Arrogant General Managers

Pokerbrat2000

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That's probably because QB is the only position in which one guy plays the entire game

Huh?

You basing that on snaps? You don't think that all the other 21 starters on offense and defense and the 3 starters on Special are worried about the Packers bringing someone in that could potentially take their jobs?

How many other times has a very good QB, that wasn't threatening to retire for 3 consecutive off-seasons, seen his team use a first round pick on a QB? I'm also pretty sure he's not concerned about being unemployed.

Again, trying to draw the line perfectly to fit around AR doesn't change things at all. Actually, Rodgers should have been the guy to laugh off the idea of being replaced more than any other guy would, based just on your rationale for why it was odd that the Packers drafted Love.

Let me flip the question on you. How many other times have you seen a Starting QB be offended by a team drafting or signing another QB, so much that he threatened to retire?
 

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If we can get some draft picks great. But if Rodgers wants to retire there’s nothing we can do to control being a prick
I think we were looking for a QB when we found Favre and Rodgers. I think we can be looking again

Not that I don't agree with the philosophy, but we also were looking for a QB after Starr, and how did that work out? :)
 
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I'm not here to say who's right or wrong in the current standoff but in retrospect it certainly appears that Gute drafted Rodgers' replacement a little early.
No doubt about it. Looking back in hindsight and studying Love’s traits a bit, he hit QB a year or two earlier because he saw a high potential candidate for the job that needed a few years refining. There’s no question he drafts a QB before Rodgers turned 40 either way.
 
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Not that I don't agree with the philosophy, but we also were looking for a QB after Starr, and how did that work out? :)
That’s a good point. There ain’t no guarantees that’s for sure. We might go through a QB or 2. But I’m confident we can find one that is beyond serviceable. I know we are trying to convince Rodgers to buy in to this philosophy, but he’s already stated clearly doesn’t believe in our philosophy. His words not mine.

We need better balance IMO and that’s done by spreading resources on both sides. That’s difficult to do when 1 player takes up over 20% of the teams money and he’s trying to go after a record $ making deal for himself. That’s might be his prerogative, but it doesn’t have to be ours.

People can argue all they want, but we’ll rounded teams win championships. I would also argue you need full commitment to go along with that. Internal turmoil or conflict will blow the whole program up. He stated his intentions very very clearly snd I don’t think he was bluffing.

Aaron Rodgers is NOT the only way to win SB’s. He couldn’t even carry the team winning MVP, how much better does he need to play??
Give me a top 7 scoring Defense, a Top 8 scoring Offense and adequate ST (top 10-15). One that doesn’t hurt you like ours. That’s the winning recipe almost every season in modern history.
 
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Pokerbrat2000

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Not that I don't agree with the philosophy, but we also were looking for a QB after Starr, and how did that work out? :)

The Packers found several "nice fellows" for a number of years, they just weren't very good QB's ;). I think we are all "afraid" of that scenario repeating itself, but even in the best of circumstances, that window was slowly opening anyway, this just throws it wide open.

The positive side for the organization with a trade, they could potentially hurry up that process more than they would have been able to if Rodgers just retired and rode off into the sunset in the next 5 or so years. I look back at what the Rams did with an aging John Hadl, they milked the Packers for two first-rounders, two second-rounders and a third-rounder, sound familiar? The Rams used those picks to vault them into a contending team. Rodgers is probably no John Hadl, but he very well could be the Packers finally getting some good Karma on that situation 47 years later.
 

Sunshinepacker

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Huh?

You basing that on snaps? You don't think that all the other 21 starters on offense and defense and the 3 starters on Special are worried about the Packers bringing someone in that could potentially take their jobs?



Again, trying to draw the line perfectly to fit around AR doesn't change things at all. Actually, Rodgers should have been the guy to laugh off the idea of being replaced more than any other guy would, based just on your rationale for why it was odd that the Packers drafted Love.

Let me flip the question on you. How many other times have you seen a Starting QB be offended by a team drafting or signing another QB, so much that he threatened to retire?

I fit my point to Rodgers because we're talking about Rodgers. Not many other top-5 all-time QBs out there. Again, how many other elite QBs saw their team draft their replacement in the 1st round? And is it not strange that Green Bay, to my knowledge, is the only team to have done it and they appear to have done it twice?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I fit my point to Rodgers because we're talking about Rodgers. Not many other top-5 all-time QBs out there. Again, how many other elite QBs saw their team draft their replacement in the 1st round? And is it not strange that Green Bay, to my knowledge, is the only team to have done it and they appear to have done it twice?

Giants just drafted Doug Jones with the #6 pick in the 2019 draft. Eli Manning was still the starter and had just turned 38 when they did that. Here is a link if you want to look at all the first round QB's and make a complete list.

First-round quarterbacks, by team, in the Super Bowl era - ProFootballTalk (nbcsports.com)

You are right, it happened one other time in Packer history and look how it worked out, so what is your point? ;)

Again, you are using your parameter of using a first round pick, which in the case of Love was #26, as your line of making it a bad decision to draft a QB. I can look back at the Patriots and see what they did since drafting Brady in the 6th round in 2000.
  • 2002: #117 Rohan Davey
  • 2003: #201 Cliff Kingsbury
  • 2005: #230: Matt Cassel
  • 2008: #94: Kevin O'Connell
  • 2010: #250: Zac Robinson
  • 2011: #74: Ryan Mallet
  • 2014: #62: Jimmy G.
  • 2016: #91: Jacoby Brissett
  • 2018: #219: Danny Etling
  • 2019: #133: Jarret Stidham
  • 2021: #15: Zac Jones
No first round picks, but plenty of draft capital spent on 10 QB's by Belichick while Brady was the starter. I am sure with each one, Tom Brady was nervous as hell (sarcasm) that he was about to get replaced. I am sure you are going to say that BB never had any intention of drafting someone to replace Brady. I would disagree and say that BB, just like Gute with the Love, was doing what a good GM does and trying to find a capable QB that might be ready if something happened to Brady/Rodgers.


Since Rodgers started in 2008, the Packers have drafted a total of 3 QB's (Coleman, Hundley and Love). I would think Rodgers biggest scare to date was when the Packers drafted both Brian Brohm (#56) and Matt Flynn (#209) in 2008, the Draft before Rodgers officially became the Packers QB.
 

rmontro

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If we have to call his bluff, do we even want him back? If he comes back resentfully because he doesn't really want to retire, is he even going to be a motivated player (like he was last year)? Or does he phone it in? Does his pride even allow him to phone it in?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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If we have to call his bluff, do we even want him back? If he comes back resentfully because he doesn't really want to retire, is he even going to be a motivated player (like he was last year)? Or does he phone it in? Does his pride even allow him to phone it in?

It's a great question and a fair one that Gute and the Packers have to be asking themselves. While I doubt he would ever phone anything in, I just don't see him being happy being "forced into" playing in Green Bay. How that will effect his game? I doubt much. How that will effect him in the Locker Room, I think that is the bigger unknown.
 

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Giants just drafted Doug Jones with the #6 pick in the 2019 draft. Eli Manning was still the starter and had just turned 38 when they did that. Here is a link if you want to look at all the first round QB's and make a complete list.

First-round quarterbacks, by team, in the Super Bowl era - ProFootballTalk (nbcsports.com)

You are right, it happened one other time in Packer history and look how it worked out, so what is your point? ;)

Again, you are using your parameter of using a first round pick, which in the case of Love was #26, as your line of making it a bad decision to draft a QB. I can look back at the Patriots and see what they did since drafting Brady in the 6th round in 2000.
  • 2002: #117 Rohan Davey
  • 2003: #201 Cliff Kingsbury
  • 2005: #230: Matt Cassel
  • 2008: #94: Kevin O'Connell
  • 2010: #250: Zac Robinson
  • 2011: #74: Ryan Mallet
  • 2014: #62: Jimmy G.
  • 2016: #91: Jacoby Brissett
  • 2018: #219: Danny Etling
  • 2019: #133: Jarret Stidham
  • 2021: #15: Zac Jones
No first round picks, but plenty of draft capital spent on 10 QB's by Belichick while Brady was the starter. I am sure with each one, Tom Brady was nervous as hell (sarcasm) that he was about to get replaced. I am sure you are going to say that BB never had any intention of drafting someone to replace Brady. I would disagree and say that BB, just like Gute with the Love, was doing what a good GM does and trying to find a capable QB that might be ready if something happened to Brady/Rodgers.


Since Rodgers started in 2008, the Packers have drafted a total of 3 QB's (Coleman, Hundley and Love). I would think Rodgers biggest scare to date was when the Packers drafted both Brian Brohm (#56) and Matt Flynn (#209) in 2008, the Draft before Rodgers officially became the Packers QB.

I'm using the 1st round parameter because that's what happened in Green Bay. Using 2nd and 3rd round picks isn't what Green Bay did. Also, :laugh::laugh::laugh: at Eli Manning being an "elite QB" when they drafted Jones. You can keep being cozy in your belief that using 1st round picks is okay for a team when they have a great QB but it's just not true and I would expect pretty much every top-10 QB in the NFL to be completely pissed of their team drafted their replacement in the 1st round (with the obvious exception of teams that have players who don't want to come back).

Finally, who in the world thinks Cam Newton is a good QB anymore?! He's the ONLY guy being replaced by a 1st round pick on your list. Otherwise your list includes one second round pick and then 3rd round or later. There is kind of a huge difference between drafting a QB in the 3rd vs trading up in the 1st.
 

gopkrs

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There is kind of a huge difference between drafting a QB in the 3rd vs trading up in the 1st.
A lot of people have made a big deal of the trading up part. I don't see it. It isn't like they went way up to the top 5. They gave up a 4th (almost a 5th I think) to move up 5 places to get the guy they thought would not be there at their turn. As it is turning out, it was maybe a really good move.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I'm using the 1st round parameter because that's what happened in Green Bay. Using 2nd and 3rd round picks isn't what Green Bay did. Also, :laugh::laugh::laugh: at Eli Manning being an "elite QB" when they drafted Jones. You can keep being cozy in your belief that using 1st round picks is okay for a team when they have a great QB but it's just not true and I would expect pretty much every top-10 QB in the NFL to be completely pissed of their team drafted their replacement in the 1st round (with the obvious exception of teams that have players who don't want to come back).

Finally, who in the world thinks Cam Newton is a good QB anymore?! He's the ONLY guy being replaced by a 1st round pick on your list. Otherwise your list includes one second round pick and then 3rd round or later. There is kind of a huge difference between drafting a QB in the 3rd vs trading up in the 1st.
As you said, the Packers did it one time before and it worked out well, no? So what makes you think it won't again? Seems like Rodgers is now showing us some of the reasons it might have been important for Gute to draft Love when he did. Imagine just having Bortles and Boyle right now.

Still amazes me people want to debate the Love pick, especially given he hasn't even shown us what he does or doesn't have. Also, let's not bother with pointing out all the other wasted high draft picks over the years by the Packers and 31 other teams. If I'm a GM and I see a high value target on my board free falling in the Draft to a place I didn't expect, I'm probably doing whatever I can to grab him, especially when the player he will be backing up is 36 years old.
 

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I wonder what Rodgers would be thinking if he was sitting the season out at home, and Love comes in and plays lights out? Third straight HOF QB, baby!
 
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I wonder what Rodgers would be thinking if he was sitting the season out at home, and Love comes in and plays lights out? Third straight HOF QB, baby!
Interesting but I was thinking that same thing. I know Jordan is in a boom or bust kinda range. But if he’s boom and the GBP get 4-5 early draft selections and see their checkbook open up again? Watch out.


The other thing is our GM will likely know what we have with Jordan by the end of the 2022 season at the latest. He’ll get showcased by then IMO. If they don’t feel confident in him moving forward? We’d likely have 2 day 1 selections and be picking earlier (Top15) with at least 1 of those. That means it’s likely we’d have the draft power to trade our natural day 1 selection and our 2 acquired selections to get into the top 3 overall area. We’d still likely have all our natural draft selections in 2023 plus a top 3 overall to play at QB in place as our day 1 selection (Used natural draft placing #12 overall + #25 #57 (acquired)) = #3 overall

That #3 overall gets us into a pretty nice neighborhood in the 2023 draft.
 
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G0P4ckG0

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Interesting but I was thinking that same thing. I know Jordan is in a boom or bust kinda range. But if he’s boom and the GBP get 4-5 early draft selections and see their checkbook open up again? Watch out.
Yep! THIS is what the Rodgers-or-Die fans cannot understand. It is not likely but it is absolutely possible especially if MLF's scheme continues to evolve & improve. You don't even need an average QB if your running game, defense, and special teams are all top-10. But combine that with a top-10 or top-5 QB and that is a perfect recipe for championships.

I fully believe all Love has to do is be a 15th place QB for this team to be consistent Super Bowl contenders for the next 10 years (assuming Rodgers is traded)
 

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I think we’re saying the same thing in different ways.
You’re looking at total length of contract and I’m talking guaranteed. Which could literally end on the same season.
You can sign him to a 5 year deal (extend him 2 seasons whatever) with 3 years fully guaranteed and it’s still the 3 year deal I mentioned.

Rodgers corner is smart enough to connect the monetary dots to calculate the “contract out”.
For example. No way does GB sign Rodgers to a 5 year contract 100% guaranteed. Unless he agrees to play for like $25mil annual etc.. or something crazy low, which likely ain’t happening). Plus anything longer than 5 years is nearly $$ suicidal due to his age.

What I’m trying to say is nothing matters except guaranteed money. He can do the money backwards to calculate probable playing term. He’s smart, he’s already eluded to the fact he understands this.. or he wouldn’t be flipping off the handle just before the draft happened in his final season in GB :laugh:

Yeah I totally agree, the 2 added years are just to spread the salary cap hit out. From what I've heard it's gonna end up being 120 m total not new money, guranteed over next 3 seasons so 40m per year. 2nd to Mahomes 45 m annually
 

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Yep! THIS is what the Rodgers-or-Die fans cannot understand. It is not likely but it is absolutely possible especially if MLF's scheme continues to evolve & improve. You don't even need an average QB if your running game, defense, and special teams are all top-10. But combine that with a top-10 or top-5 QB and that is a perfect recipe for championships.

I fully believe all Love has to do is be a 15th place QB for this team to be consistent Super Bowl contenders for the next 10 years (assuming Rodgers is traded)

Everybody understands this, I loved Love on tape in college. His potential to be great is obvious. Still Rodgers is the know commodity in the NFL, Love could be bad, he could be good, he could etc point being there'skre variables involved with Love. The chances he is great are far less than the chances Rodgers wins a superbowl over the next 3 seasons in GB.... assuming Rodgers gets his 120 million guranteed

At which point the Packers could still trade him and move on to Jordan Love in what would be his his year 25 and 5th year option season for I think around 13 million which is very cheap for a staring QB
 
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Most common mistake made by fans in Football = Assuming that there is a magical winning formula to follow to win Super Bowls

You said that just as I spent 10 minutes typing the winning formula!

No. Serous it though. I had went back in 2014 through each SB winner and averaged the scoring rankings for O+D (one big factor)
They were unbelievably close over 50 years average. #7 scoring D
#8 scoring O.
Obviously it varied but I thought it was telling.

PS. I did not rank ST because it got time extensive, but I think that should factor in some minor way.
 

rmontro

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It is not likely but it is absolutely possible especially if MLF's scheme continues to evolve & improve.
If MLF isn't an illusion (and I don't believe he is), they could have a very good offense with a game manager type quarterback. And Love at least has the potential to be more than that.
 

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If MLF isn't an illusion (and I don't believe he is), they could have a very good offense with a game manager type quarterback. And Love at least has the potential to be more than that.
And the kicker is...when MLF was first hired he stated that he wanted to evolve the offense into a run-heavy style with dink-and-dunk type of passing similar to a Wisconsin Badgers offense. Would Love not be a perfect QB for such an offense?
 

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And the kicker is...when MLF was first hired he stated that he wanted to evolve the offense into a run-heavy style with dink-and-dunk type of passing similar to a Wisconsin Badgers offense. Would Love not be a perfect QB for such an offense?
Interesting. Yeah you don't need a guy throwing 50 TDs to be successful in that system. I'd love for GB to use any cap going to Rodgers to develop an elite D. Might take a year or two, but IMO that's the fastest way to the nest Lombardi trophy.
 

rmontro

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And the kicker is...when MLF was first hired he stated that he wanted to evolve the offense into a run-heavy style with dink-and-dunk type of passing similar to a Wisconsin Badgers offense.
I like the idea of a move the chains type of offense in GB. Keep the ball, tire out the other team's defense. Sometimes you need to stretch the field. But sometimes when Rodgers has thrown in downfield, I've gotten the impression he just got impatient. Just sometimes.
 

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