Kenny Clark and Blake Martinez

[GleefulGary]

It's fine that we disagree on Martinez being one of the best inside linebackers in the league but after his performance against the Rams you most likely have a hard time convincing anyone about the opposite.

Oh. But you just said in the Mike Daniels thread that one game doesn’t make up for 6. Does that not apply here?

 

[XPack]

Rueben Foster, Keuchly, Jamie Collins, Bobby Wagner, C.J. Mosley, Eric Kendricks, Deion Jones are arguably all better than Martinez.

Then you have other guys who play outside in a 4-3, but would play inside in a 3-4 like Sean Lee or Lavonte David. There are more there too.

Martinez piles up stats because he plays behind a phenomenal DL. Watch the tape. Martinez rarely has to worry about blockers because of how good our DL is. Despite that, he still misses gaps, he’s still average at best in coverage, and he misses way too many tackles. Now I’m not saying he’s bad, because he’s not. Above average at the very best. Calling him among the NFL’s top tier is too much for me.

Anyone who watched Packers game regularly over last season and this can't really dispute Blake's contribution. He's the best LB in the team and one of the best (Top 10-15 imo) in the league. Agreed Clark has a role in those stats, but he's been in the right place and does the right things consistently and that shows he's shows his impact is more than just the defensive scheme.

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Man, was I wrong about Clark. It was stupid to doubt him given his age, physical attributes, and wrestling background, but there really wasn't much about his on-field play to be excited about. He's so much better than he was in college.

Martinez is a stud. Spriggs is terrible, but it's tough to complain about how this draft went.

 

[Dantés]

I think Martinez has been pretty good on balance this season, and he was great on Sunday. I've always thought that he graded a little better than reality with PFF, which is where I think a lot of the disagreement comes from. Not that he's bad and they think he's amazing, but more that when I watch him I see more negative plays than what's reflected in a 80+ grade on their scale.

It's interesting to think about the linebackers around the league who are better than he is. That's a difficult exercise because a) I only see a smattering of other guys, and b) understanding role is so important. I would say that Bobby Wagner, Myles Jack, Lavonte David, Deion Jones, C.J. Mosley, Luke Kuechley, and Sean Lee are all a clear cut above Martinez in quality. But what makes it tricky is that you can argue that the following are all in the conversation with Martinez: Benardrick McKinney, Telvin Smith, Demario Davis, Thomas Davis, Roquan Smith, Jamie Collins, Jaylon Smith, Darius Leonard, Leighton Vander Esch, Joe Schobert, Anthony Barr, Eric Kendricks, Nigel Bradham...

So someone who is really high on Martinez and giving a lot of weight to his best game on Sunday might make the case that he's a top 10 off-ball linebacker, but someone else might argue that he belongs more around ~20 depending on how they see these other players.

I think the bottom line is that he's a good linebacker and he seems to be taking a step forward under Pettine. If he can maintain consistency at something like Sunday's level, he will bring a lot of clarity to this debate.

 

[PackinMSP]

Honestly I don't really get all the HATE for TT.

Clark and Martinez were TT picks.

TT also picked Micah Hyde, Casey Heyward, Morgan Burnett, Mike Daniels.

He's had a bunch of misses but I think as his current role as Advisor he's terrific.

From my viewpoint, this team NEEDS:
OL upgrades on the RIGHT SIDE
OLBs on BOTH sides
SS that can also cover. Letting go of Burnett was a TERRIBLE mistake

 

[Dantés]

Burnett has barely played this year.

 

[PackinMSP]

Burnett has barely played this year.

But you do realize how important Burnett was to HaHa right?

HaHa reminds me a LOT of Darren Sharper. He can make plays but just isn't really "always there" and makes plays without proper leadership.

HaHa might get 5+ interceptions this year which "looks good" but he'll blow a bunch of coverages and not be in position.

That's where Burnett came in IMO. He was more of the "glue/leader" to put guys in position.

Obviously I wish Burnett had been better at "making plays" but he was good at what he did

 

[Patriotplayer90]

Honestly I don't really get all the HATE for TT.

Clark and Martinez were TT picks.

TT also picked Micah Hyde, Casey Heyward, Morgan Burnett, Mike Daniels.

He's had a bunch of misses but I think as his current role as Advisor he's terrific.

From my viewpoint, this team NEEDS:
OL upgrades on the RIGHT SIDE
OLBs on BOTH sides
SS that can also cover. Letting go of Burnett was a TERRIBLE mistake

Our roster isn't very good outside of Rodgers. Our D is 17th and is giving up around 30 a game outside of a shutout against a terrible Bills offense, and Rodgers needs more help on offense. Adams is really good but not a guy like A. Brown who can carry an offense, and we really have nothing but role players outside of that. No playmakers or real threats to a defense.

Martinez and Clark were great picks, but he has struck out on virtually every other pick after 2014 draft, and we watched a ton of talent walk since then. Things were almost spiraling out of control . It's clear that he needed to go.

 

[PackinMSP]

Our roster isn't very good outside of Rodgers. Our D is 17th and is giving up around 30 a game outside of a shutout against a terrible Bills offense, and Rodgers needs more help on offense. Adams is really good but not a guy like A. Brown who can carry an offense, and we really have nothing but role players outside of that. No playmakers or real threats to a defense.

Martinez and Clark were great picks, but he has struck out on virtually every other pick after 2014 draft, and we watched a ton of talent walk since then. Things were almost spiraling out of control . It's clear that he needed to go.

Never said TT shouldn't be fired as GM but the Jordy cut wasn't a move I liked.... and that was an offensive playmaker

Obviously Cobb has been disappointing this year but Allison was a "diamond in the rough" find.

HaHa is a playmaker on defense but he isn't a good leader and it's shown this year without Burnett. Is HaHa making plays? Yes, but he's often out of assignment.

The OLBers are TERRIBLE no denying that LOL

 

[Dantés]

But you do realize how important Burnett was to HaHa right?

HaHa reminds me a LOT of Darren Sharper. He can make plays but just isn't really "always there" and makes plays without proper leadership.

HaHa might get 5+ interceptions this year which "looks good" but he'll blow a bunch of coverages and not be in position.

That's where Burnett came in IMO. He was more of the "glue/leader" to put guys in position.

Obviously I wish Burnett had been better at "making plays" but he was good at what he did

Yeah, he was. But I still applaud Gute for not giving a 3rd deal to a 29 year safety in decline. The issue isn't that they let Burnett walk, it's that Jones was not ready to replace him.

 

[XPack]

Honestly I don't really get all the HATE for TT.

The team has been stagnant since our championship game loss in 2014-15. Many top draft picks haven't worked and we have done **** all in FA. It was criminal to have wasted and done nothing in AR12s prime.

 

[swhitset]

The team has been stagnant since our championship game loss in 2014-15. Many top draft picks haven't worked and we have done **** all in FA. It was criminal to have wasted and done nothing in AR12s prime.

Thompson did very well for quite some time. He completely built the 2010 Super bowl team... and that took some time to accomplish. It is much harder to maintain than to build from nothing due in large part to the salary cap. Thompson’s draft and develop strategy worked very well for a long time, but a few bad draft choices in a few key positions really derailed him. I also think that fatigue may have played a part towards the end, and it was time for a change, but he deserves much more respect than he gets in here.

 

[Mondio]

I’d also add he built 2014 as well, that absolutely was a super bowl Roster as well. And it was largely the same for 16 and 17.

He certainly wasn’t perfect but he did more than a lot want to admit.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

Thompson did very well for quite some time. He completely built the 2010 Super bowl team... and that took some time to accomplish. It is much harder to maintain than to build from nothing due in large part to the salary cap. Thompson’s draft and develop strategy worked very well for a long time, but a few bad draft choices in a few key positions really derailed him. I also think that fatigue may have played a part towards the end, and it was time for a change, but he deserves much more respect than he gets in here.

I think the bigger issue was all the guys that he had helping him in the front office got hired to be GMs of other teams. It's pretty obvious that TT's greatest skill was hiring those guys to help him (TT was also very good but one very good guy isn't enough); when they started leaving, he couldn't keep up the quality of the drafts and he wasn't a guy that could shift to free agency to compensate.

 

[swhitset]

I’d also add he built 2014 as well, that absolutely was a super bowl Roster as well. And it was largely the same for 16 and 17.

He certainly wasn’t perfect but he did more than a lot want to admit.

I actually almost made that exact point in my original post, but figured it would be too long and boring for the immediate gratification crowd lol.

 

[XPack]

Thompson did very well for quite some time. He completely built the 2010 Super bowl team... and that took some time to accomplish. It is much harder to maintain than to build from nothing due in large part to the salary cap. Thompson’s draft and develop strategy worked very well for a long time, but a few bad draft choices in a few key positions really derailed him. I also think that fatigue may have played a part towards the end, and it was time for a change, but he deserves much more respect than he gets in here.

Not to diss him completely, but overall we did underachieve. His overall approach was flawed as he concentrated on the strategic and ignored the tactical fixes. You really can't wait for multiple years to fix every problems. Barring Woodson and Peppers, he really didn't make that final nudge that kept us from winning the SB more.

I'd grade his tenure as 5.5/10 at best.

 

[swhitset]

Not to diss him completely, but overall we did underachieve. His overall approach was flawed as he concentrated on the strategic and ignored the tactical fixes. You really can't wait for multiple years to fix every problems. Barring Woodson and Peppers, he really didn't make that final nudge that kept us from winning the SB more.

I'd grade his tenure as 5.5/10 at best.

Then you had better grade 31/32 of the either Gms during his tenure as 1s or 2s since very few of them ever won a Superbowl.

 

[XPack]

Then you had better grade 31/32 of the either Gms during his tenure as 1s or 2s since very few of them ever won a Superbowl.

It's not a comparative grade. It's a rating on how successful I think he was in his job with us.

 

[swhitset]

It's not a comparative grade. It's a rating on how successful I think he was in his job with us.

Well i’d say he was pretty successful.. and I gave one reason why. The Packers overall winning percentage would be another. Of course it’s a comparative grade.... that’s the whole point of sports.

 

[XPack]

Well i’d say he was pretty successful.. and I gave one reason why. The Packers overall winning percentage would be another. Of course it’s a comparative grade.... that’s the whole point of sports.

I put that to AR12 more than TT.
His 2005-11 (probably would give him a 7 for this) was probably better than 2011-17 (will give him a 3 for this) and that factors into overall rating.

 

[Mondio]

If you're not going to compare him to his peers how relevant is the grade?

 

[Sunshinepacker]

It's not a comparative grade. It's a rating on how successful I think he was in his job with us.

That's not really how grading player performance in a sport works. Otherwise all NBA players besides Lebron, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Jordan, or Russell would be terrible (and please, I didn't want to list every great NBA player ever but I think I listed enough to prove the point).

 

[Jerellh528]

Pretty crazy that only 4 players from TT’s 13, 14 and 15 draft classes remain on the roster. Bahk, Adams, Linsley, and Jake Ryan.

 

[GleefulGary]

I put that to AR12 more than TT.
His 2005-11 (probably would give him a 7 for this) was probably better than 2011-17 (will give him a 3 for this) and that factors into overall rating.

And who drafted Rodgers?

 

[Dantés]

A lot of the same people who trash TT treat Wolf with awe and reverence, which is ridiculous. The success of their tenures was virtually identical.