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Challenging the new coach thinking

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by net, Oct 19, 2005.

  1. net

    net Cheesehead

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    Packers lose four games and all the Internet boards are speculating on a new coach.

    It might happen, but probably not, at least not this year.

    Lets look at the following scenerios:

    1)The Packers go 11-0 the rest of the way. Change coach then? No. Likely to happen? Probably not.

    2)Packers go 9-2 the rest of the way. Change coach then? No. 10-6 probably wins the division. Likely to happen? Probably not, but possible.

    3) Packers go 7-4 the rest of the way. Change coach then? Probably not, as 8-8 could win the North division.

    4)Packers go 5-6 rest of the way? They finish 6-10, probably out of the playoffs. Change coach? Maybe.

    5)Any combination of more losses than victories. I don't think they are going 0-11, which would trigger a coaching change.

    The majority of scenerios I laid out above show me there will be no coaching change after this year unless the team totally tanks.

    In fact, I think the Packers are starting to look like a fairly competitive team, capable of beating some good teams. They will have to with the Bengals and Steelers coming up. But I think they are very capable of running the slate against the rest of the division, meaning five wins.

    I also challenge the prevailing notion that the Packers can toss Sherman aside after this year with no problem. The Packers don't have an endless well of money to throw away $6mill on Sherman, then have to pay a new coach(and staff) millions more, then rebuild into the new system. If Thompson wanted to make a change, he simply would have let Sherman go this year ($3 mill) or let him play out the season under the guise of talking about it "later". Thompson started the rebuilding THIS YEAR with Sherman.
    Some would say Jim Bates is already on staff. True, but what do you gain by making THAT switch? Bates would have to bring in an offensive leader, and do you think Brett wants to learn a new offense at age 36?

    The majority of scenerios lead me to believe Thompson has made the decision to stick with Sherman as long as Brett is around, which tells me both might be around next year. Even if Favre retires, it still wouldn't make any sense to invest in rookies to learn this system, only to have it upended next year.

    It makes no sense from a financial and strategic standpoint, so I think Sherman stays one more year, regardless of outcome, unless the team goes completely south.
     
  2. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    If they come anywhere near an 8-8 season... I look for Ted Thompson to re-consider the OC chair. The DC chair is set - and everyone knows it. But, TT's no fool, and history under Sherman demonstrates, in a large way, that the missing element has been a top-drawer (Charlie Weis?) Offensive Coordinator.

    If anything - look for the GBP's to pull the cord on that spot, ala Houston Texans.
     
  3. packer4ever

    packer4ever Cheesehead

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    Do you really think Charlie Weis would come to Green Bay? Didn't he just leave a offensive cordinator job in New England to go to college? Norv Turner should be available after this year. He can't be a head coach, but he knows how to run an offense.
     
  4. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    I did NOT say - "Charlie Weis should have come to Green Bay.."
    Try and not put words in people's mouths....

    I was using Charlie Weis as an example of who we can cite as a top-drawer OC.
    Ask yourself - without Charlie Weis, do we ever see Tom Brady being able to take his Team to the SuperBowl, three times? Or is it more like what we're seeing in Denver these last two to three years? Think about it! Charlie Weis "made" Tom Brady... Brady admits it, outright.
     
  5. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    net....shame on you. Why would you cloud this issue with facts and numbers. Remember the golden rule on forum and message boards. Never, ever let facts get in the way of an issue!
     
  6. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Damn fact...hate them...they ALWAYS get in the way of a good rant!
     
  7. packer4ever

    packer4ever Cheesehead

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    Sorry I blew up
     
  8. mattresell

    mattresell Cheesehead

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    Got this form another site eplaining the standard forum arguement:

    Apparently, you aren’t familiar with the process of internet argumentation. The goal is to misinterpret and subsequently misrepresent the initial thesis in such a way as to make it easy to refute. That should then be countered with frustration, anger, and dismissive language.

    This whole “reasoned clarificationâ€
     
  9. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Net and DePack:

    Here's a fact for ya'....

    Mike Sherman's playoff record....2-4...fire his ***!

    Net,

    I can't begin to tell you all of the ways that your argument does not make sense. There's simply not enough time.

    The reason that Holmgren is a better coach than Sherman is that Holmgren's teams have been in the playoff hunt just about every year..and that is without the benefit of having Brett Favre! (An important point..!) This year..the Seahawks are in 1st place in the NFC west and have the number 1 offense in the NFL! The reason, DePack, that the Seachickens didn't beat the Packers (AT LAMBEAU) in the playoffs a few years ago was because Matt Hasselbeck threw an ill advised pass..right at Al Harris. But they should have beaten the Pack because they were the better team that day. If they had, I do believe Sherman would have been fired last year, and rightfully so...

    That being said..the reason Sherman should be fired net, is that has been NO PROGRESS with the Packers as there has with other teams who are on the rise....

    (Tampa Bay, KC..Denver, Seahawks...Eagles..etc..etc..) And quite frankly, there are alot of other personel out there who would be better than Mike Sherman because he is simply a bad coach. He may be a decent positions coach, but he is a piss-poor head coach, plain and simple. He is a terrible game day coach, terrible game planner, terrible judge of assistant coaching talent..etc..etc.....and he is getting worse, not better...
     
  10. wpr

    wpr Cheesehead

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    P@ck66,
    Sherman may well deserve to be fired in the long run. He may be a horrible HC but how can you say Sea was the better team in the playoff game? Maybe GB didn't play to their full potential. The have frequently fallen short in my estimation over the years.
    But here are the teams stats for the game:

    1st downs Sea 22 GB 22 Tie
    3rd down conversion 38% 31% Sea
    4th down conv 100% 100% Tie
    Net yards 340 397 GB
    Off plays 68 70 GB
    Yds/ play 5.0 5.7 GB
    Rushing Yds 49 78 GB
    Total rushes 21 32 who cares
    Avg/ rush 2.3 2.4 GB
    Tackled for loss 5-10 1-8 GB
    Passing yds 291 319 GB
    Sacked 2-14 0-0 GB
    Intercepted 1 0 GB
    Avg/pass 6.2 8.4 GB
    Punt gross avg 37.5 38.4 GB
    Net avg 31.0 27.2 Sea
    Returns:
    Punt 1-16 3-39 GB
    KO 7-98 6-103 GB
    Penalties 2-15 5-30 Sea
    Fumbles 1-0 0-0 GB
    FG 2-2 2-3 Sea
    Red zone 60% 50% Sea
    Goal to go 75% 100%
    Time of possession 29:26 34:59 GB
    the stats are not great for either team but in most categories the Packers had better stats. I don't see how you can say Sea deserved to win.
     
  11. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    wpr...

    As i recall, the seachickens were basically moving up and down the field at will against the Pack, and Brett Favre kept bringing them back (as usual..)

    And the Seahawks were driving again, in overtime, and were most likely going to score when Al Harris made the interception for the TD...

    but the momentum was definitely with the Seahawks...
     
  12. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

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    66....it's over.....you have no credibility. Again you start with Sherman's playoff record but refuse to enlighten us to Holmy's playoff record over the same time period. Why is that?

    I thought you were a true Packer fan. I even defended you against others but for you to say that the Seahawk's should have won that game just proves that you are really just an internet troll. Viking fan? Bear fan?....come clean. Hate Sherman and I can handle that, but hate everything about the Packers except Favre means you're a fraud.
     
  13. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Do you mean to tell me that you didn't think the Seahawks were going to win that game before the interception?

    If you are, then you are a liar DePack...everybody thought the seahawks were going to win when they got to the 50 yard line.....

    I am a Packer fan through and through...BUT i will not admit that Sherman is a good coach when I know he is terrible....

    and the only reason that Sherman has ANY playoff wins at all is because of Brett Favre...admit it DePack..you KNOW that Holmgren is a better coach and it's killing you...

    someone back me up here...who else thought that the Seahawks had momentum in that game and were going to win?

    (and it is not being "disloyal" to the Pack...if you thought that..)

    anyone?
     
  14. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Let's sidestep the "fault-finding" tour with each other.. for just a bit....

    I would like to re-hash Mike Sherman's performance at Detroit's Ford Field.
    You guys remember - the game where a certain OC was forced to stay home to recuperate...

    How do we rate his performance on that game?

    All the while realizing he was 'forced' to handle the situation ....all alone. (Was he?)
    Should we take into account the fact that now (possibly) no one was buzzing around his ear?
    A better question to be asked - did he really game plan by himself?

    We've heard Mike Sherman say out-loud that "he calls the plays"... But, does he really?

    And, since the OC has been back - what's the true score?

    He sorta contradicts himself with how the HC & OC pre-plan games together.
    You have to admit one thing - each game plan so far this year - has had a college level approach to it.
    At least that's my take about all of it.

    If we are to believe - the Coaching Staff do, indeed, work together, period.
    That would mean 24/7 - and the HC / OC / DC ....are all in it together.

    We can tell already, from last year's debacle - that this DC is pulling his own weight this year.
    And that the Players are buying into the Defensive scheme(s). AGREED?

    On what part of the Offensive side of the ball, should we now bring in Larry Beightol?
    I'm talking about input.... Certainly, we all have a very palat-ible respect for Larry.
    He's earned it..... But, did Sherman dis-regard his input, or suggestions?
    (All of this is just retrospect - we're not gonna have any power over any of it.)

    The point I'm getting at - is how long it took to "try other options" with the O-Line personnel.
    (Meaning for the first few games this year, until the 2nd half vs. Carolina)
    Who had last say over that? Was it Sherman... or Rossley?
    Was information being "filtered/stopped" between Coaches?

    As in some issues in everyday life - did the breadcrumbs to resolution disappear?
    Was something suggested - yet the proper person.... NOT TOLD?
    Certainly Brett would have said something after being chased all over the backfield. Correct?

    Is one of Sherman's problems.. how he tends to avoid mingling with the Players?
    Is he a "white collar / blue collar" type Manager?
    Shouldn't the Coach "want" to be on the sideline discussing game tactics with his NO. 1 QB?

    Holmgren made this approach his 'mainstay' with driving the Packers to two SuperBowl appearances.
    Yet Mike Sherman seems.. to consistently avoid it, during games!
    You always see Brett Favre, over on the bench, interacting with practically no one.

    Am I seeing things....? I don't think so... Let's hear your input :!:
     
  15. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Good points..IBPrez...

    also, don't forget...

    He said that Flannigan will "regain" his position when he comes back from his injury....

    What was that about?

    Did Beightol agree to this?

    Also, remember last year when certain coaches said that Sherman.."refused to listen to their input.."
     
  16. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    and his play is mostly responsible for at least 3 of the 4 losses. Since you also seem to be unable or unwilling to answer the question 66, Holmgren's playoff record in Seattle is 0-3.
     
  17. Beab66

    Beab66 Cheesehead

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    I've always been the Sherman apologist but one report last season really bothered me. When Rossely was absent last season Farve evidently was brought into the loop with the gameplan and was given input. (e.g. Detroit) When Rossely was brought back, Favre was on the outside again and this was said to really bothered him. I heard this on the roadshow outside Lambeau field on WTMJ. The reporters were then discussing the possible retirement of Favre and cited this one incident as a possible reason for Brett to retire. Sounds like the old flip-flop for Mike and really damaged his credibility to these reporters.
     
  18. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    OK..TO....Here's a question that i'm sure you and Depack are unwilling to answer..(honestly..)

    Who is a better coach....Sherman or Holmgren?
     
  19. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    In my book - Flanny should NOT be coming back until the FULL SIX WEEKS has elapsed.
    It's a major - posssibly career-ending - mistake, to do otherwise!
    I would think that Larry Beightol has made "this point" straight to Sherman.
    Now - consider where the OC might step into the conversation ....right about now.

    Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall - for discussions about the Packer's Center?
    For my money - we leave Scott Wells right where he is....
     
  20. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Beab...

    that's because Sherman is so insecure and unsure of himself, that he needs Rossley to hold his hand during games..(don't ask me why...)

    And I personally think he would rather have Favre gone and be working with a rookie QB so that his glaring indecisions and insecurities wouldn't be so well noticed...

    this is why i can't stand Sherman and don't trust him....

    this is why he can't accept the input of anyone but Rossley....

    He is a control freak who does not want to be found out as an incompetent..which is what he is....
     
  21. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

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    Was this issue ever put to print?

    It blends perfectly with my earlier post... on Coaching tactics...
    (white collar / blue collar -- Rossley's irritation with Favre, and why is that?)
     
  22. wpr

    wpr Cheesehead

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    P@ck,
    I don't mind your opinion but I got the stats right from the Packer website.

    http://www.packers.com/images/gamebooks ... mebook.pdf
    (sorry i meant to put the link in last time.)

    Sea couldn't have been "moving up and down the field" with 340 "only" yards. It just seems that way since we expected GB to totally dominate that day and they didn't.
    The int return was 52 yards but the line of scrimmage was the Sea 45. It was 3 and 11. so if Al just knocked it down it would have been GB ball.
    The drives that Sea had were:
    Ball Possession And Drive Chart
    Seattle Seahawks vs Green Bay Packers
    1/4/2004 at Lambeau Field
    * inside opponent's 20
    # Time Recd Time Lost Time Poss How Ball Obtained Drive Began # Play Yds Pen Net Yds Yds Gain 1st Down LastScrm How Given Up
    1 11:54 7:01 4:53 Punt SEA 31 10 57 0 57 4 * GB 12 Field Goal
    2 2:37 0:43 1:54 Punt SEA 20 3 9 0 9 0 SEA 29 Punt
    3 12:17 11:14 1:03 Punt SEA 20 3 2 -10 -8 0 SEA 12 Punt
    4 9:13 6:50 2:23 Kickoff SEA 32 8 51 0 51 3 * GB 17 Field Goal
    5 4:37 2:18 2:19 Kickoff SEA 24 3 -17 0 -17 0 SEA 7 Punt
    6 0:46 0:09 0:37 Kickoff SEA 32 3 5 5 10 1 SEA 42 Punt
    7 15:00 9:28 5:32 Kickoff SEA 26 10 74 0 74 5 *GB 1 Touchdown
    8 6:54 1:57 4:57 Punt SEA 23 11 77 0 77 4 *GB 1 Touchdown
    9 10:01 9:30 0:31 Kickoff SEA 32 3 0 -5 -5 0 SEA 27 Punt
    10 2:44 0:51 1:53 Kickoff SEA 33 7 62 5 67 4 *GB 1 Touchdown
    11 15:00 13:55 1:05 Kickoff SEA 33 3 9 0 9 0 SEA 42 Punt
    12 12:54 10:35 2:19 Punt SEA 34 6 11 0 11 1 SEA 45 Interception

    There were only 2 really good long drives (10 plays & 70+ yards) that ended up in a TD. (A another long drive where they made a FG. A TD drive with a shorter # of plays and yards gets honorable mentions.)
    But they had 7 more drives that netted them 0 points and only 9 net yards for all those drives combined.
    Another way to look at it is this
    1st Q they had the ball twice 66 yds FG
    2nd Q 4 poss 36 yds FG
    3rd Q 2 poss 151 yds 2 TD (THIS WAS THEIR ONLY GREAT Q
    4th Q 2 poss 62 yds TD (I hate prevent defenses)
    OT 2 poss 20 yds
     
  23. TOPackerFan

    TOPackerFan Cheesehead

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    I'm not sure who is better. IMO, they're about equal.
     
  24. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Wow..really..

    that's surprising..because in my mind...i think Holmgren's WAY better as a coach...i don't give Holmgren high marks as a GM...(but in this too..he's better than Sherman)....

    interesting that you feel that way though...

    blows my mind...
     
  25. PackerChick

    PackerChick Cheesehead

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    I say Holmgren. He bought the Pack back to the promised land from years of mediocrity. He also bought us all the way, won the Lombardi trophy back in 1997. Bought pride back to the team. Sherman did respectably, kept us in the playoffs despite our losses, but we seemed to lose the Lambeau advantage with him, but hes better than most coaches right now including pencil head and granny glasses in minn. Holmgren is nothing in Seattle compared to Green Bay.
     

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