Free Agency Thread

Pokerbrat2000

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Hope I didn't open up a can of worms.... cue up the TJ Watt comments in 3...2...1
That ship sailed so long ago, I hope most have forgotten that TT passed on Watt and got King and Biegel instead. Besides Jammal Williams and Aaron Jones, that final TT draft in 2017 was one of his most forgettable ones.
 
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That ship sailed so long ago, I hope most have forgotten that TT passed on Watt and got King and Biegel instead. Besides Jammal Williams and Aaron Jones, that final TT draft in 2017 was one of his most forgettable ones.
Yes. But he definitely hit on those 2 RB’s really well. Hard to forget Aaron Jones as he might as well have been selected in that 2nd Round area Ala Dalvin Cook.
I just looked. Adams has been a serviceable starter on several teams and is still playing, although he’s team jumping some also.

So just arguing the other side for fun.. no the 2017 draft wasn’t great but really wasn’t terrible either. If I were objectively grading on a true C (average) scale 2017 produced “C-C+” results. Keeping in mind 3 of that draft class are still under contract through 2024 + 8 years and counting.

We basically got imo what I’d call:
High 2nd Round Value
(Aaron Jones)
Low 3rd Round Value
(Williams)
4th Round Value
(Montravius)

As far as just pure talent etc.
 
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PikeBadger

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AJ Hawk was definitely a ham and egger. Gotta have good lunch pale guys that can tackle 7 yds down the field. His longevity is his legacy. He couldnt cover a TE if he knew the route he was running.
Neither could Dix or Savage.
 

PikeBadger

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AJ or Zadarius?

Two different positions, two different careers with the Packers. Kind of like asking "Apple or orange?" Plus, I really didn' watch much of Z-Dog, if any before he was a Packer and only 2 games since (Viking games).

From a Packer fan perspective, I would 100% say that AJ was the better player (for the Packers).
Haloti Ngata was a seriously good player. I wouldn't have minded having him one bit.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Yes. But he definitely hit on those 2 RB’s really well. Hard to forget Aaron Jones as he might as well have been selected in that 2nd Round area Ala Dalvin Cook.
I just looked. Adams has been a serviceable starter on several teams and is still playing, although he’s team jumping some also.

So just arguing the other side for fun.. no the 2017 draft wasn’t great but really wasn’t terrible either. If I were objectively grading on a true C (average) scale 2017 produced “C-C+” results. Keeping in mind 3 of that draft class are still under contract through 2024 + 8 years and counting.

We basically got imo what I’d call:
High 2nd Round Value
(Aaron Jones)
Low 3rd Round Value
(Williams)
4th Round Value
(Montravius)

As far as just pure talent etc.
We will have to agree to disagree on Adams. He was a guy that the Packers invested a 3rd round pick in. His 4 years with the Packers were played as a backup and not very memorable.

As far as what a player does after he leaves Green Bay, I don't factor that into grading him on "Was he a good draft pick for the Packers?" By using that method (including what he did after he left GB), Vince Biegel could potentially be viewed as a good draft pick for the Packers.
 

Thirteen Below

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We will have to agree to disagree on Adams. He was a guy that the Packers invested a 3rd round pick in. His 4 years with the Packers were played as a backup and not very memorable.

As far as what a player does after he leaves Green Bay, I don't factor that into grading him on "Was he a good draft pick for the Packers?" By using that method (including what he did after he left GB), Vince Biegel could potentially be viewed as a good draft pick for the Packers.
Honestly, he hasn't been the belle of the ball since leaving Green Bay, either. Decent player, good enough and consistent enough to earn a roster spot year after year, but not a star. Not to denigrate the man, because I always thought he seemed like a really decent guy with a great attitude, but he just never topped out at the level we would have liked.

He broke his foot in his frst training camp, and then went on injured reserve mid-season, and that probably didn't do his initial development any good. Even for a 3rd round pick, in the NFL you need to make a good impression early, or the team starts looking harder at other players. Lots of players overcome a poor rookie season, but it does make the hill a little steeper.

One thing I always liked about Adams is that when his agent dialed his cell phone late on Day Two to tell him it was Green Bay, Adams was in the delivery room of the hospital welcoming his first born child into the word. What a day, eh?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Not sure what year he was drafted..but..Lawrence Guy has had a pretty decent career. Mostly with the Patriots though.
7th rounder for the Packers. Not much of an investment, but too bad they didn't hang on to him. Maybe gad he not gotten injured his rookie year, they would have seen his potential?

He's a Free agent now.
 
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As far as just pure talent etc.

As far as what a player does after he leaves Green Bay, I don't factor that into grading him on "Was he a good draft pick for the Packers?" By using that method (including what he did after he left GB), Vince Biegel could potentially be viewed as a good draft pick for the Packers.
Sure. But it’s also why finished with the above comment. It depends on how the question is asked. I was answering as to the quality of the GM’s homework on said player. Is a player a poor choice because they played on more than a drafting team? Obviously not there’s countless examples of players who switch teams and that doesn’t imply they are bad draft picks imo. Players leave for all sorts of reasons and mainly $$$

If the question is did the player prove himself to be a worthy talent and hold his weight with the drafting team? Now that’s a far different question than did the GM do an adequate job finding a player whose talent was worthy of a Top 100 area selection. That I’d agree with because they are completely different questions.

However, taking that argument as far as saying Biegel was as productive as Montravius or that they are the same grade? is not true. Interestingly enough Biegel and Adams both got drafted very close in the draft, so that comparison is about as close as you can get aside from position. #93 and #108 is basically about the same capital used I think you would agree.Vince Biegel hasn’t played a meaningful snap since his Junior Pro campaign in 2019.

Montravious just signed a contract for the 24-25 seasons. No comparison whatsoever. In a fictitious draft redo of 2017 Adams would be selected Mid draft (or better) and Biegel would be selected as a Priority Undrafted area.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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I was answering as to the quality of the GM’s homework on said player.
If you take into account the drafting teams investment and a player doesn't have a productive "stint" with that drafting team, do you feel like the GM did his homework or that the drafting team did well on their investment?

If I am a stock broker and I continually give you advice on stocks that lose you money while you are holding them, but do really well after I have convince you to sell them, am I a good stock broker?

I feel like you are answering a question such as: "Did/Is Montavious Adams having a productive career in the NFL for a 3rd round pick?" To that question, I would agree with your answer. However, if the question is "Was Montravious Adams a good draft investment/pick for the Green Bay Packers, I would say "No, especially not for a 3rd round pick."

@Team Ronny mentioned Lawrence Guy. The Packers only invested a 7th round pick in Guy. Would you say Guy was a GREAT investment for the Packers, considering his career 13 years later? Had he spent all 13 of those years on the Packer roster and still had the same stats that he has now, I would say "He was an absolute steal and worth way more than the investment." However, he didn't play a snap for the Packers, so they got zero return on a small investment.
 

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If you take into account the drafting teams investment and a player doesn't have a productive "stint" with that drafting team, do you feel like the GM did his homework or that the drafting team did well on their investment?

If I am a stock broker and I continually give you advice on stocks that lose you money while you are holding them, but do really well after I have convince you to sell them, am I a good stock broker?

I feel like you are answering a question such as: "Did/Is Montavious Adams having a productive career in the NFL for a 3rd round pick?" To that question, I would agree with your answer. However, if the question is "Was Montravious Adams a good draft investment/pick for the Green Bay Packers, I would say "No, especially not for a 3rd round pick."

@Team Ronny mentioned Lawrence Guy. The Packers only invested a 7th round pick in Guy. Would you say Guy was a GREAT investment for the Packers, considering his career 13 years later? Had he spent all 13 of those years on the Packer roster and still had the same stats that he has now, I would say "He was an absolute steal and worth way more than the investment." However, he didn't play a snap for the Packers, so they got zero return on a small investment.
I think it's totally unfair to the scouts to poo-poo guys like Adams and Guy. They have to have confidence in the coaching staff to correctly utilize and develop the talent identified. Now, the GM is ultimately responsible for the quality of his coaching staff but we never seem to place that responsibility correctly here imo. Packer GM's identifying talent imo has never been a problem. We have however in the past had problems developing and utilizing defensive talent. We've been very good on the offensive side of the ball imo. Guys like Jones, Bakhtiari, R. Walker, Linsley, Tom, Doubs and the myriad of 2nd round picks that have been very good NFL players I think attest to that.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Packer GM's identifying talent imo has never been a problem. We have however in the past had problems developing and utilizing defensive talent.

How do you explain players like Amari Rodgers, Sternberger, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Josh Jones, Jason Spriggs, Quinton Rollins, Jerel Worthy.....and on an on?

I look at those players and see guys picked in the first 4 rounds, that not only didn't do much with the Packers, but failed with other teams. I think that is a clear indication that it wasn't coaching, more a failure of scouting/GM. Of course, there is always the argument that these guys didn't have the mental makeup to be good NFL players, but that somewhat goes back to scouting/GM.

I can also see having a discussion of "this player didn't work well in the Packers defense/offense, but excelled elsewhere". I would put that on the GM/scouts, as well as some on the coaching. If a player was a bad fit, perhaps the he should never have been drafted, but maybe with better coaching, that obstacle is worked around.
 

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How do you explain players like Amari Rodgers, Sternberger, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Josh Jones, Jason Spriggs, Quinton Rollins, Jerel Worthy.....and on an on?

I look at those players and see guys picked in the first 4 rounds, that not only didn't do much with the Packers, but failed with other teams. I think that is a clear indication that it wasn't coaching, more a failure of scouting/GM. Of course, there is always the argument that these guys didn't have the mental makeup to be good NFL players, but that somewhat goes back to scouting/GM.

I can also see having a discussion of "this player didn't work well in the Packers defense/offense, but excelled elsewhere". I would put that on the GM/scouts, as well as some on the coaching. If a player was a bad fit, perhaps the he should never have been drafted, but maybe with better coaching, that obstacle is worked around.

I wish I could find the thread where I broke down Gute's time as the lead and our draftees and how many were still active in the NFL vs many of the other "assumed great" team ownerships.

Folks I think forget just how damn hard it is to predict a prospect's success at the next level. My scout/war room connection informed me of two things which NO scout and NO GM can ever have enough confidence to write in stone about a prospect:

- They will be able to process and execute the speed of the NFL game/playbook
- They will be able to handle the lifestyle and level of which they've accomplished

Those two things there isn't an interview question or collection of questions that will answer definitively....there isn't a college program or enough film studying which will answer that definitively. He said one GM he worked for told him that the absolute BEST prospect he ever drafted he would say he had about 60-65% confidence he knew the type of player he was getting - which is massively different than the player he may be (or the "ceiling" a lot of folks call it).

Josh Jackson was a prospect that many saw every tool in the toolbox for, that at minimum should be a top two round prospect....he started UNFIRE out the gate too it seemed and just absolutely couldn't grow for whatever reason.

Truthfully many of those guys were either dudes that EXCELLED in college, seemed to have the makings of a clear top 100 at worst prospect and just flat didn't pan out.

I've mentioned it before...if half your draft class is good enough to still be in the NFL after their rookie year contract not year - that's a pretty freaking good draft class.
 

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I think a fair question is would GB have been better off taking Vernon Davis. That was the chatter at that time as most thought D'Brick would be taken by the time GB selected. Vernon had a good, but not spectacular career if I remember correctly and would have been a very athletic tight end for the tail end of Favre's career and the start of Aaron's.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I wish I could find the thread where I broke down Gute's time as the lead and our draftees and how many were still active in the NFL vs many of the other "assumed great" team ownerships.

Folks I think forget just how damn hard it is to predict a prospect's success at the next level. My scout/war room connection informed me of two things which NO scout and NO GM can ever have enough confidence to write in stone about a prospect:

- They will be able to process and execute the speed of the NFL game/playbook
- They will be able to handle the lifestyle and level of which they've accomplished

Those two things there isn't an interview question or collection of questions that will answer definitively....there isn't a college program or enough film studying which will answer that definitively. He said one GM he worked for told him that the absolute BEST prospect he ever drafted he would say he had about 60-65% confidence he knew the type of player he was getting - which is massively different than the player he may be (or the "ceiling" a lot of folks call it).

Josh Jackson was a prospect that many saw every tool in the toolbox for, that at minimum should be a top two round prospect....he started UNFIRE out the gate too it seemed and just absolutely couldn't grow for whatever reason.

Truthfully many of those guys were either dudes that EXCELLED in college, seemed to have the makings of a clear top 100 at worst prospect and just flat didn't pan out.

I've mentioned it before...if half your draft class is good enough to still be in the NFL after their rookie year contract not year - that's a pretty freaking good draft class.
Good post and in case I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to "place 100 % of the blame" on any one person involved in the process. There are so many other factors that go into whether a player is successful or not in the NFL; injuries, luck, surroundings, family events, etc. However, I was trying to point out that players that leave the Packers as failed draft picks and go to another teams(s) and fail there as well, should be viewed differently than a player that leaves the Packers without much success, but blossoms elsewhere.
 

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How do you explain players like Amari Rodgers, Sternberger, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Josh Jones, Jason Spriggs, Quinton Rollins, Jerel Worthy.....and on an on?

I look at those players and see guys picked in the first 4 rounds, that not only didn't do much with the Packers, but failed with other teams. I think that is a clear indication that it wasn't coaching, more a failure of scouting/GM. Of course, there is always the argument that these guys didn't have the mental makeup to be good NFL players, but that somewhat goes back to scouting/GM.

I can also see having a discussion of "this player didn't work well in the Packers defense/offense, but excelled elsewhere". I would put that on the GM/scouts, as well as some on the coaching. If a player was a bad fit, perhaps the he should never have been drafted, but maybe with better coaching, that obstacle is worked around.
Compared with the other 31 teams who ALWAYS hit on all their draft picks and field excellent teams every year????

I think your expectations are extremely unrealistic.
 

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How do you explain players like Amari Rodgers, Sternberger, Josh Jackson, J'Mon Moore, Josh Jones, Jason Spriggs, Quinton Rollins, Jerel Worthy.....and on an on?

I look at those players and see guys picked in the first 4 rounds, that not only didn't do much with the Packers, but failed with other teams. I think that is a clear indication that it wasn't coaching, more a failure of scouting/GM. Of course, there is always the argument that these guys didn't have the mental makeup to be good NFL players, but that somewhat goes back to scouting/GM.

I can also see having a discussion of "this player didn't work well in the Packers defense/offense, but excelled elsewhere". I would put that on the GM/scouts, as well as some on the coaching. If a player was a bad fit, perhaps the he should never have been drafted, but maybe with better coaching, that obstacle is worked around.
I think you're giving the coaching staff a huge pass here.
It's the scouts job to identify NFL talent, not to assess capabilities of the coaching staff. The head coach needs to get rid of assistants that are failing to develop talent.
 

PikeBadger

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I wish I could find the thread where I broke down Gute's time as the lead and our draftees and how many were still active in the NFL vs many of the other "assumed great" team ownerships.

Folks I think forget just how damn hard it is to predict a prospect's success at the next level. My scout/war room connection informed me of two things which NO scout and NO GM can ever have enough confidence to write in stone about a prospect:

- They will be able to process and execute the speed of the NFL game/playbook
- They will be able to handle the lifestyle and level of which they've accomplished

Those two things there isn't an interview question or collection of questions that will answer definitively....there isn't a college program or enough film studying which will answer that definitively. He said one GM he worked for told him that the absolute BEST prospect he ever drafted he would say he had about 60-65% confidence he knew the type of player he was getting - which is massively different than the player he may be (or the "ceiling" a lot of folks call it).


Josh Jackson was a prospect that many saw every tool in the toolbox for, that at minimum should be a top two round prospect....he started UNFIRE out the gate too it seemed and just absolutely couldn't grow for whatever reason.

Truthfully many of those guys were either dudes that EXCELLED in college, seemed to have the makings of a clear top 100 at worst prospect and just flat didn't pan out.

I've mentioned it before...if half your draft class is good enough to still be in the NFL after their rookie year contract not year - that's a pretty freaking good draft class.
This is awesome information from the inside. Thanks for sharing Tynimiller
 

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There are coaches that coach, and coaches that lead. It's okay to be one or the other, but a successful team has both.
 

DoURant

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FA signing today, not a big one, but still signing non the less...CB Gemon Green. Was signed as an UDFA by the Giants last yr, and spent a little time on their PS. Played college ball at Michigan.
 

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Pokerbrat2000

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FA signing today, not a big one, but still signing non the less...CB Gemon Green. Was signed as an UDFA by the Giants last yr, and spent a little time on their PS. Played college ball at Michigan.
His younger brother German is also a DB from Michigan and a potential draftee or UDFA in 2 weeks. Wouldn't that be a bit confusing if the Packers land his brother too. Gemon and Germon, what where their parents thinking?
 

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His younger brother German is also a CB from Michigan and a potential draftee or UDFA in 2 weeks. Wouldn't that be a bit confusing if the Packers land his brother too. Gemon and Germon, what where their parents thinking?
Add McKinstry with McKinney, and the secondary room will be a mess.;)
 

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