Move CB up draft board

[HardRightEdge]

Yes, you should. You seem to be committed to the idea that is the only possible way we'll be any good this year.

Actually, I'm not sure what is defined as "hell of a draft" but I expect we'll see the typical one or two draftees starting, a few more contributing in the depth and on special teams.

I did put it in my signature line. It does appear to be the only plausible way the defense will be "good" this year. There's a good chance Capers can just roll the ball out there and the Packers win the division. I would not be satisfied if that's as far as it goes.

Two draftees starting is not typical, and certainly not on opening day. Raji and Matthews were the last opening day rookie starter pair, and the Packers will not have that kind of draft position even with a trade up.

A "h*ll of a draft" would mean two starting-quality guys who don't make the kinds of serial mistakes rookies are prone to. That's particularly important with Hayward unproven at cover corner.

 

[Shawnsta3]

The CB and NT options have been exhausted. The bona fide castoffs will come after the draft and particularly during preseason cut downs.

It's not likely the defense will "absolutely suck", though I would not rule it out entirely. However, there is a good chance it will not be championship caliber.

I agree Thompson has not done enough yet this offseason on defense. Though the definition of championship caliber is murky at best with the Ravens and a few others winning the big one with middling defenses (16th) in recent memory. (The Packers ranked 7th last year.)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...OTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

 

[HardRightEdge]

There aren't any CBs available in free agency I'm interested in. Red Bryant would be an option for the NT positions though. With him being cut he won't result in the Packers losing a compensatory pick as well.

I give that a qualified "agree". Bryant has played primarily DE over his career, and has not played any NT so far as I can tell. He looks the part, and the way he plays would indicates he could transition at least as a one-gap NT. Though not an optimal solution, I'd prefer Bryant to rolling the dice on Raji finding his motor.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I give that a qualified "agree". Bryant has played primarily DE over his career, and has not played any NT so far as I can tell. He looks the part, and the way he plays would indicates he could transition at least as a one-gap NT. Though not an optimal solution, I'd prefer Bryant to rolling the dice on Raji finding his motor.

I think Bryant would excel playing the run as a NT in a 3-4, he won't provide any pass rush though (which I would be fine with). I would be fine with bringing Raji back on another prove-it deal but don't feel comfortable entering the season with him being the starter with no depth at the position.

 

[RRyder]

As of right now Thompson needs to find a starter at NT and ILB, a dime corner and some depth at inside linebacker in this year's draft. That's a tough task to accomplish.

I really dont think its that tough to do between now and the start of the season.

We'll have our starting NT when we resign Raji and Guion. If either or both of them leave then ill be in agreement and will worry but i'm pretty confident those two can and will/would be quality starters, or rotation, at NT for us. We can still draft one to develop and potentially contribute but just for next season im good if we get those two signed

Im very confident in Hayward stepping into Tramons spot and find it curious that people dont think he's fast enough to play outside. He's faster then Tramon at this point. Finding a dime CB really shouldnt be overly difficult for TT given his track record. Like I said I think Hayward will be fine so ita not like we need a starter year one. We need a number 4 CB. Really if u cant expect a CB to contribute in the dime package at least his rookie year then thats a CB you prolly shouldnt be drafting before the 6th round anyways.

ILB is a need that must be addressed and will be in my opinion in the 1st and then again in prolly the 5th or so with TT taking a flier on one to hedge his bets.

Really ILB is my only position of concern barring injuries. If TT cant find a starter there in the draft we could be in some trouble but a dime CB in even the middle rounds is more then doable and NT Im feeling good if we retain Raji n Guion

 

[PackerDNA]

Be proactive instead of reactive. While we hardly, if ever know what goes on behind the scenes, I wonder why guys like Wilfork and Williams among others weren't even contacted as far as we know. The idea of 'well, we'll just resign Raji and Guion and problem solved' isn't solving anything. It's taking what you're given, and hoping it turns out okay.
Hope is not a plan.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I really dont think its that tough to do between now and the start of the season.

We'll have our starting NT when we resign Raji and Guion. If either or both of them leave then ill be in agreement and will worry but i'm pretty confident those two can and will/would be quality starters, or rotation, at NT for us. We can still draft one to develop and potentially contribute but just for next season im good if we get those two signed

Im very confident in Hayward stepping into Tramons spot and find it curious that people dont think he's fast enough to play outside. He's faster then Tramon at this point. Finding a dime CB really shouldnt be overly difficult for TT given his track record. Like I said I think Hayward will be fine so ita not like we need a starter year one. We need a number 4 CB. Really if u cant expect a CB to contribute in the dime package at least his rookie year then thats a CB you prolly shouldnt be drafting before the 6th round anyways.

ILB is a need that must be addressed and will be in my opinion in the 1st and then again in prolly the 5th or so with TT taking a flier on one to hedge his bets.

Really ILB is my only position of concern barring injuries. If TT cant find a starter there in the draft we could be in some trouble but a dime CB in even the middle rounds is more then doable and NT Im feeling good if we retain Raji n Guion

As of right now the Packers haven't re-signed either Raji or Guion though. While it's possible Thompson brings one of them back they could agree to terms with another team as well. In addition Guion will probably be suspended for several games.

I would feel more comfortable if there's at least another CB on the roster capable of challenging Hayward for the starting spot. You have to realize that while Hayward had four of his interceptions playing outside in 2012 he was beaten deep too often (30.2 yards per completion) and he has hardly played the position during the last two seasons.

The team should be able to get a dime corner in the draft but it's another pick they have to be successful with.

 

[RRyder]

Be proactive instead of reactive. While we hardly, if ever know what goes on behind the scenes, I wonder why guys like Wilfork and Williams among others weren't even contacted as far as we know. The idea of 'well, we'll just resign Raji and Guion and problem solved' isn't solving anything. It's taking what you're given, and hoping it turns out okay.
Hope is not a plan.

Well Williams was offered a contract. He was offered 4 million a year and then later 5. He got 7 from Cleveland. Good for him.

Nobody really knows how many players we actually talked to n what our offers were but hey its all conjecture at this point.

Im pretty sure the plan isnt hope. The plan just maybe Is to try n sign Raji n Guion for as lil as possible right now and see if a monster NT falls to us in the draft rather then just signing them right now for more then TT feels comfortable with and then maybe upping our offers to either of them if no NT is found early after the draft.

Id be good with that plan. And it isnt hope

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well Williams was offered a contract. He was offered 4 million a year and then later 5. He got 7 from Cleveland. Good for him.

Nobody really knows how many players we actually talked to n what our offers were but hey its all conjecture at this point.

Im pretty sure the plan isnt hope. The plan just maybe Is to try n sign Raji n Guion for as lil as possible right now and see if a monster NT falls to us in the draft rather then just signing them right now for more then TT feels comfortable with and then maybe upping our offers to either of them if no NT is found early after the draft.

Id be good with that plan. And it isnt hope

Guion may be available after the draft but I expect all other viable free agent options to be gone at that point.

 

[PackerDNA]

I meant the NT from Arizona Williams.
My bad.
"see if a monster NT falls to us in the draft" is 100% hope. Hope that one is there when we pick, and that he turns out to be a monster if we do get him. Odds are- based on their history, ability and production, that resigning Raji and/or Guion aren't improvements; they're hoping for the best, which in the case of those two would be for the most part adequate at best.

 

[RRyder]

As of right now the Packers haven't re-signed either Raji or Guion though. While it's possible Thompson brings one of them back they could agree to terms with another team as well. In addition Guion will probably be suspended for several games.

I would feel more comfortable if there's at least another CB on the roster capable of challenging Hayward for the starting spot. You have to realize that while Hayward had four of his interceptions playing outside in 2012 he was beaten deep too often (30.2 yards per completion) and he has hardly played the position during the last two seasons.

The team should be able to get a dime corner in the draft but it's another pick they have to be successful with.

Dont get me wrong. I agree with pretty much everything u said. Niether Raji or Guion is signed but yet niether has left for another team yet either. But yet ill concede that untill they resign it can be considered a worry and as I said if either leaves Ill agree completly. Im just not all that worried we'll resign them at this point.

Im not against drafting a CB to potentially challenge Hayward or that im saying 100% that he'll be great. Just that im comfortable with him being able to step up his game. I could be wrong. But if I cant be confident in a high pick thats shown plenty of promise and a few years of experience under his belt then what knd of player can u feel good about stepping up his game? Still though when talking about "needs" to fill I dont think finding a starter is a "must" and feel good about finding a dime in the draft

Was simply trying to say that I dont think the needs u listed as NT, CB and ILB are going to be that much of a tall order due to me believing Raji n Guion will be retained and my confidence in Hayward and as such I view our needs as ILB and dime CB. Those two needs we should be able to fill

 

[PackerDNA]

I have concerns about Hayward, but I have more concerns about our lack of depth at the position.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Dont get me wrong. I agree with pretty much everything u said. Niether Raji or Guion is signed but yet niether has left for another team yet either. But yet ill concede that untill they resign it can be considered a worry and as I said if either leaves Ill agree completly. Im just not all that worried we'll resign them at this point.

Im not against drafting a CB to potentially challenge Hayward or that im saying 100% that he'll be great. Just that im comfortable with him being able to step up his game. I could be wrong. But if I cant be confident in a high pick thats shown plenty of promise and a few years of experience under his belt then what knd of player can u feel good about stepping up his game? Still though when talking about "needs" to fill I dont think finding a starter is a "must" and feel good about finding a dime in the draft

Was simply trying to say that I dont think the needs u listed as NT, CB and ILB are going to be that much of a tall order due to me believing Raji n Guion will be retained and my confidence in Hayward and as such I view our needs as ILB and dime CB. Those two needs we should be able to fill

Even if Hayward turns out to be a reliable starter on the outside the Packers at least need to add depth to the position.

We'll sew what happens with Raji and/or Guion but no matter what I would like Thompson to draft another NT with an early pick.

There's no denying ILB is the position in most dire need of an upgrade with the team having to find a player capable of playing all three downs and add some depth as well.

 

[Ogsponge]

I agree Thompson has not done enough yet this offseason on defense. Though the definition of championship caliber is murky at best with the Ravens and a few others winning the big one with middling defenses (16th) in recent memory. (The Packers ranked 7th last year.)

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...OTAL_YARDS_GAME_AVG&d-447263-o=1&d-447263-n=1

The defense was not bad overall last year, they were also 13th in points allowed which is much more important stat that yards. The problem with this defense is that it very rarely steps up in crunch time when it matters the most, with the NFCCG being the most recent. I still believe the bigger overall problem with this defense is that they are mentally weak and soft. Lets look at the accomplishments of this defense starting in 2009:

2009 - highest scoring game in NFL playoff history, with the Packers losing and the defense giving up 51 points.

2010 - turnover creating machine, everything was good, obviously

2011 - after an historic offensive season, a 15-1 record, a first round bye, the defense allows the NY Giants to score 37 points on the Packers home turf, which by the way was nearly 2 TD's more than the Giants season avg.

2012 - after managing to hold the powerful Minnesota Vikings being QB by a wide receiver to 10 points, off to Candlestick they go and give up 45 points and and an NFL record for rushing yards by a QB in the game. Who was this QB of apparently mammoth proportions? The completely underwhelming and average at best QB Collin Kaepernick.

2013 - I can't really say much here other than the fact that this was a defense completely decimated by injury and the they gave it their best shot but ended up short vs the 49ers again.

2014 - good enough game against a dangerous Dallas team but then...here comes the biggest 2nd half collapse in conference championship history blowing a 16 point halftime lead, and allowing 15 points in the final two minutes of the game to force overtime.

So lets recap:

1. A SB victory, awesome!
2. games where the defense gave up, 51, 45 and 37 points, wtf...
3. NFL record for rushing yards by a QB, wtf....
4. NFL record for largest collapse in conference championship game history, wtf...

people can talk about anything and everything under the sun when it comes to this defense, but there is quite simply one of two things going on here.

1. the defense is soft and mentally weak when the pressure is on.
2. the coaching staff has the defense horribly ill-prepared to compete when the pressure is on

The kinds of things that this defense has been part of in the playoffs are simply unacceptable and do not happen to teams that have the above two things I mentioned. At least not in this quantity. This team has lost in the playoffs 4 of 6 years in rather horribly pathetic and often historic fashion

This is caused by more than just the personnel on the field.

 

[rodell330]

I'm sure the "great" TT has a brilliant plan as to why he hasn't signed anyone haha

 

[HardRightEdge]

The defense was not bad overall last year, they were also 13th in points allowed which is much more important stat that yards. The problem with this defense is that it very rarely steps up in crunch time when it matters the most, with the NFCCG being the most recent. I still believe the bigger overall problem with this defense is that they are mentally weak and soft. Lets look at the accomplishments of this defense starting in 2009:

2009 - highest scoring game in NFL playoff history, with the Packers losing and the defense giving up 51 points.

2010 - turnover creating machine, everything was good, obviously

2011 - after an historic offensive season, a 15-1 record, a first round bye, the defense allows the NY Giants to score 37 points on the Packers home turf, which by the way was nearly 2 TD's more than the Giants season avg.

2012 - after managing to hold the powerful Minnesota Vikings being QB by a wide receiver to 10 points, off to Candlestick they go and give up 45 points and and an NFL record for rushing yards by a QB in the game. Who was this QB of apparently mammoth proportions? The completely underwhelming and average at best QB Collin Kaepernick.

2013 - I can't really say much here other than the fact that this was a defense completely decimated by injury and the they gave it their best shot but ended up short vs the 49ers again.

2014 - good enough game against a dangerous Dallas team but then...here comes the biggest 2nd half collapse in conference championship history blowing a 16 point halftime lead, and allowing 15 points in the final two minutes of the game to force overtime.

So lets recap:

1. A SB victory, awesome!
2. games where the defense gave up, 51, 45 and 37 points, wtf...
3. NFL record for rushing yards by a QB, wtf....
4. NFL record for largest collapse in conference championship game history, wtf...

people can talk about anything and everything under the sun when it comes to this defense, but there is quite simply one of two things going on here.

1. the defense is soft and mentally weak when the pressure is on.
2. the coaching staff has the defense horribly ill-prepared to compete when the pressure is on

The kinds of things that this defense has been part of in the playoffs are simply unacceptable and do not happen to teams that have the above two things I mentioned. At least not in this quantity. This team has lost in the playoffs 4 of 6 years in rather horribly pathetic and often historic fashion

This is caused by more than just the personnel on the field.

It's been a brittle defense, to be sure. I'll hold my "fire Capers" comments for the regular season.

 

[HardRightEdge]

You have to realize that while Hayward had four of his interceptions playing outside in 2012 he was beaten deep too often (30.2 yards per completion) and he has hardly played the position during the last two seasons.

That's why the book is still open on whether he's more than just a zone corner. He's a ball hawk without the recovery speed if he missteps.

 

[Ogsponge]

It's been a brittle defense, to be sure. I'll hold my "fire Capers" comments for the regular season.

For the record, I was not at this time making a fire Capers post either, simply stating what seems painfully obvious to me which is that there seems to be a serious lack of intestinal fortitude from the defense on the biggest stage. Although if we were really to put the offense under a microscope as well, they are not really well known for coming up big in crunch time either.

 

[HardRightEdge]

For the record, I was not at this time making a fire Capers post....

I understand. Few do. It's a refined taste.

 

[RRyder]

Its all perspective when you start saying "crunch time" in regards to our offense and defense. In the list above the defensive game against Seattle is listed as a slight against our D for failing in the clutch. But really they forced 4 turnovers and kept Seattle largly in check. The offence dropped the ball that gane pur and simple. The D played more then well enough to win.

The point im makeing by pointing that out is you can take a look at any single game we've ever lost and point to either the D or the O falling short or strait up stinking it up. We lost. Of course something went wrong that game. But pointing to playoff loses as proof while dismissing the playoff wins as fools gold is folly.

Lets just try an exercise. Lets take a look at all our loss' s this year and lets see which side of the ball gets the blame.

Week 1 Seattle: Really both sides get to share the blame

Week 3 Detroit: The D played lights out. This ones on the Offense.

Week 8 NO: We were hanging with them till Rodgers knicked his hammy but this loss we can put on the Defense.

Week 15: Rodgers has the worst game of his career. This ones on the Offense.

NFCCG Seattle: Like I said above. D kept them in check till the final few minutes. Plus added 4 turnovers to the Packers cause. This ones on the offense.

Now you can add up the games where the offense bailed out the D this year also but really id only put the first Bears game in that category and maybe the Jets game.

I guess what im sayin is for all the talk about how some think the defense is Achilles heal and take the blame for the Packers not winning the SB but just this past season id say when you can only put one loss, the NO game, and a share in another, Week 1 Seattle, the D might just not be as horrible as people think

 

[PackerDNA]

I guess what im sayin is for all the talk about how some think the defense is Achilles heal and take the blame for the Packers not winning the SB but just this past season id say when you can only put one loss, the NO game, and a share in another, Week 1 Seattle, the D might just not be as horrible as people think[/QUOTE]

Or maybe the O might not be as good as people think.
Great post, RRyder.

 

[Carl]

The defense was not bad overall last year, they were also 13th in points allowed which is much more important stat that yards. The problem with this defense is that it very rarely steps up in crunch time when it matters the most, with the NFCCG being the most recent. I still believe the bigger overall problem with this defense is that they are mentally weak and soft. Lets look at the accomplishments of this defense starting in 2009:

2009 - highest scoring game in NFL playoff history, with the Packers losing and the defense giving up 51 points.

2010 - turnover creating machine, everything was good, obviously

2011 - after an historic offensive season, a 15-1 record, a first round bye, the defense allows the NY Giants to score 37 points on the Packers home turf, which by the way was nearly 2 TD's more than the Giants season avg.

2012 - after managing to hold the powerful Minnesota Vikings being QB by a wide receiver to 10 points, off to Candlestick they go and give up 45 points and and an NFL record for rushing yards by a QB in the game. Who was this QB of apparently mammoth proportions? The completely underwhelming and average at best QB Collin Kaepernick.

2013 - I can't really say much here other than the fact that this was a defense completely decimated by injury and the they gave it their best shot but ended up short vs the 49ers again.

2014 - good enough game against a dangerous Dallas team but then...here comes the biggest 2nd half collapse in conference championship history blowing a 16 point halftime lead, and allowing 15 points in the final two minutes of the game to force overtime.

So lets recap:

1. A SB victory, awesome!
2. games where the defense gave up, 51, 45 and 37 points, wtf...
3. NFL record for rushing yards by a QB, wtf....
4. NFL record for largest collapse in conference championship game history, wtf...

people can talk about anything and everything under the sun when it comes to this defense, but there is quite simply one of two things going on here.

1. the defense is soft and mentally weak when the pressure is on.
2. the coaching staff has the defense horribly ill-prepared to compete when the pressure is on

The kinds of things that this defense has been part of in the playoffs are simply unacceptable and do not happen to teams that have the above two things I mentioned. At least not in this quantity. This team has lost in the playoffs 4 of 6 years in rather horribly pathetic and often historic fashion

This is caused by more than just the personnel on the field.

The defense was not the only issue leading to points vs. New York and Seattle. Four turnovers by our offense played a huge role in 2011. Against Seattle the offense not moving the ball and special teams giving the ball right back contributed as well.

 

[rodell330]

The defense is marginal at best...end of story. What happened the last time Aaron Rodgers played with a good defense? Oh yea..we won the SB!! The Seattle game will ALWAYS be a reminder that no matter how sucky you play on offense as long as you can depend on your defense to keep it close ANYTHING can happen! It only takes a big play or two and you can still win a game where you're offense basically got shut out 52 minutes of the game.

 

[Ogsponge]

Its all perspective when you start saying "crunch time" in regards to our offense and defense. In the list above the defensive game against Seattle is listed as a slight against our D for failing in the clutch. But really they forced 4 turnovers and kept Seattle largly in check. The offence dropped the ball that gane pur and simple. The D played more then well enough to win.

The point im makeing by pointing that out is you can take a look at any single game we've ever lost and point to either the D or the O falling short or strait up stinking it up. We lost. Of course something went wrong that game. But pointing to playoff loses as proof while dismissing the playoff wins as fools gold is folly.

Lets just try an exercise. Lets take a look at all our loss' s this year and lets see which side of the ball gets the blame.

Week 1 Seattle: Really both sides get to share the blame

Week 3 Detroit: The D played lights out. This ones on the Offense.

Week 8 NO: We were hanging with them till Rodgers knicked his hammy but this loss we can put on the Defense.

Week 15: Rodgers has the worst game of his career. This ones on the Offense.

NFCCG Seattle: Like I said above. D kept them in check till the final few minutes. Plus added 4 turnovers to the Packers cause. This ones on the offense.

Now you can add up the games where the offense bailed out the D this year also but really id only put the first Bears game in that category and maybe the Jets game.

I guess what im sayin is for all the talk about how some think the defense is Achilles heal and take the blame for the Packers not winning the SB but just this past season id say when you can only put one loss, the NO game, and a share in another, Week 1 Seattle, the D might just not be as horrible as people think

1. I said the offense is actually pretty bad in crunch time.
2. When was the last time you can remember a game ending and saying to yourself thankfully the defense stepped up and saved the day?

If you are being 100% honest with yourself, you will be trying to figure it out for a long time.

 

[rodell330]

1. I said the offense is actually pretty bad in crunch time.
2. When was the last time you can remember a game ending and saying to yourself thankfully the defense stepped up and saved the day?

If you are being 100% honest with yourself, you will be trying to figure it out for a long time.

This is true haha