1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

Interceptions...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by musccy, Dec 29, 2005.

  1. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    Team ints 2005:
    San Fran (Smith, Pickett, Dorsey, Rattay) = 20
    Houston (Carr) = 11
    Brett Favre = 28

    All of the excuses that people apply to Brett...bad wrs (who can name San Fran's top 2 wrs w/out google?), bad coaching, bad running game...whatever you want to bring up, can all be said for San Fran and Houston, yet they have 2/3, and 1/3 the # of picks as Brett does.

    I've said all along Brett Favre still has the physical tools to be a top 3 qb in the league But he's making the same mistakes over and over that we've seen since '92. But these are correctable mistakes...don't blindly wing it up into triple coverage on Fergy, rely on your checkdown, take a sack once in a while...is it boring football? Yes! but it's also the winning formula right now for the Bears.
     
  2. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2005
    Messages:
    2,249
    Ratings:
    +0
    Carr has talent, I've always said that.
     
  3. ravage

    ravage Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +0
    Brandon Lloyd and Arnez Battle. Although I do believe at least one of them is injured if not on the IR.
     
  4. ravage

    ravage Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Messages:
    129
    Ratings:
    +0
    After looking it up they are both healthy now but Battle has been in and out of the lineup with injuries all year.
     
  5. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    I was going to offer a 6 pack of Point Special to anyone who could name them, but now I'm glad because I'd be out ~7 bucks :D

    Before the rain of fire comes down on me, I'm not bringing this up to flame or whatever, but to illustrate a point. You can come up w/ every excuse in the book, from coaching to talent, but those excuses apply to San Fran and Houston as well, but look at the stats/results.

    Again, Brett has a ton of ability, still, but the coaches, fans, and organization are overlooking and excusing some of his mistakes, which IMO have cost the Packers in a few games this year. These mistakes can be corrected, but they need to be acknowledged before that can occur (not that me whining on a message board helps much).
     
  6. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    Musscy..

    I know you always focus on the interceptions...but let's say..that you removed 6-8 picks that were caused by receivers running wrong routes, not fighting for the ball, being new to the NFL game,..etc..etc.., and you took away 6-8 of Brett Favre's "gifts" as you call them based upon his decision making...then...what would you have?

    Say..maybe 15-16 picks thrown by Brett Favre this year..?

    Do you really think that with this current GB Packer team that this would have translated into a winning season this year? I mean would it make the Pack any better then say 5-11..or 6 and 10 this year?

    In my view..the interceptions don't really factor into the equation because the Packers were just not going anywhere this year...based upon no talent at receiver...based upon not signing veteran players..based upon no running game..and based upon coaching...

    Just the way I see it..
     
  7. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    I don't deny that incorrect routes contributed to the 28 picks, but I also think that, and esp. with Brett, for every pick due to a receiver, there's another int. that Brett got away with due to a penalty or it hit the defender in the mits and he dropped it. In other words, if you're looking at a hypothetical way to guestimate the number of picks thrown (which I think is fine) and take away 8 picks due to wr mistakes, to be fair, I think you need to add some picks that Brett (or whatever qb) got away with, which usually winds up pretty close to whatever a qb's acutal int total already was.

    Also w/ the talent or receiver, that's why I brought up San Fran and Houston...they have pretty bad wrs, but the int totals don't reflect that.

    You bring up why it matters this year...you're right, w/ some wishful thinking this team is 6-10, 7-9 or whatever...not a playoff team though.

    However, I'm concerned because I think the mistakes we see now, are the same ones we saw in playoff games like v. Minny and St Louis. I know you think coaching contributed a lot more, and that's fine, but IMO, Brett made some mistakes that really hurt the team, and I would like to see those errors corrected

    Do I focus on Brett too much? Maybe, but the qb, by nature, is the most influential position on the field since the qb touches the ball every play, which is why I'd like to see some of his mistakes corrected because, believe it or not, I think he is still fully capable of guiding a team to the SB.
     
  8. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,560
    Ratings:
    +1
    Musccy, I truly believe that the problem with Brett of late is that there isn't anyone who is going to reign him in. The mistakes he's making are inexcusable at this stage of his career and with his ability level. The guy can flat out play, but to have this QB rating with 28 interceptions for a guy with his talent, simply means there is something awry in Green Bay. I believe it's Mike Sherman and Tom Rossely. I think he's lost his interest in playing for those two buffoons. The offense isn't original and it's become predictable and that all lends itself to more interceptions. What does every defense know? He's going to make some plays but they also know he's going to make a mistake and throw the ball where he shouldn't throw it. Everyone is sitting on him right now and that shouldn't be. I believe he has a lot left in that big arm, but if he is going to keep playing. then he has to fix himself starting with what's above his shoulders. I think that's where his problem is. If you want to retire, then do that. If you want to play than shut up and quit talking about it and just play.

    If Brett wants to come back then tell everyone, "Hey, I'm coming back and we're going to win." Just like if he retires he has to announce it, why the hell not just end the mystery and talk to people honestly about it. I get the feeling that this has become a bit of a game for Brett.
     
  9. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    First of all..Musscy..

    You can't count interceptions that weren't made because the DB's dropped the balls..That's happened to Favre his whole career..and if you watch other NFL games..it happens to other QB's..too...(that's why they are DB's and not receivers..because they can't catch...especially Brett Favre fastballs...so don't blame him for something he didn't do!)

    Packedhouse..

    If the offense if predictable..he doesn't have the talen at WR..and DB's are sitting on his routes..and he doesn't have a running game...How is Favre NOT going to throw interceptions? Anyone would..under those circumstances....

    And if he's being coy about retirement...maybe he has a right to be..to see what direction GB is committed to going in...

    Will they fire Sherman?
    Will they fire Rossley?
    Will TT pursue talented FA's or is he going to throw Favre to the wolves again and just sign rookies?

    These are things I think he would want to know before making a decision...
     
  10. sixone220

    sixone220 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Messages:
    688
    Ratings:
    +1
    Brett has always thrown it into triple coverage and made some poor decisions. He just doesn't have brooks, freeman, walker, etc to go and get the ball. He's always had a handful of picks each year that are thrown so hard they go right off the hands of someone. What's the pt to the thread? Brett is and always has been a gunslinger. You take the good with the bad and this year the talent hasn't helped him out and kept the ints in check.
     
  11. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    My biggest criticism of MS is his awe of Brett. Holmgren would pop a blood vessel every time Brett came off the field, which I think helped a lot, so I agree with you.

    Just to have someone in the Cinncy game go up to him and say after the 2nd pick...settle down, take what's given to you...instead they said nothing, he got over-excited, and forced some throws that he really didn't need to. That has NOTHING to do with physical abilities...it has to do w/ the way Brett is...he gets too excited at times, forces it a bit, and he needs to have someone bring him down a notch....he's always been like that, and I respect his desire and heart, but it gets in the way of his judgement at times.

    As for the retirement talk...I too am getting tired of hearing about it (the media are to blame for this as well), but I also can appreciate/respect his indecisiveness. It's a tough decision esp. since he takes the success of the team very personally.
     
  12. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    Pack...I agree...but ints due to wrs happens on other teams too, and is a matter of speculation as well.

    So what I'm trying to say is that a quarterback gets screwed over by his receivers on some of his picks, no doubt...but that tends to balance out the lucky breaks he got too, so in the end the # of picks you throw is likely fairly representative of how you're playing.
     
  13. JbShell

    JbShell Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2005
    Messages:
    796
    Ratings:
    +0
    I have always believed tipped ball interceptions should not be factored into ints unless it is tipped by a defender.

    I think Brett has always been a gunslinger but it has bit him this year more than any other. This GB team has gona away from dink and dunk Tiger seats and such and has payed mightly for it. Run and shoot teams never get far in the NFL
     
  14. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    JB..

    Good point..you need very talented..speedy receivers to run the Run and Shoot...(its based on timing patterns..)

    and it is not a very good offense anyway!

    SherRossley is trying to turn Brett Favre into Jeff George!

    (Fire his ***...)

    ps..Ask IPB Prez how he feels about the tiger set!
     
  15. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2005
    Messages:
    1,078
    Ratings:
    +0
    Packers press on without playmakers
    Posted: Dec. 28, 2005


    Rick Braun
    E-MAIL | ARCHIVE


    Green Bay - Forced by the rules of employment to spend the better part of Christmas Day watching the Chicago Bears wear down and put away the Green Bay Packers, the realization hit: Just who do we expect to make the game-winning plays for the Packers?

    Seriously.

    Fans and the squawkers on sports talk radio can say what they like about perceived quitting in the Monday night debacle at Baltimore. But once Samkon Gado went down, who was really left to make plays for the Packer offense?

    The short answer is Brett Favre and Donald Driver. And that's not nearly enough.

    On Sunday night, when David Martin went down in the second quarter with a head injury, the Packers' passing game was down to one tight end, Donald Lee, and Driver, Antonio Chatman, Andrae Thurman and Rob Gardner.

    Chatman entered the season as the No. 4 receiver. Had the Packers not had injuries to Javon Walker, Terrence Murphy and Robert Ferguson he might have finished the season as No. 5 receiver, depending on the development of the rookie Murphy.

    Thurman didn't make the final 53-man roster in September. Gardner was just picked up last week on waivers.

    Walker, Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, Terrence Murphy and Bubba Franks all were expected to be significant parts of the Packer offense in 2005. All are on injured reserve.

    Robert Ferguson also was expected to be a significant contributor, and while he isn't on injured reserve, he's been injured much of the season and not nearly as effective as hoped when he wasn't injured.

    And that doesn't even take into account the woes along the offensive line with the departed Marco Rivera and Mike Wahle and the playing-in-pain Mike Flanagan.

    So the question is: What did we really expect on Sunday?

    Truthfully, the Packers are quite near that well-noted assessment of former general manager Ron Wolf, who said they were playing with a bunch of NFL Europe players.

    Now that's not to dog all of the fill-ins, either.

    Chatman has been valiant as the No. 2 receiver. But he's not a No. 2 receiver. He can be a heck of a No. 4 receiver, maybe even a good No. 3 receiver if need be. But he's not a No. 2.

    Driver has been valiant as the No. 1 receiver. His six-catch, 107-yard performance on Sunday put him at 80 catches and 1,103 yards for the season. One can argue that those are numbers good enough to deem Driver a No. 1 receiver. The numbers are good enough to make that case.

    Still, when all the attention is focused on Driver as the No. 1 receiver, the Packer offense seems to bog down.

    Winning in the NFL comes down to making plays. And the biggest plays are the ones that score touchdowns.

    Once again, the Packers moved the ball on Sunday. They racked up 365 yards of offense to just 292 for the Bears. They've out-gained the opposition in 12 of their 15 games.

    But it's all about scoring points, and the Packers aren't doing enough of that.

    Packer coach Mike Sherman couldn't have stated it more plainly when it was pointed out that the Packers out-gained the Bears, had a 24-16 edge in first downs and 6-minute edge in time of possession.

    "I think it's obvious that we didn't score enough points" he said. "I don't mean that facetiously, but that's what this game came down to. All that yardage and what-not is irrelevant when you don't score points."

    The Packers moved 50 yards on their first possession, but turned the ball over on downs.

    Their one true offensive conquest came on their second possession, a 15-play, 84-yard drive. Of course, they nearly blew that one, too. After a holding penalty negated a touchdown for - of all people Mark Tauscher - the Packers needed a pass-interference penalty in the end zone to give them a first-and-goal at the 1.

    On their third possession they went 51 yards in 11 plays but couldn't turn it into points.

    On their final scoring drive, they had a first-and-goal at the 8 but never came near penetrating the end zone. To do that consistently, playmakers are required.

    And with the list stopping at Driver and Favre, the Packers simply don't have the firepower to do it.

    Simply put, the Packers can move the ball. Sadly, they can't score points.

    Since defeating Atlanta, 33-25, on Nov. 13, the Packers have gone six games without scoring more than 17 points. They're 1-5 in that span.

    With Gado gone they don't have a running game. Even with Favre and Driver they don't have a consistent passing game.

    In the end, the only thing that can save the Packers in 2005 is the season ending. In 2006, Walker should be back. And Murphy and Franks and Gado and maybe even Green or Davenport.

    But for now, thank goodness the 2005 season ends on the first day of 2006.
     
  16. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,904
    Ratings:
    +1
    musccy....I'm kind of surprised that you would throw Brett under the bus like that. Starting a thread to criticize him is surprising. I know you support Sherman but you can do that without bashing Brett.

    HE HAS THROWN A TON OF INTERCEPTIONS.... we know this. You didn't balance your statistics with any others that might shed light on this. First of all, I don't know this for a fact, but I would guess that Brett has thrown more passes this year than any of those teams have. None of those teams have gone 6-7 deep on their depth chart at RB. None of those teams have lost the quality WR's and TE's that the Packers have.

    I would honestly say that Favres int's the past few years have really gone up because of injuries AND our playbook. We have been running the same patterns for 15 years now. It has to change. When it looks like our WR's are actually following DB's to a spot....there is a problem. Defensive backs seem to know in advance where our receivers are going.
     
  17. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    DePack,

    I didn't really mean to throw Brett under the bus, but I (and others like Greg C, PPierce) am seeing a lot of the same mistakes from Brett that we've seen for years, but there is nobody willing to correct them.

    Brett is not the main reason the Packers are losing...the interior line is, IMO, among other factors, however, Brett has certainly contributed to some losses, yet nobody receives as many free passes and excuses from the organization and the public as Brett does, and until MS or someone stands up to him, like in the middle of the Cinncy game and says "Brett, settle down, we're in this game, take what's given to you instead of forcing it," then you will continue to see finishes like Philly this year, or the end of the first half v. the Bears, Minny and St. Louis playoffs, etc.

    You're right, to a degree about the stats. San Fran's int % is something like 5.5 %, Brett is 4.9% Rodgers about 6.3%, and Carr about 2.5%. However, I read that Brett's career int % is 3.3%, so he's up about 1.6% this year and again, is significantly worse than Carr.

    Again, I acknowledge that to an extent the talent affects that, but then it's Brett's responsibility to adapt to that. Jump balls to Fergy in triple coverage just don't work, so take a sack. Trusting on your fastball to gun it between 2 lbs has always been a risk he's taken, but this year's team can't make up for the chance of having a pick returned for a TD like previous teams could.

    Again, IMO, there is NO reason why Brett still can't be a top 3 qb in this league, but his impatience and decision making, and the reluctance of coaches and the organization to acknowledge and correct this is what is holding him back somewhat.
     
  18. PWT36

    PWT36 Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2005
    Messages:
    895
    Ratings:
    +0
    Bruce excellent post and an accurate assessment of the Packer problems in '05. Of coarse this will not changed the closed mind of majority of these negative posters on packer forums. I have been participating in Packer forums since February of this year. They have been told all these things in various ways by many knowledgeable Packer fans. It has done no good, they are obsessed with firing Sherman. For they think' he is the cause of all the Packer problems for six years because in their opinion he has wasted the great talent he inherited from Holmgren on an on it goes. If anything positive has happen in his six years of coaching Sherman is given no credit and if something bad has happen, Sherman get all the credit for that. Just about every coach in NFL who had Sherman's first five year coaching record (and there weren't very many if any since 1970) would be given a second chance to return after one losing year especially after the circumstances of what all happen to this Packer team this year. I wonder what these posters will do if Sherman returns to Green Bay for his 7th of coaching in Green Bay and I think he will. I suppose there will be another year of same old, same old negative postings. or may be there will be or has been some "jumping of the Packer bandwagon".
     

Share This Page