Larry McCarren on "That Shovel pass

[Bruce]

From a post at Packers chatter:

This is an excerpt from Larry McCarren's weekly chat over at the GBPG in which he talks about what went wrong during the shovel pass play that resulted in Favre throwing an interception:


Darcy G., Elm Grove, WI: Pure BS, Larry, is just what all this negative talk about Favre making bad decisions is all about, too.. My question pertains to the ill-fated play before the half.. was that supposed to be a shovel to Fisher, with Fergy as the hot read the event of a blitz? My gut tells me that either Fergy didn't pick up that it was a blitz, or he figured it was covered - which it was. Meanwhile, Brett's option to Tony Fisher was gone. Any insight?

LM: Darcy, It was just a poor play on Brett's part. A shovel pass was called and even though the Bears were blitzing, the play had a chance. Chicago was blitzing from Brett's right, but the shovel was supposed to go left. If Brett drifts a little left, like he's supposed to, he can make the pass away from the rush. At worst it's a couple yard gain, at best, if Fisher can make somebody miss, a touchdown. Also, the play has a safety valve receiver, but he's out in the left flat. What happened is Brett felt the pressure from his right, reacted around it to his right, and launched to a receiver who had no idea a pass might be coming his way. The resulting interception changed the complexion of the game.

 

[DePack]

Yea we've seen enough of that play in our nightmares. Brett has always thrown into the direction of the blitz, usually with pretty good success. It is taught and very common. The idea is that the blitzing man just left an area exposed. On a shovel pass the wide receivers are taking their man deep or blocking downfield.....not looking for the ball. It was a mistake...so what? Brett says he was trying to throw it away. If so he probably should have just thrown it at Fisher's feet.

Brett threw the ball 58 times on Sunday.....a couple of mistakes are going to happen. It is over.

 

[Bruce]

Yea we've seen enough of that play in our nightmares. Brett has always thrown into the direction of the blitz, usually with pretty good success. It is taught and very common. The idea is that the blitzing man just left an area exposed. On a shovel pass the wide receivers are taking their man deep or blocking downfield.....not looking for the ball. It was a mistake...so what? Brett says he was trying to throw it away. If so he probably should have just thrown it at Fisher's feet.

Brett threw the ball 58 times on Sunday.....a couple of mistakes are going to happen. It is over.

Yes, mistakes are going to happen -- even by great players like Brett. I am not into finger pointing or blaming and rarely think that a single play decides and outcome.

The whole point of my pursuit of this is related to the propensity to cast blame on play calls, coaching decisions and lesser player mistakes, while apologizing and defending bone-headed plays by Vets that absolutely know better.

Brett has accepted responsibility. He has broad shoulders, he can handle a little criticism when deserving

 

[[email protected]]

Yes..Bruce it's true...

Funny though...I never see you point out any of SherRossley's mistakes..or admit that he even makes them...

 

[Bruce]

Yes..Bruce it's true...

Funny though...I never see you point out any of SherRossley's mistakes..or admit that he even makes them...

You have got to be kidding. I certainly have been critical of Sherman and Rossley -- just not constantly nor obsessively. Besides, with you and other ranters goiing off constantly there is hardly room to go down that road without adding to the already inordinate level of obsession with blaming them.

Since we are not talking specifically I will level a couple criticism of Rossley & Sherman that are of a more general nature now.

Rossley is far to quick to abandon the run and often seems to forget to return to it in a planful way. He does not use the TE as a weapon enough.

Sherman can be too enabling -- especially of Brett. He was overwhelmed having responsibilities of both the GM and Head Coaching job and failed to recognize it himself -- he should have demanded help.

These are just a couple, but I have given specific ones when warrented.
Ask yourself if you ever give credit to either when they succeed or do something well?

 

[[email protected]]

ok then...

when I see SherRossley do something good...I will let you know....

 

[Bruce]

ok then...

when I see SherRossley do something good...I will let you know....

Come on 66 it isn't that hard. For example, Rossley put together a game plan that destroyed a Raven's defense in their house when no one could even threaten them.

It really won't kill you to give credit where credit is due.

 

[[email protected]]

Yes..

That WAS good...but as I recall..it was a few years ago..and I really haven't seen the likes since...

and I am curious as to why you think that is...and I'm not being a wise-*** on this one..i'm dead serious....(it's kind of perplexing..)

 

[Bruce]

Yes..

That WAS good...but as I recall..it was a few years ago..and I really haven't seen the likes since...

and I am curious as to why you think that is...and I'm not being a wise-*** on this one..i'm dead serious....(it's kind of perplexing..)

I am taking you seriouly and as such am not sure about Rossley inconsistency. He is at times brilliant and at others head scratchingly predictible.

He has had serious health problems.

I also thought in general the game plan against Chicago showed flashes of brilliance. The Packers pushed a defense around that had been destroying most teams and exposed an underbelly that had not been attacked yet this season -- and this with as I know you agree an abysmal lack of playmaking ability at the skill positions.

It is one of the reasons I think Brett needed to be taken to task for his improv before the half and failing to recognize the read on his other interception that not only killed another good drive but handed a killing 7 points to Chicago -- though I admit I also hold the coaches accountable for going to the well once too often with that call.

 

[tromadz]

From a post at Packers chatter:

This is an excerpt from Larry McCarren's weekly chat over at the GBPG in which he talks about what went wrong during the shovel pass play that resulted in Favre throwing an interception:


Darcy G., Elm Grove, WI: Pure BS, Larry, is just what all this negative talk about Favre making bad decisions is all about, too.. My question pertains to the ill-fated play before the half.. was that supposed to be a shovel to Fisher, with Fergy as the hot read the event of a blitz? My gut tells me that either Fergy didn't pick up that it was a blitz, or he figured it was covered - which it was. Meanwhile, Brett's option to Tony Fisher was gone. Any insight?

LM: Darcy, It was just a poor play on Brett's part. A shovel pass was called and even though the Bears were blitzing, the play had a chance. Chicago was blitzing from Brett's right, but the shovel was supposed to go left. If Brett drifts a little left, like he's supposed to, he can make the pass away from the rush. At worst it's a couple yard gain, at best, if Fisher can make somebody miss, a touchdown. Also, the play has a safety valve receiver, but he's out in the left flat. What happened is Brett felt the pressure from his right, reacted around it to his right, and launched to a receiver who had no idea a pass might be coming his way. The resulting interception changed the complexion of the game.

1. Hindsight is 20\20.
2. Easy for him to say seeing as he wasn't on the field.

 

[Bruce]

From a post at Packers chatter:

This is an excerpt from Larry McCarren's weekly chat over at the GBPG in which he talks about what went wrong during the shovel pass play that resulted in Favre throwing an interception:


Darcy G., Elm Grove, WI: Pure BS, Larry, is just what all this negative talk about Favre making bad decisions is all about, too.. My question pertains to the ill-fated play before the half.. was that supposed to be a shovel to Fisher, with Fergy as the hot read the event of a blitz? My gut tells me that either Fergy didn't pick up that it was a blitz, or he figured it was covered - which it was. Meanwhile, Brett's option to Tony Fisher was gone. Any insight?

LM: Darcy, It was just a poor play on Brett's part. A shovel pass was called and even though the Bears were blitzing, the play had a chance. Chicago was blitzing from Brett's right, but the shovel was supposed to go left. If Brett drifts a little left, like he's supposed to, he can make the pass away from the rush. At worst it's a couple yard gain, at best, if Fisher can make somebody miss, a touchdown. Also, the play has a safety valve receiver, but he's out in the left flat. What happened is Brett felt the pressure from his right, reacted around it to his right, and launched to a receiver who had no idea a pass might be coming his way. The resulting interception changed the complexion of the game.

1. Hindsight is 20\20.
2. Easy for him to say seeing as he wasn't on the field.

So I guess we should shut down all forums unless the talk is forward looking? Are you trying to say that you never comment on plays retrospectively? Is it your assertion that one should not learn from mistakes? Are you saying that Larry M -- a former starting NFL center -- whose responsibility involved not only reading blitzs but calling out blocking assignments is as qualified as you to offer an opinion of what was available?

Remember your own advice next time you go on one of your play-calling diatribes.

 

[tromadz]

From a post at Packers chatter:

This is an excerpt from Larry McCarren's weekly chat over at the GBPG in which he talks about what went wrong during the shovel pass play that resulted in Favre throwing an interception:


Darcy G., Elm Grove, WI: Pure BS, Larry, is just what all this negative talk about Favre making bad decisions is all about, too.. My question pertains to the ill-fated play before the half.. was that supposed to be a shovel to Fisher, with Fergy as the hot read the event of a blitz? My gut tells me that either Fergy didn't pick up that it was a blitz, or he figured it was covered - which it was. Meanwhile, Brett's option to Tony Fisher was gone. Any insight?

LM: Darcy, It was just a poor play on Brett's part. A shovel pass was called and even though the Bears were blitzing, the play had a chance. Chicago was blitzing from Brett's right, but the shovel was supposed to go left. If Brett drifts a little left, like he's supposed to, he can make the pass away from the rush. At worst it's a couple yard gain, at best, if Fisher can make somebody miss, a touchdown. Also, the play has a safety valve receiver, but he's out in the left flat. What happened is Brett felt the pressure from his right, reacted around it to his right, and launched to a receiver who had no idea a pass might be coming his way. The resulting interception changed the complexion of the game.

1. Hindsight is 20\20.
2. Easy for him to say seeing as he wasn't on the field.

So I guess we should shut down all forums unless the talk is forward looking? Are you trying to say that you never comment on plays retrospectively? Is it your assertion that one should not learn from mistakes? Are you saying that Larry M -- a former starting NFL center -- whose responsibility involved not only reading blitzs but calling out blocking assignments is as qualified as you to offer an opinion of what was available?

Remember your own advice next time you go on one of your play-calling diatribes.

play calling diatribes? have you lost your mind? All I said was hindsight is 20\20 and easy for him to say, he wasnt there. This is one persons opinion on the matter. Maybe you and Larry should get slammed to the ground and blindsided thanks to good playcalling and blocking schemes and see if you wanna continue a shovel pass that is damn near destroyed. I don't know why you're attacking me, but I do not appreciate it at all.

I tend to give people who are in the situation and on the sidelines the benefit of the doubt, because believe it or not, they know more about the situation that we do. Shocker.

 

[CaliforniaCheez]

At the end of a good drive with good chance for a hard fought TD I understand Brett's attempt to throw away rather than take the sack.

Some credit should go to the Bears for a good blitz. Brown is a good player.
If Fisher was not the primary he would have attempted to pick up blitzer, Mike Brown.
Fisher was forced to go to a different hole taking a bit of time.
The high trajectory of the ball leads me to believe Brett that he was throwing it away.
Not all plays are the result of bad coaching or bad decision or bad execution by Brett but the opponents doing a good job or getting lucky or both.
It was not bad blocking.
It is not an encapsulation of the season. On that play the Bears deserve credit.

 

[Bruce]

At the end of a good drive with good chance for a hard fought TD I understand Brett's attempt to throw away rather than take the sack.

Some credit should go to the Bears for a good blitz. Brown is a good player.
If Fisher was not the primary he would have attempted to pick up blitzer, Mike Brown.
Fisher was forced to go to a different hole taking a bit of time.
The high trajectory of the ball leads me to believe Brett that he was throwing it away.
Not all plays are the result of bad coaching or bad decision or bad execution by Brett but the opponents doing a good job or getting lucky or both.
It was not bad blocking.
It is not an encapsulation of the season. On that play the Bears deserve credit.

Primarily I agree with you when you write, "Not all plays are the result of bad coaching or bad decision or bad execution by Brett but the opponents doing a good job or getting lucky or both."

But why not take a slide? or throw the ball at Fishers feet rather than risk life, limb and points by sliding right into the blitz and attempting to throw it up in the middle. I am not into blaming Brett but it was a poor decision on his part. da bears both got lucky and made a good play, because Brett created the opportunity for them when it was not there.

Brett is hardly the scape goat, but how can anyone continue to defend the decision. He admits as much.

 

[tromadz]

yeah hes having a bad year, he continues to make bad plays (even in a bad offense,which it is, hes not doing his best) eery game.

It is 1 bad year out of like 13...with injuries galore and captain coocoo bananas as Head Coach, can we give him a pass this year?

 

[Bruce]

yeah hes having a bad year, he continues to make bad plays (even in a bad offense,which it is, hes not doing his best) eery game.

It is 1 bad year out of like 13...with injuries galore and captain coocoo bananas as Head Coach, can we give him a pass this year?

The guy may be the "greatest" QB to ever play the game and is a sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Famer.

He is entitled to make mistakes, but even the great one's deserve to hear about it when they make mistakes. A criticism I have of Sherman is he is unwilling to give Brett real feedback. I am not talking about getting in his face, rather simple coaching -- no player out grows the need for feedback.

 

[tromadz]

as much as I dislike sherman, I dont know about him giving or not giving favre feedback\coaching. Maybe he does, we dont know (well maybe you do), i dont.

I dont care really, hopefully it wont matter...hopefully he will be gone so its ok.

 

[vixtalkn]

I think Brett needed to be taken to task for his improv before the half.

In what manner?

 

[IPBprez]

Since we are not talking specifically I will level a couple criticism of Rossley & Sherman that are of a more general nature now.

Rossley is far to quick to abandon the run and often seems to forget to return to it in a planful way.

He does not use the TE as a weapon enough.

This last comment - Isn't this more than a bit mysteriousl - knowing that the HC was a former TE Coach? Why walk away from the Tiger Set - unless you simply don't have the mindset to understand it..... Sherman was also the GM long enough to have the Pack 3 deep in that position, as well.

Comment, Bruce?