Improving the Defense for 2017....How and Who?

[Pokerbrat2000]

Over the past week you have been advocating for the Packers to sign Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and one of the top cornerbacks available in free agency. Unfortunately the Packers don't have enough cap space to pull off all of that moves.

Sure they do, if they cut Matthews and trade Aaron Rodgers

 

[Poppa San]

Sure they do, if they cut Matthews and trade Aaron Rodgers

That would garner you another $24m after a $10.7m dead cap hit. Cutting Cobb and Nelson FYI would be a $11.1m dead cap hit and free up just over $13m.

 

[Poppa San]

TT won't pick the right players to draft, then we turn them over to Dom and MM so it probably doesn't matter who we pick.

Thanks for that little ray of sunshine.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That would garner you another $24m after a $10.7m dead cap hit. Cutting Cobb and Nelson FYI would be a $11.1m dead cap hit and free up just over $13m.

We could build quite a defense through free agency if we gut our offense and part ways with Rodgers, Nelson, Matthews and Cobb LOL Oh wait, you need an offense to win games too

 

[Dantés]

Once again I'm relying on PFF to provide those numbers as I don't have the time to closely watch 32 teams play but according to them Kendricks only had one good season in 2014 and was below average for the rest of his NFL career. Therefore I'm not interested in trading for him at all.

While that's true for offensive player it's absolutely incorrect on the other side of the ball.

I would disagree with PFF that he only had one good season. I think he was a very good, ascending talent while in a 3-4 and that things sort of fell apart for him with a move to different scheme. That's ok though, because I doubt that the Packers will make a move for him. I brought him up because it would seem to be the type of "buy low" trade that the Patriots are so successful with and that Packer fans seem to long for.

Totally agree that Thompson has been better with offensive picks. How much of that is draft and how much of it is coaching development is hard to tease out. It is at least partially the former, I'm sure. But despite some recent whiffs, or apparent whiffs, on defense, he has still has some hits on that side of the ball and is still, on balance, once of the best drafters in the league over his time as GM of the Packers. He needs to mitigate his shortcomings by using free agency. But to hear some people tell it, the guy has merely fallen *** backwards into a couple home runs and doesn't actually know how to tie his shoes. It's ridiculous.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Totally agree that Thompson has been better with offensive picks. How much of that is draft and how much of it is coaching development is hard to tease out. It is at least partially the former, I'm sure. But despite some recent whiffs, or apparent whiffs, on defense, he has still has some hits on that side of the ball and is still, on balance, once of the best drafters in the league over his time as GM of the Packers. He needs to mitigate his shortcomings by using free agency. But to hear some people tell it, the guy has merely fallen *** backwards into a couple home runs and doesn't actually know how to tie his shoes. It's ridiculous.

There's no doubt that overall Thompson has drafted extremely well during his tenure with the Packers. If he had selectively used free agency more often it's probable the team would have won more than a single Super Bowl since 2005.

 

[JK64]

We need an experienced and capable CB either via trade or free agency.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

I would disagree with PFF that he only had one good season. I think he was a very good, ascending talent while in a 3-4 and that things sort of fell apart for him with a move to different scheme. That's ok though, because I doubt that the Packers will make a move for him. I brought him up because it would seem to be the type of "buy low" trade that the Patriots are so successful with and that Packer fans seem to long for.

Totally agree that Thompson has been better with offensive picks. How much of that is draft and how much of it is coaching development is hard to tease out. It is at least partially the former, I'm sure. But despite some recent whiffs, or apparent whiffs, on defense, he has still has some hits on that side of the ball and is still, on balance, once of the best drafters in the league over his time as GM of the Packers. He needs to mitigate his shortcomings by using free agency. But to hear some people tell it, the guy has merely fallen *** backwards into a couple home runs and doesn't actually know how to tie his shoes. It's ridiculous.

I think Thompson has been very good at the draft but I do wonder how much of his "skill" in picking offensive players is a result of those players getting to play with Rodgers. A great QB can make guys look great when those same guys might look pretty bland if they were playing with Miami or Cleveland.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I think Thompson has been very good at the draft but I do wonder how much of his "skill" in picking offensive players is a result of those players getting to play with Rodgers. A great QB can make guys look great when those same guys might look pretty bland if they were playing with Miami or Cleveland.

I agree. While some will point out that our OL's have been pretty good, some of what Rodgers does makes them look good. Sure AR often has a lot of time to get rid of the ball on any given play, but how much of that time is created by AR himself? Wide receiver and TE success, AR or players? I think a telling tale on offense and the effect Rodgers has had on it, is the one he has the least influence on, the run game. Which really has been average at best during Rodgers career. This really isn't something Rodgers can influence, short of defenses having to fully respect the Packers passing game, which should make the run game just that much better, but has it been?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I agree. While some will point out that our OL's have been pretty good, some of what Rodgers does makes them look good. Sure AR often has a lot of time to get ride of the ball on any given play, but how much of that time is created by AR himself? Wide receiver and TE success, AR or players? I think a telling tale on offense and the effect Rodgers has had on it, is the one he has the least influence on, the run game. Which really has been average at best during Rodgers career. This really isn't something Rodgers can influence, short of defenses having to fully respect the Packers passing game, which should make the run game just that much better, but has it been?

That's an interesting take and actually true for the first five years of Rodgers tenure as the starting quarterback as the Packers only ranked 26th overall in average yards per rushing attempt from 2008-12.

The team has significantly improved in that category after drafting Lacy in 2013 though ranking fifth over the last four seasons in that category.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

That's an interesting take and actually true for the first five years of Rodgers tenure as the starting quarterback as the Packers only ranked 26th overall in average yards per rushing attempt from 2008-12.

The team has significantly improved in that category after drafting Lacy in 2013 though ranking fifth over the last four seasons in that category.

Good stat Captain, I obviously would have lost that true or false question had you asked me if the Packers ranked 5th in ave. yards/rush in the NFL over the last 4 seasons. So toss my theory out on AR also helping the OL "look good", although I do think his ability to scramble does help in passing situations and the amount of attention defenses put on our passing game, helps as well.

 

[Dantés]

It's interesting to me that Rodgers' presence is more often used as a criticism of TT, who drafted him, than an argument in his favor.

There is no doubt that a great QB is a rising tide that lifts all boats. That's true league wide. However, you can clearly see on the field the players who are great in their own right. The offensive line is arguably the best pass blocking unit in the league. Rodgers routinely has a ton of time despite a lack of balance towards the run. It's not like receivers like Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams are secretly lousy and Rodgers just creates an illusion that they're good. Certainly having an elite QB throwing to you is going to help your box score, but the guys can also play.

If you doubt this, consider the NFCCG wherein Nelson and Adams were playing hurt and the OL fell apart with injury. There was an obvious difference in what Rodgers was able to do. Which is in no way a criticism of Rodgers, but merely evidences the reality that there are good offensive players around him that are critical to the success of the offense.

 

[Mavster]

It's interesting to me that Rodgers' presence is more often used as a criticism of TT, who drafted him, than an argument in his favor.

There is no doubt that a great QB is a rising tide that lifts all boats. That's true league wide. However, you can clearly see on the field the players who are great in their own right. The offensive line is arguably the best pass blocking unit in the league. Rodgers routinely has a ton of time despite a lack of balance towards the run. It's not like receivers like Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams are secretly lousy and Rodgers just creates an illusion that they're good. Certainly having an elite QB throwing to you is going to help your box score, but the guys can also play.

If you doubt this, consider the NFCCG wherein Nelson and Adams were playing hurt and the OL fell apart with injury. There was an obvious difference in what Rodgers was able to do. Which is in no way a criticism of Rodgers, but merely evidences the reality that there are good offensive players around him that are critical to the success of the offense.

So Rodgers looked worse in that NFCCG when his best receivers to throw to were Janis and Abby? I'm so shocked.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

It's interesting to me that Rodgers' presence is more often used as a criticism of TT, who drafted him, than an argument in his favor.

I for one have never criticized TT for drafting AR, of course he deserves a lot of credit for it. But like a Chef, who serves up a winning entree, the rest of the meal better be good if he wants full praise. Right now, TT seems to be serving up some spoiled milk, cold beans and wilted cabbage with his perfectly prepared prime rib.

 

[Dantés]

I for one have never criticized TT for drafting AR, of course he deserves a lot of credit for it. But like a Chef, who serves up a winning entree, the rest of the meal better be good if he wants full praise. Right now, TT seems to be serving up some spoiled milk, cold beans and wilted cabbage with his perfectly prepared prime rib.

I know what you're saying, but I think that's extreme. There are other really good players on this roster. The offensive line, for example, is one of the best in the league. Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams are very good wide receivers. I totally agree that Thompson needs to do more (like use FA) to build a better team around Rodgers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the entire roster outside of him is trash.

 

[Dantés]

So Rodgers looked worse in that NFCCG when his best receivers to throw to were Janis and Abby? I'm so shocked.

You're kind of making my point. You're right, obviously Rodgers looked worse without his top targets and with spotty OL play. But that illustrates the reality that there are other good players around him that matter. It's just not Rodgers turning garbage into gold. In other words, TT has drafted some other good players.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I know what you're saying, but I think that's extreme. There are other really good players on this roster. The offensive line, for example, is one of the best in the league. Jordy Nelson and Davante Adams are very good wide receivers. I totally agree that Thompson needs to do more (like use FA) to build a better team around Rodgers, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the entire roster outside of him is trash.

I agree with you, I was mainly referring to the Defense and should have clarified that. On offense, TT has been more solid with his picks than on Defense. Maybe his sous-chef, Capers, needs to take some heat for the latter.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

So Rodgers looked worse in that NFCCG when his best receivers to throw to were Janis and Abby? I'm so shocked.

I'm quite sure Dantés was talking about this year's NFCCG and not the 2015 divisional round game at Arizona.

You're kind of making my point. You're right, obviously Rodgers looked worse without his top targets and with spotty OL play. But that illustrates the reality that there are other good players around him that matter. It's just not Rodgers turning garbage into gold. In other words, TT has drafted some other good players.

There's no doubt Thompson has drafted very well on the offensive side of the ball. Unfortunately that's not true for the most part on defense though.

 

[easyk83]

While that's true for offensive player it's absolutely incorrect on the other side of the ball.

I wonder how much scheme is affecting Teddy's selections. Anyone remember TTs constant whiffs on offensive line between 05 and 07? The hot take was that Teddy couldn't draft OLs to save his life. Then starting in 08 Ted shifted to a bigger bulkier kind of lineman and ran off a string of hits to give us one of the best pass pro OLs in the league.

I wonder how much of Teddy's struggles with defense have to do with Capers defensive system?

It seemed that we had a better defense with Dom forced to call games fit for Teddy's original guys than when Ted started deliberately drafting for Dom's style of defense.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

I wonder how much scheme is affecting Teddy's selections.

I wonder how much of Teddy's struggles with defense have to do with Capers defensive system?

I have wondered about that as well for quite some time. It doesn't make any sense to have held on to both the general manager and defensive coordinator for several years once it became obvious their philosophies didn't match.

 

[PackerDNA]

Once again I'm relying on PFF to provide those numbers as I don't have the time to closely watch 32 teams play but according to them Kendricks only had one good season in 2014 and was below average for the rest of his NFL career. Therefore I'm not interested in trading for him at all.



While that's true for offensive player it's absolutely incorrect on the other side of the ball.



I'm absolutely not interested in the Packers signing Jackson. Perry Riley or Zach Brown may be decent players to pick up if the team decides to improve the position via free agency.



Over the past week you have been advocating for the Packers to sign Chandler Jones, Dont'a Hightower and one of the top cornerbacks available in free agency. Unfortunately the Packers don't have enough cap space to pull off all of that moves.

How about if I talk for myself, and you just listen. I haven't been advocating for anything (yet; until the official 1st day of FA list is out)other than pointing out what's available and that we could get it. And yes, it can be done.

 

[Passepartout]

Yeah as really think that it is about in the draft beefing up the defense. Defense wins championships.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

You're kind of making my point. You're right, obviously Rodgers looked worse without his top targets and with spotty OL play. But that illustrates the reality that there are other good players around him that matter. It's just not Rodgers turning garbage into gold. In other words, TT has drafted some other good players.

I don't know that anyone is saying that Thompson hasn't drafted any other good players, or that the players are garbage. The contention would be that a great QB makes the entire offense look better; the oline players ARE good, Rodgers ability to buy time and set up his linemen to continue blocking while he moves makes them look better. Rodger's effect on the run game should be pretty obvious because you don't often see nine guys in the box against the Packers.

 

[Sunshinepacker]

That's an interesting take and actually true for the first five years of Rodgers tenure as the starting quarterback as the Packers only ranked 26th overall in average yards per rushing attempt from 2008-12.

The team has significantly improved in that category after drafting Lacy in 2013 though ranking fifth over the last four seasons in that category.

This is a little misleading. In 2009 the Packers were 11th in yards per attempt. In 2010 the Packers' main RB was Brandon Jackson (Ryan Grant got hurt for the season in the first game). 2011 the run offense was bad as Ryan Grant was not the same runner after the injury. In 2012 the leading rushers for the Packers were Alex Green, Cedric Benson(!), James Starks and Aaron Rodgers (yup, Rodgers had only 17 fewer carries than Benson or Starks).

So the rush offense was bad during Rodgers first few years but I think that was a result of just having some sub-standard RBs and, when the packers got a guy that was average to above-average, suddenly the rushing offense took off. I don't think anyone believes that Rodgers can turn bad players into good players. A great QB can turn average players into good players and good players into great players.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yeah as really think that it is about in the draft beefing up the defense. Defense wins championships.

It's absolutely possible to win a Super Bowl with a defense ranked outside the top 20 in points allowed.

This is a little misleading. In 2009 the Packers were 11th in yards per attempt. In 2010 the Packers' main RB was Brandon Jackson (Ryan Grant got hurt for the season in the first game). 2011 the run offense was bad as Ryan Grant was not the same runner after the injury. In 2012 the leading rushers for the Packers were Alex Green, Cedric Benson(!), James Starks and Aaron Rodgers (yup, Rodgers had only 17 fewer carries than Benson or Starks).

So the rush offense was bad during Rodgers first few years but I think that was a result of just having some sub-standard RBs and, when the packers got a guy that was average to above-average, suddenly the rushing offense took off. I don't think anyone believes that Rodgers can turn bad players into good players. A great QB can turn average players into good players and good players into great players.

The point of Pokerbrat's post, which I replied to, was that the rushing game struggling suggests that Thompson hasn't drafted that well on the offensive side of the ball either. The situation at running back for the first five years of Rodgers tenure as the starter should work as evidence for that theory.