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Mike Neal And Cj2k

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Croak, Sep 7, 2011.

  1. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I'm sorry, but I have to post this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsegTiuEoq8
     
  2. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Can't log into the site. It says some of the content may be inappropriate, so I'm not gonna bother. Are you honestly trying to say today's TV is more moral than it was in the 50's and early 60's? Really?
     
  3. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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  4. okcpackerfan

    okcpackerfan Cheesehead

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    you're right, on the honeymooners, jackie gleason threatening to punch his wife every episode was very moral. If you think the past was so much better please just go back there. Every generation thinks they have all the answers and they usually grow old enough to realize they don't.
     
  5. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Three letters will demonstrate the big difference between then and now....M...T....V. OKC; I'd rather fight to restore former values than have to live with consequences of Rome Redux.
     
  6. okcpackerfan

    okcpackerfan Cheesehead

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    I don't think you realize you are STILL subjecting a whole generation to your own personal bias and stereotypes. That sounds oddly familiar to another thing that was more rampant in the past than it is now, racism. I suggest you get outside more and interact with younger people, you would be surprised how intelligent, respectful, and nice we are - despite our baggy jeans and headphones.
     
  7. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Maybe, but apparently I'm not alone; Gallup polls note that 76% of Americans feel morality is getting worse. They think morality is some of the worst in a decade, let alone 5 or 6 decades.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/128042/americans-outlook-morality-remains-bleak.aspx
     
  8. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Never made the point that today's TV is more or less moral. We have Jersey Shore, for crying out loud.

    The point is, you're painting the past with rose-collored glasses. You said that the past TV's shows had more moral, which is clearly false. Beating up women was thought of as banal.

    Both generations have faults and merits. It's different. Not worse.

    People were generally more polite back then, but it was because communities were much more closed, and people knew each other more.

    Nowadays, with the speed of everything, it's not common anymore to say hello to people, because there are simply too many of them.

    But what is thought of as better isn't. It's because communities were more closed, that minorities such as blacks and hispanics were much, MUCH more disciminated than nowadays. It doesn't mean everybody did it, but it was A LOT more common. My late granpa still used to shudder everytime he saw a black man on a prominent role, because in his days it didn't happen.

    You might think it's better, because to you it was. But to a lot of people it wasn't.
     
  9. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    MTV is for the prior generation. It's already passed.

    And past generations provided Jimmy the Greek, for that matter.

    As I said, rose-collored glasses. I know fully well the faults of my generation. You don't seem to recognize yours'.
     
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  10. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    You know I think some of you guys may be a part of the 14% that Gallup mentions. RS, our generations definitely had faults, no doubt. Every generation does. But that doesn't refute the idea that things are declining. It's just using what is know as the "tuo quoque" argument. It doesn't get to the point it just skirts the issue by trying to point out that "well, yeah, but YOU did this." To keep this back on target; some of you defend Mike Neal and CJ2K when they are rude to fans. I won't defend them.

    But as I said; I think some of you sincerely see things in a better light, even though Gallup notes that you are the large minority in that view. However, majority doesn't make a view right either, does it? Sometimes the majority is wrong. But I would ask? If 76% think things are declining; why do they think so if it isn't true?

    For you guys that seem to want to be Men's men, here is an interesting website. I don't agree with everything on it, and you probably won't either, but it has some good points. One of my adult sons pointed this one out to me.

    http://artofmanliness.com/2011/08/19/lose-with-dignity-celebrate-with-grace-part-i/
     
  11. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    The large minority in Gallup's poll.

    I never responded to that poll. How limited that poll is, anyway? Who answered those polls? How many people?

    You seem to be arguing for the sake of making a point, rather than debating what's being responded. Never disputed how putrid SOCIETY is. But it's not a new thing, it's just affecting YOU now.

    It can even come down to more philosophical discussions. Even if you consider that the majority feels it's better, which that polls doesn't even begin to prove, how good is a society that only helps the majority? Can you say a society that helps more poeple, but still can't manage to help ALL people, is good?
     
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  12. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Oh, and it's a close to 3 minute (2:40) compilation with shows of the past showing women being slapped around. It shows somewhere from 15 to 20 different shows and movies, where women are slapped abundantly. All natural, some of them even like it.
     
  13. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    My grandfather thought Elvis was garbage. My father puts up with hiphop but doesnt seem to be a big fan. I think emo music is terrible. eghh no generation is a fan of the one your kids are in it seems. This has been an interesting conversation and I by no means have been offended or upset at anything that has been said. Glad to see this be civil. aaaaand cue me getting on the soapbox...

    I have managed apartments, by far the worst apt building I ever dealt with was 55+. I had a nun who would make people cry. I would post a notice and they would tear it up and throw it on the ground. They would get in groups and haze a lone tenant. I saw them hit others cars in parking lots, look around and drive off. They would threaten me with legal action over anything and was physically threatened 1 time as well (I told him hips break easy and I think he got point). They would try and listen in on my business conversations. It seriously never ended. It was worse than children and while not the entire building was contributing to the issues, I would say at least 75% were. Im not exactly thrilled with this generations elderly myself.
     
  14. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Women love to be hit. They also love to stay home and cook. ;) (kitten should have her claws out in 3... 2...)
     
  15. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    RS, you're right. I'm out of line to question the defense of a player's rude behavior. It's totally understandable and acceptable today because today's values are so much better than the wife beaters, bigots and child molesters who fought a World War to have the right to beat women, molest children and segregate whole sections of the population.
     
  16. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Don't get me started on emo music...
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Again, I never debated it, questioning a player's rude behavior. Never once said it was acceptable. And that was not the point of the thread in the first place, was it? Defending or not a player. And again you generalize and come up with today being better than the past, or vice versa. Never said that past generations where wife beaters and child molesters and segregationists.

    I'll ask you again, who are you debating with? It's certainly not me, because you seem to bring up points that I've never made.

    So... watchoo talkin bout Willis?

    Again, my whole point is that you seem to think that the past generation's morale was better, but it was only better to the male white american. And, no, again, I'm not nor was ever making a point that today's morale is better.

    All I'm saying is you're looking at things with rose-colored glasses and forgetting to analize the whole situation, that things were as bad as they are now in the past. That society is bad in general, not today or yesterday. Sure, there are nice people then, as there is now.

    But what you're doing, you're generalizing. You can NEVER be right when generalizing. Unless it's about how good the Packers are, and how the bears still suck.
     
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  18. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    The op regarded Neal's rude comments about the fans. One person agreed with me. Then others started piling on in defense of Neal. I mentioned that I felt I was an anachronism because I was taught values from a generation that generally frowned upon such behavior. Then it basically became "shut up old man, your generations were terrible too."
     
  19. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Okay, that's fair, but I was never the perpetrator of any such remarks.

    Only fair to respond to me with what I said, and not what others said, don't you think? Because I'm the last guy to defend this generation, and I never did such thing.
     
  20. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Your posts blended in with IVO's probably because IVO used your post to say how "women love to be hit" and when you described the video he posted, it appeared you were agreeing with him. I see now that you didn't approve of Neal's behavior. Nor were you necessarily agreeing with IVO.
     
  21. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    Hey guys, who wants to talk about how much CJ2K deserved all that money and held out, when this happens afterwards

    [​IMG]

    Take a real long good hard look at this before arguing that he deserved all that money, and held out like he's god's gift, and this is him after he got his money, he can lay down now.
     
  22. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    “The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants… They contradict their parents, chatter before company… and tyrannize their teachers.”

    Croak, while I understand your complaints about succeeding generations, complaining about the "current" generation is as old as recorded history. The quote above, although it’s author is uncertain, has been attributed to Socrates by Plato, hundreds of years BC. And whenever I hear about the lack of civility today I think about how many of our rightly "sainted" Founders "played politics" after our founding. They regularly spread ugly personal rumors about their political opponents and even wrote anonymous letters to newspapers defaming each other.

    As a fellow old timer I thought I’d chime in and emphasize some of what has been posted. I think what you may be missing is what some fans said about Neal hurt his feelings. IMO it’s as simple as that. It’s been mentioned but I think it’s worth repeating: Remember during the Favre fiasco, Rodgers was treated horribly by some Packers “fans” and according to him one particular “fan” approached him and said, “F you”. If “the customer is always right”, I guess Rodgers response should have been, “Thanks for your input.” And when fans “tell” Neal or when Neal learns some fans are calling him a bust, if he were perfect he would either not respond or say something similar to “Thanks for your input”. But as a flawed human being – like all the rest of us – he responded emotionally and said he doesn’t care what fans think of him.

    Although I believe it was a completely emotional response, let’s break it down logically: Neal said, “If I was in this to please the fans, I wouldn't play. I could care less what anybody's saying or how they feel about me. My thing is just to come in here and do my job." If he gets and stays healthy, he will be doing his job. If he does his job, he will please Packers fans even though in his emotional outburst he says he doesn’t care about the fans. IMO he obviously cares about the fans and because he cares he was hurt by what some have said about him. IMO this is no more a reflection of Mike Neal’s character than this 2008 excerpt from Sports Illustrated is a reflection of Rodgers’: “Asked whether he feels pressure to connect with the fans the way Favre did, Rodgers answers unequivocally. “I don't feel I need to sell myself to the fans," he says. "They need to get on board now or keep their mouths shut."

    Rodgers was responding emotionally to a comparison to Favre and Neal was responding emotionally to a comparison to Harrell.

    Finally, old timer to fellow old timer, I humbly suggest that when the subject of the current generation comes up, think first of our all-volunteer military and the incredible bravery hundreds of thousands of “youngsters” display daily. Still bitch if it makes you feel better but that should at least provide some perspective.
     
  23. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    I can accept some of what you posted. I think you are right, Neal didn't think about what he was tweeting. He seems to be a sincere young man. Apparently someone talked to him because he quit tweeting, so there is some substance to what I originally posted. However, I was too harsh on the kid.

    As for generational differences, I still think there is a large cultural difference between this generation and "the greatest generation" also known as "the silents". I know it's only a name given by a writer. It's probably not the greatest generation that ever lived. That would be hard to compare. But still there is something there.Yes, there are those who work hard in every generation. So this is valid as well.

    Here is an article that details some of the sociological differences between generations. http://www.amanet.org/training/articles/Leading-the-Four-Generations-at-Work.aspx

    How can I say this the right way? I don't think an appeal to a volunteer army is a valid representation of this generation. While those who are willing to sacrifice can be respected, I question the original motivation of many in today's volunteer army. How many of them joined so they could get a free ride in college? How many of them joined because there was nothing else they knew how to do? Mind you, I don't discourage them from the military, because I've seen it really shape and turn around some lives. But the crux lies in motive to see what I'm talking about. Most of the silents were anxious to enlist because of a moral imperative. It was embarassing to be "left behind". Today is not like that.

    Yes there are those who enlist today due to a moral imperative, but it's still not quite the same. Does that make sense?
     
  24. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Croak, I believe I do understand what you’re saying, I just think it lacks an historical perspective. As I posted above, complaining about the younger generation is as old as history itself.

    Many trends in societies are cyclical. For example, look at the change in “morals” as expressed in popular culture in the 1920s (the “roaring 20s”) in the US. Then look at the late '40s to the 1950s and a more strict moral code was generally in place. The 1960s saw the pendulum swing back the other way. While there are aspects of our culture which tend to further moral decay IMO, look at the growth of Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in the US and around the world: Even though they are comprised of fallible humans, wouldn’t you agree they are an example of a force in society for a higher moral code?

    I don’t agree with slighting our current military. Listen to some old and/or retired military leaders talk about them. And no matter what their reason for joining, their bravery in combat should not be minimized IMO. You mentioned after the US entered WWII, many joined to avoid being embarrassed at being left behind. That’s hardly a noble motive but in the end it just didn’t matter why they joined. It mattered that they joined and what they did after they joined. And as you say, generally military experience is a benefit to society.

    IMO the portion of the linked article you provided was most interesting to this conversation was its comparison of the Millennials or Generation Ys – Mike Neal’s generation – to the “Silents”. It says the Millennials, “… represent the most team-centric generation since the Silents… A major influence from Boomer parents is their willingness to work hard and set goals to achieve the lifestyle they want. They also share many of the common values of patriotism and family from the Silents era.” I added the emphasis but doesn’t the portion I quoted seem to contradict the view you express here?

    You did admit you were too harsh on Neal and I applaud you for doing so. My basic point is this: Throughout history although shaped by the cultures and circumstances in which they find themselves, people are people. Regarding this conversation, younger generations revolt against the authority of older ones in some way or another and the older generations resent that rebellion. “What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.” – Ecclesiastes 1:9
     
  25. Croak

    Croak Terminally twisted.

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    Your post makes a good deal of sense. I am usually more interested in military history. But to understand military history one must understand the historical culture surrounding each military engagement. I follow a linear view of history rather than the popular circular view (i.e. history repeats itself). However, the posited idea of a pendulum theory regarding morals seems to have certain credence. This especially if you take the view that each generation rebels against the previous. Then the Millenials would theoretically be more moral than the boomers because the boomers brought the 60's free love, sex and drugs. However, I tend to view morality from my linear view which means it will either be progressively improving or decaying. My view of human nature points me to a view that would lean toward human nature decaying. But perhaps it is improving and I fail to see it. Have the Millenials, then the Gen Yers become more strict about free love, sex and drugs?

    I did notice the comments in the management report. It is certainly an admission that we are talking in generalities here regarding the generations. I guess my personal experience so far with the generation Y's is one of still waiting to see if what the management report stated is true. It just seems to me that families are more separated and fractured than ever before, rather than recapturing the family attitude of the silents. It just seems to me that the "Patriotism of the gen Y is more politically polarized than the silents. But I could be wrong.
     

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