Its not the age its the talent
Packers-Vikings: 2010. I hate the Vikings
- Thread starter FrankRizzo
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Its not the age its the talent
PackersRS
Cheesehead
Well, our secondary is also banged up and old, so...
Difference is, we still got Woodson, Williams and Collins healthy and playing well... You got... Madieu Williams?
(You did get a young CB with the 1st pick, though I didn't see anything in him that made me like him...)
3irty1
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:shock: ummmmmm... RS... where is HARRIS?!! How could you forget HARRIS?! He's still got 4 more years.
Pat4DaPack
Cheesehead
ewwww the Vikings.
supermancc0386
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I think that the Pack can take the division regardless of the other teams. What I don't like is how the Lions and Bears are sneaking up on the Packers and Vikings. No divisional game this year will be easy. Granted the Lions and Bears are still at least a year or two out from meshing and making a good push for the division, but that doesn't mean they can't ruin the Vikings or Packers run at the playoffs. They could very well hand either team a crucial loss that keeps them from a wildcard spot.
Another thing is that I'm really not sure Favre returns to the Vikings this year. There is so much confidence here in Minneapolis that he'll be back, but I just really think he's done. The last two times he's "retired" he's made a big deal out of it. This year, he's keeping too quiet. It leaked out that he told someone he is 100% sure he's never putting the pads on again. He's also now a grandpa. While that may not affect him physically, I think it affects him mentally and how connected he feels to the team. He now has one less thing in common with all of his teammates. He's going to sit back and think about being a grandpa and playing a kids game. Whether he admits it or not, it's in his mind.
Another thing is that I'm really not sure Favre returns to the Vikings this year. There is so much confidence here in Minneapolis that he'll be back, but I just really think he's done. The last two times he's "retired" he's made a big deal out of it. This year, he's keeping too quiet. It leaked out that he told someone he is 100% sure he's never putting the pads on again. He's also now a grandpa. While that may not affect him physically, I think it affects him mentally and how connected he feels to the team. He now has one less thing in common with all of his teammates. He's going to sit back and think about being a grandpa and playing a kids game. Whether he admits it or not, it's in his mind.
PackersRS
Cheesehead
Harris fits the banged up and old mold.
Bigby fits the banged up mold.
I listed the guys that always play and play well.
3irty1
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Harris will be back.
Raptorman
Vikings fan since 1966.
Your right, over the last 3 years, the Packers led in every catagory in pass defense except two. Less yards, lower completion percentage, lower passer rating, lower first down percentage, more interceptions. Every catagory except two. And the two the Vikings lead in. Touchdowns given up and touchdowns per attempt.
Packers TD's given up. 74. 1 TD given up for every 21.5 attempts
Vikings: TD's given up. 63. 1 TD given up for every 27.2 attempts.
Good thing the Packers DB's are so much better.
SpartaChris
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While I won't argue the facts, there is a variable not taken into consideration- Injuries. We had the misfortune of being injury plagued at one position last season, which happened to be in our secondary. I agree that facts are facts, but it would be interesting to consider the stats had we not lost three of our better cornerbacks for the season.
PackersRS
Cheesehead
Glad you agree with us, that our DBs are better... :happy0005:
One can make a serious case about your pass rush, but not about your secondary...
Raptorman
Vikings fan since 1966.
That's why I used the combined stats for the past 3 years. Takes that nagging injury thing out. And if you remember, the Vikings have had some injuries in that area as well. Williams was injured on 08, Winfield in 07 and 09. But since you asked for it. I can't do "what if a player wasn't injured", my crystal ball is in the shop being worked on. But for the last 3 years.
Packers
07: 23 TD's 1 td per 23.2 attempts, 36 sacks
08: 22 TD's 1 td per 23.5 attempts, 27 sacks
09: 29 TD's 1 td per 18.6 attempts, 37 sacks
Vikings
07: 22 TD's 1 td per 29.4 attempts, 38 sacks
08: 15 TD's 1 td per 35.3 attempts, 45 sacks
09: 26 TD's 1 td per 20.6 attempts, 48 sacks.
I added sacks because I believe the pressure a QB is getting has an impact on the DB and how they do their jobs. I definitely think the injuries hurt the Packers last year. As well I think the injury to Winfield hurt MN. It will be interesting to see how the teams do this year. If I get the time I will try to do a sheet that shows how they did after key players were injured last year. While not an exact science it is interesting to look at.
PackersRS
Cheesehead
Why TDs and tds per attempt? Why not ints? Why not QB rating???
TheGiftedApe
TheGiftedApe
I still think this is gonna be Al Harris and Antoine Winfield's last years in the NFC north, so Both our secondaries need New Blood. Only difference between our DB's is that we have Charles woodson, And Nick collins as the other 2 guys, You have Lito Sheppard and Madieu Williams........So our next Db's are Pro-Bowlers and one is a Defensive MVP guy, you have some joker and a former bengal...
Raptorman
Vikings fan since 1966.
Sheppard was brought in to be a back up. But I'm sure Woodson will give the Packers 10 more years of fine playing. And of course we all know Collins is head and shoulders better than Williams because, well because he's a Packer. And Griffin, well he just plain sucks in his 5th year, and of course he could not possibly get better because, well because he's a Viking, and we all know Viking players don't learn or get better the more they play.
Just how do you know they are going to be pro-bowlers? Is the fix in?
Raptorman
Vikings fan since 1966.
Well how do you measure the success of a QB? By his ability to score or by the yards he throw? If you want to measure the ability strictly on stats that mean nothing great. The one stat that counts in game is those that count scores. What good does 30 Int's do if the team gives up 45 TD's a year. Would it not be better to give up 30 tds and only have 5 ints? It's all relative in how you want to look at it. Are the rest to be ignored? No. but when you talk about a secondary being good what are you talking about. The ability to stop the pass, which the Packers are good at, or the ability to stop the td pass? Which the Vikings seem to do better than the Packers.
Look, I'm not saying the Packers DB are bad or the Vikings are better. I actually view them as being on about he same level. They play different types of coverage options and I think that shows in the stats. How else do you explain the fact that the Packers beat the Vikings in every category over the last 3 years except in td's given up and td's given up per attempt? And even then, most of the other stats, broken down to a per attempt level, are almost identical.
Both teams have suffered injuries in the DB and linebacker corps the past 3 years. When MN lost Henderson it was a huge blow to them. If you look at the stats of the games before he went down and after you can see how much he meant to that defence. The same with Green Bay and Harris. Like I said, it's all relative. To assume one is head and shoulders above the others is foolish.
TheGiftedApe
TheGiftedApe
i was referring to last year's performance, I'm pretty sure none of these guys lito sheppard and madieu williams, or cedric griffen for that matter made the pro-bowl.
OP
OP
FrankRizzo
Cheesehead
That's good stuff Raptorhorn, and I agree with your point: pass rush IS the biggest key in stopping good QB's. That's undeniable.
Injuriess certainly hurt the Packers last year, but they weren't THAT bad.
We had Woodson and Collins ALL year, and they are our best 2 DB's. A lot of teams had worse than that with their key DB's getting hurt.
The Saints had to bring back Mike McKenzie AND Chris McCallister off the street. Polamalu and Ed Reed both missed many games.
PackersRS
Cheesehead
We lost our starting CB (Harris), his backup (Lee), and the backup of his backup (Blackmon). And our starting S Bigby) was hurt most of the season. How isn't that so bad??? We should've had more S depth, but there were 6 guys ahead of Bush in the depth chart, and yet he played (Woodson, Harris, Lee, Blackmon, Underwood, Bell). We had our #7 CB playing...
I'm not putting it all on injuries, but they were a MAJOR reason our secondary sucked. Capers didn't prepare them to play, his D is too much individualized, when he had to pull Woodson from his "all-purpose" role and assign him to the best receiver, we hurt. The backups weren't prepared for that D (Capers fault, but it was his first season), and that killed us.
JBlood
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If more pressure isn't put on Favre, he'll carve us up again regardless of who's playing in the secondary. He should be on his back every pass play, and I'll take a few unnecessary roughness penalties as a result. We can't let the SOB beat us again.
OP
OP
FrankRizzo
Cheesehead
I LOVE the way you think there Blood.
In fact, I want to bring back the guy, I think Charles Martin? who is the one who in about 1986 bodyslammed Bears QB Jim McMahon. It's time we threw that f***** c***s***er down like a rag doll and made him fear for his life out there.
That could make Jarrett Bush look like Charles Woodson back there in the DB.
gbforever
Cheesehead
Don't worry about pressure on Favre Jblood, i wouldn't want to be in Favre's shoes this season if he does play. Everyone saw how well it worked in the Saints favor when they were tossing Favre around like a rag doll. All other teams will take note of that and concentrate on Brett's biggest weakness. Favre will be on IR by week 4.
:viksux:
:viksux:
I hate Favre but its going to take something epic to put him on the IR. He deserves alot of credit for being one tough SOB
OP
OP
FrankRizzo
Cheesehead
Yes he does. His body is built more durable than any other QB ever, for sure.
That said, he does feel pain, and he does fear pain. He fears pain more than ever at his old age too. That's a big reason, one of many, that I wanted Jerry Hughes. Hughes smells QBs and attacks like a shark smells blood! I don't know if Tim Knicky or my main man Frank Zombo can be as ferocious. Maybe Brad Jones blows Favray up though!
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