in yardage allowed (381.2) and 10th in giving up 20.9 points per game.

    Meanwhile, the Mike Zimmer led Vikings D is 7th overall in yardage allowed (332.2) per game. The Vikings are also currently 3rd in the NFL giving up just 17.5 points per game.

    The Vikings improvement on defense under Mike Zimmer shows that a defense can be made better and it can be made better expeditiously. The excuses for the D in GB are getting thinner & thinner.
     
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  2. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    and let's see how it all plays out over the long haul. Teams with success have a tough time maintaining because of all sorts of things from FA's wanting more money, leaving, coaches leaving, drafting lower overall, etc. MN is young and ascending no doubt. Let's see if they can continue and then maintain.

    Just out of curiosity, can you run the numbers and analyze what GB's defense was in the season before Capers got here and what it was in the 2 years after??

    I think we went from bottom third of the league and shot up to top 5 for 2 years in a row and despite leading the league in players on IR we won a super bowl with a top ranked defense. But just for arguments sake and comparing apples to apples, can you compare them for us?
     
  3. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    [QUOTE="Mondio, post: 634134, member: 10441"]

    Just out of curiosity, can you run the numbers and analyze what GB's defense was in the season before Capers got here and what it was in the 2 years after??

    I think we went from bottom third of the league and shot up to top 5 for 2 years in a row and despite leading the league in players on IR we won a super bowl with a top ranked defense. But just for arguments sake and comparing apples to apples, can you compare them for us?[/QUOTE]

    "let's see how it all plays out over the long haul." Why do we need to see how it plays out over the long haul? Is it somehow unfair to compare how GB & Minnesota's respective defenses have changed (or not changed) the past 1.5 seasons?

    "Teams with success have a tough time maintaining because of all sorts of things from FA's wanting more money, leaving, coaches leaving, drafting lower overall, etc." I am looking at how the Viking's defense is performing compared to GB's defense in 2015, not how they hypothetically might finish in 2018 or beyond, though I understand why some would be uncomfortable with focusing on this season. Also, free agents depart from every team for more money every year, including GB where just last offseason Tramon & House left for more $.

    "MN is young." The Vikings are a relatively young team, but not as young as the Green Bay Packers. http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2015/9...-rams-once-again-the-youngest-team-in-the-nfl.

    "can you run the numbers and analyze what GB's defense was in the season before Capers got here and what it was in the 2 years after?? GB 2008 (last year under MM's first DC Bob Sanders), the Pack ranked 20th overall in yards (334.7) and 22nd in points (23.8). In 2010, the Packers were fifth in yardage (309.1) and second in points (15.0). Since Dom's D's banner season in 2010, his defenses have given up an average of 22.4, 21.0, 26.8, 21.8, and 20.9 (2015) in subsequent years.

    "just for arguments sake and comparing apples to apples, can you compare them for us." Guess, I don't follow the "apples to apples" assertion. The Packers had a better D than the Vikes 1.5 years ago and it worse today. That Dom's D in 2010 improved markedly from the 2008 version and has been worse every year since then would, at best, seem to be an argument that he has outlived his usefulness.
     
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  4. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    so basically what you've shown is that in Dom's first 2 years he had GB go from bottom third of the league to twice being in the Top 5 with a #2 overall and a Super Bowl win and think the Vikings have eclipsed that with Zimmer?

    Nothing is complete this year, so i'll wait till the end to see exactly how I'd grade this season, but why wait? Well because it's easy to fix one side of the ball when you haven't been very good overall for a few seasons. They haven't had to maintain a complete team yet or deal with the challenges of success, of which there are many. From coaching and Roster turnover to mental and attitude changes, to contract disputes and on and on.

    But comparing their 1st 2 seasons? Unless MN wins a super bowl this year, I think Dom wins hands down and without question. Comparing the last 2 seasons? Where was MN in January last year? This year has yet to unfold.
     
  5. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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  6. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    The comparison between the transformation of the Vikes D (which has gotten significantly better) and the Packers D (which remains a mediocre to bad unit) since the end of the 2013 season is highly unflattering to the latter squad. Especially because the facts reveal the personnel changes have not been all that different between the two teams.

    But I can certainly understand, given how the Packers D has performed the past 3 games, why some Packer fans want to ignore the present day and pretend it is still 2010.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Can you dig deeper... ( captainWIMM Not You or anyone else)

    I live Dave to dig up the ranking of opposing offense they have faced and compare
     
  8. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    I'm not ignoring anything, the facts are we've had a much better team overall to maintain. This isn't JUST ABOUT DEFENSE. there are special teams, there is an offense, there has been a lot of success and that presents challenges. The Vikings have had to deal with any of that over the recent seasons. Why some fans think running a football team is ONLY about defense will focus ONLY on the defensive stats that fit their agenda
     
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  9. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Perhaps because BJ Raji and Sam Shields were already on the Packers team in 2013, I was comparing the performance of the Vikings D vis-a-vis the Packers D since the end of the 2013, and I looked to see if personnel changes were the reasons for, on the defensive side of the ball, the improvement in Minnesota as opposed to the stagnation in Green Bay.
     
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  10. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    Drafting higher than the late 20s sure helps turn a defense around.
     
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  11. sschind

    sschind Cheesehead

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    Come on longtime, you should know by now that the "you gotta sign free agents" crowd doesn't count the resigning of their own players. I agree with you but those who want Ted to sign more guys will always mean sign more of the other guys guys.

    Not so much talking about you Dave but about the FA fans in general.
     
  12. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    Last edited: Nov 14, 2015
  13. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Anothy Barr, 9th, Trae Waynes 11th, Sharif Floyd 23rd, Xavier Rhodes, 25th, Harrison Smith 29th. Next first round pick is 2006. Chad Greenway.
     
  14. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Interesting you bring that up. See, of the 8 games. They have played 6 common opponents. Only teams they haven't played. The Packer haven't played the Lions yet. And the Vikings haven't played the Panthers, (they play Atlanta) or the Seahawks. These are the defensive stats for those 6 games.

    Code:
                             Pass                            Rush
             Atmpt  Comp  Yards TD  Int Rate  Sacks    Atmpt  Yard YPC TD's
    Vikings    196   122   1348  5   3   84.7   11       170   778   4.6  5
    Packers    226   131   1679  5   8   73.9   21       161   752   4.7  7
    Total points given up.
    Vikings 17.5 per game
    Packers 18.83 per game

    The only game the Packer had any significant major difference in being better than the Vikings was in San Fran were they gave up 153 yards less rushing than the Packers. But I think the Vikings made that up with the passing games of the Bronco's (Vikes gave up 127 less) and Chargers. (Vikes gave up 194 less)
     
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  15. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    There's much more to a draft than the 1st round. The point of my post was when a team has a consistently better draft position, it's much easier to improve quickly.
     
  16. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    I think our (GB) #10 scoring Defense who just gave up 37pts in Carolina will improve their placing by playoffs.
    Conversely, I predict the MN Defense will regress from their current position in that allotted time.
     
  17. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I'm sure the Packers would have looooved to have a chance at Anthony Barr!
     
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  18. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I think the one time where GB whiffed on the draft and Minn drafted a better player behind GB was 2013 (?) when the Packers drafted Nick Perry and Minny got Harrison Smith. Smith would have been a fine addition at S to the Packer defense after losing Nick Collins in 2011.

    Smith had an outstanding season last year.
     
  19. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    While re-signing your own core players is important it most likely doesn't make the team any better. This thread is about the improvement of the Vikings defense over the last 1.5 years though.

    Agreed. The original poster should have considered that Smith missing half the season was probably one of the reasons for the Vikings defense struggling in 2013. Him being healthy is for sure one of the reasons for their unit's improvement.

    BTW both Perry and Smith were drafted in 2012.
     
  20. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    Thanks. I was going to have to look that up when the dead horse about draft position emerged.
     
  21. Half Empty

    Half Empty Cheesehead

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    Nor, in context, should they. When re-signing one of your own, you're sure of what you're getting, both in terms of talent and of team chemistry. Much less evaluation required. The trick then becomes the negotiating.
     
  22. DaveRoller

    DaveRoller Cheesehead

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    Thanks for the enlightening the board Raptor about how the Vikings' impressive defensive improvement the past 1.5 years is NOT due to a bunch of high draft picks.

    Some Packer fans are in such deep denial that they pretend our D is filled with a bunch of scrubs instead of 7 first round picks, including Peppers 2nd overall, Raji 9th, Clinton-Dix 21st, Matthews 26th, D. Jones 26th, Perry 28th, and Randall 30th. Heck if you include Greenway (taken 17th in the 2006 draft), we should probably acknowledge that our D could still have the services of the 5th overall pick from that same draft, the incomparable A.J. Hawk, if we wanted.
     
  23. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    We are only halfway through the season. Would make sense to wait until the season is over to draw any king of big conclusions about the defense.
     
  24. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    Since 2012 the Packers have drafted 7 Defensive players in the first and second round. The Vikings have drafted 6. Maybe Speilman is just a better drafter now that he has full control. Remember, some of these guys they traded up to get.
     
  25. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Of course having multiple years with multiple 1st round picks would have nothing to do it would it? and I really, really doubt that consistenlty picking in the top 3rd of the round compared to the bottom of the round has anything to do with it either.

    For example, in 2013 the Vikings had not 1 but TWO picks in the first round before Green Bay made a single selection. But of course that has nothing to do with it.
     

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