I am so pissed off at Ted Thompson...

[Deleted member 6794]

IMO, he was simply signed as a replacement to Micah Hyde.

At least House is better suited to play on the outside than Hyde though.

 

[Dantés]

That's because Gilmore has partly performed at an elite level during his time in the NFL while Randall and Rollins have struggled mightily without a veteran #1 cornerback on the field, even during their respectable rookie season.

Yes, I understand why people wanted Gilmore. I'm all set there.

But the argument regarding rookie corners and development that I see used for why we needed Gilmore is forgotten or ignored when it comes to Randall and Rollins, two high draft picks entering their 3rd seasons who struggled with injuries a year ago but were solid when healthy as rookies.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Yes, I understand why people wanted Gilmore. I'm all set there.

But the argument regarding rookie corners and development that I see used for why we needed Gilmore is forgotten or ignored when it comes to Randall and Rollins, two high draft picks entering their 3rd seasons who struggled with injuries a year ago but were solid when healthy as rookies.

Unfortunately I don't have any confidence either Randall or Rollins will develop in an elite cornerback anytime soon. I would love to be proven wrong but relying on it for the 2017 season isn't a smart way to conduct business.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Yes, I understand why people wanted Gilmore. I'm all set there.

But the argument regarding rookie corners and development that I see used for why we needed Gilmore is forgotten or ignored when it comes to Randall and Rollins, two high draft picks entering their 3rd seasons who struggled with injuries a year ago but were solid when healthy as rookies.

Solid as rookies while playing with Shields and the expectations placed on rookies. I think we would all be out of line worrying about the CB position if they just had a a few bad games, but once Shields went down, I really can't recall a game where I thought "hey, things are ok at CB, it was just a matter of time." So sure, Randall, Rollins and Gunther all have earned another year to prove themselves, but what has us most of us nervous is seeing the same thing we saw for most of 18 games last season from the exact same group of guys and being a few games into the season, when the options to improve it are far less and if you listen to some posters from last season, zero options available at that point.

I'm still holding out hope that TT has something planned, besides the draft, to get help at CB and not solely rely on subtracting Hyde, adding House and the other 3-6 guys who couldn't seem to get the job done over the entire 2016 season.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Solid as rookies while playing with Shields and the expectations placed on rookies. I think we would all be out of line worrying about the CB position if they just had a a few bad games, but once Shields went down, I really can't recall a game where I thought "hey, things are ok at CB, it was just a matter of time." So sure, Randall, Rollins and Gunther all have earned another year to prove themselves, but what has us most of us nervous is seeing the same thing we saw for most of 18 games last season from the exact same group of guys and being a few games into the season, when the options to improve it are far less and if you listen to some posters from last season, zero options available at that point.

I'm still holding out hope that TT has something planned, besides the draft, to get help at CB and not solely rely on subtracting Hyde, adding House and the other 3-6 guys who couldn't seem to get the job done over the entire 2016 season.

I don't know if we'll see improvement from Randall, Rollins, and Gunter this year or not, but I don't discount it as a possibility. After Adams slumped his sophomore season fans wanted to dump him too, but he was pretty solid last year. Hopefully, the young CB trio can make a similar leap.

I don't think there's a "savior" for our secondary that's going to be around at #29 - If we draft a corner there, he'll likely be someone who adds depth in his rookie season, the way Casey Hayward did. It takes a year or two to develop for most guys. An edge pass rusher, however, can contribute right away if he's the right guy, and that can help all the corners. One more week, and we'll find out what Ted has in mind.

 

[rmontro]

I don't think it was a matter of letting it get too thin, after all, the CB position looked pretty strong going into 2016 with Shields, Randall, Rollins and Gunther.

Out of all those guys, the only player with more than one season's experience was Shields, and he was one concussion away from ending his career (he had already had four or five by that time IIRC). Maybe CB was a perceived strength going into 2016, but that perception was a complete mirage, as we saw. That perception was formed because it had been a strength in the past, and we were just hoping the new guys would catch up. Whether it was because of injury or not, that didn't happen.

Corner is an important position in this pass happy league, I still say they should have paid Hayward. That should be consistent with Ted's philosophy, resign your own. I understand Ted likes to cheap out on certain positions, but CB shouldn't be one of them.

 

[Dantés]

Solid as rookies while playing with Shields and the expectations placed on rookies. I think we would all be out of line worrying about the CB position if they just had a a few bad games, but once Shields went down, I really can't recall a game where I thought "hey, things are ok at CB, it was just a matter of time." So sure, Randall, Rollins and Gunther all have earned another year to prove themselves, but what has us most of us nervous is seeing the same thing we saw for most of 18 games last season from the exact same group of guys and being a few games into the season, when the options to improve it are far less and if you listen to some posters from last season, zero options available at that point.

I'm still holding out hope that TT has something planned, besides the draft, to get help at CB and not solely rely on subtracting Hyde, adding House and the other 3-6 guys who couldn't seem to get the job done over the entire 2016 season.

We're just guessing here, but I don't believe they were ever really healthy last season. The way that Randall played specifically just seemed off compared to what we saw the year before. He was a lot more physical as a rookie.

But I totally understand why people wanted Gilmore. In no way am I saying that anyone on the roster or any rookie will help as much as he could have. I'm just pointing out that many who advocate for veterans because any rookie will need time to develop tend to ignore the potential for that improvement in our young corners.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Out of all those guys, the only player with more than one season's experience was Shields, and he was one concussion away from ending his career (he had already had four or five by that time IIRC). Maybe CB was a perceived strength going into 2016, but that perception was a complete mirage, as we saw. That perception was formed because it had been a strength in the past, and we were just hoping the new guys would catch up. Whether it was because of injury or not, that didn't happen.

Corner is an important position in this pass happy league, I still say they should have paid Hayward. That should be consistent with Ted's philosophy, resign your own. I understand Ted likes to cheap out on certain positions, but CB shouldn't be one of them.

While I agree with your analysis, it is mostly based on really good hindsight. At the time of Hayward not being signed, I don't think it was unrealistic to view the secondary as a pretty strong group and there was no reason to toss that kind of money at Hayward. We had just spent our #1 and #2 picks on guys that through one season looked like they were more than worthy of the picks, Shields while having a concussion history, wasn't really being viewed as "one more and he is done". But you are correct, the perception turned out to be a mirage, with no Plan B in site. One could view the WR group the same way before the 2015 season. Strong, deep and no reason to worry. Jordy went down and if it hadn't been for a Plan B (James Jones), the WR position would have been a lot worse in 2015 and at the end of the season, might have been viewed a lot like the CB position was last year, especially if Jordy was done.

If Sam Shields was coming back healthy, I don't think there would be this much concern. But he isn't and I think that a lot of us are concerned that nobody on the current roster is being viewed as being able to replace his abilities on the field, some of us expected that replacement would be found in the offseason.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

We're just guessing here, but I don't believe they were ever really healthy last season. The way that Randall played specifically just seemed off compared to what we saw the year before. He was a lot more physical as a rookie.

This is no doubt what Ted is banking on and it has a lot of people justifiably concerned IMO. I hope he proves us all wrong!

 

[brandon2348]

So yeah add that Randle and Rollins both need to "stay healthy" along with "significant improvement" in play. Like I posted awhile back you mine as well head down to the horse track and start boxing 60-1 winners. See where all this "hope" gets ya with that.

And it wasn't "all or nothing" on Gilmore. Yes, he was the main guy many wanted but there were others that were passed over. Thompson did NOTHING.

People need to "pump the breaks" on House. My hope for him is that he can help with bigger receivers but we're still talking about a guy that has never been a no.1 and that the Jacksonville Jaguars didn't want.

 

[Sky King]

I think Davon House is expected to be the guy to provide some stability to the cornerback group. Imo, it's why he was signed.

I like the signing myself. He's not exactly the same type of player as the guy some feel he replaced (Hyde) but he could be the better option of the two when it comes to playing on the outside.

 

[Dantés]

This is no doubt what Ted is banking on and it has a lot of people justifiably concerned IMO. I hope he proves us all wrong!

And I'm not saying he's right to bank on it so heavily.

I'm saying that it's funny to me that the same argument that's often used for why we needed Gilmore is negated when it comes to our own developing players. Just a funny inconsistency.

 

[Sky King]

At least House is better suited to play on the outside than Hyde though.

Hyde trailed the receivers from behind all too often and he did not have enough closing speed to adequately compensate against average or above speed. Hyde seemed to play his best facing the QB and jumping the occasional route, much like Jarret Bush played noticeably better when the play was out in front of him.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

And I'm not saying he's right to bank on it so heavily.

I'm saying that it's funny to me that the same argument that's often used for why we needed Gilmore is negated when it comes to our own developing players. Just a funny inconsistency.

While I agree, a player can improve or digress, you have to look at how much of either can be realistically expected and where that leaves you talentwise if it does or doesn't happen. A player like Gilmore may not fully live up to the huge contract he received, but chances are, him having an off day is a lot better than Randall was last year or even Randall slightly improved. Now if Randall makes a big jump in his development, he could probably play up to the level of an average Gilmore day, but do you want to bank on that....times Rollins + Gunther?

No doubt throwing big money at FA's guarantees you squat, but it does hedge your bet that you have probably improved the position. I don't think we got every dollar of value out of Peppers, but I still feel like he more than improved the position and the investment was worth it.

Also, don't forget, a player like Gilmore, who is only 26, can also improve.

 

[rmontro]

While I agree with your analysis, it is mostly based on really good hindsight.

For some reason, everyone says it is hindsight when someone criticizes the cornerback group last year. I didn't like it when Thompson let Hayward go, and I said so. I did feel pretty good about the CB group going into last year, until I realized how little experience there was there, and then I started to get nervous - and that was before the season started.

When Shields had his concussion, immediately there were fans on the internet talking about how many concussions he's had, and people very quickly started talking about how they hoped he wouldn't risk playing again, for his own good. Admittedly, I wasn't that familiar with Shield's concussion history, but obviously a lot of fans were. If the fans were aware of it, the people running the team must have been aware of it too. So as tragic as it was, no one should have been shocked at the idea that his career might get cut short.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

For some reason, everyone says it is hindsight when someone criticizes the cornerback group last year. I didn't like it when Thompson let Hayward go, and I said so. I did feel pretty good about the CB group going into last year, until I realized how little experience there was there, and then I started to get nervous - and that was before the season started.

When Shields had his concussion, immediately there were fans on the internet talking about how many concussions he's had, and people very quickly started talking about how they hoped he wouldn't risk playing again, for his own good. Admittedly, I wasn't that familiar with Shield's concussion history, but obviously a lot of fans were. If the fans were aware of it, the people running the team must have been aware of it too. So as tragic as it was, no one should have been shocked at the idea that his career might get cut short.

I don't think it's necessarily considered using hindsight to criticize the CB group last year, it's a fact, they stunk, no hindsight needed. What I was commenting on was using hindsight concerning not resigning Hayward. Now maybe you had a crystal ball, but I still don't think anyone saw what happened at the CB position coming until it unfolded.

Now if you want to use hindsight to criticize the Packers for standing pat and watching what unfolded at CB during the season, I think you have a better argument. By October, I think there were many of us, myself included, that as the season progressed saw what was happening and were very nervous about the CB position. At that time, the hope was for health and development or for TT to actually see what was transpiring and for him to try to make a move for a player not already on the roster. Instead, we ended the season with a converted UDFA WR in the lineup at CB and nobody could stop other teams from lightning us up.

So for me I don't think it's a bad thing to criticize the 2016 CB group and the moves that weren't made once that fact became obvious. But to say TT and everyone should have seen it coming and resigned Hayward 6 months before a very unpredicted collapse, is using unjustifiable hindsight IMO.

 

[PikeBadger]

So yeah add that Randle and Rollins both need to "stay healthy" along with "significant improvement" in play. Like I posted awhile back you mine as well head down to the horse track and start boxing 60-1 winners. See where all this "hope" gets ya with that.

And it wasn't "all or nothing" on Gilmore. Yes, he was the main guy many wanted but there were others that were passed over. Thompson did NOTHING.

People need to "pump the breaks" on House. My hope for him is that he can help with bigger receivers but we're still talking about a guy that has never been a no.1 and that the Jacksonville Jaguars didn't want.

Why didn't the Bills extend Gilmore back in 15 or 16 if he's a so called #1 CB? People need to maybe pump the brakes on all FA's.

 

[brandon2348]

Why didn't the Bills extend Gilmore back in 15 or 16 if he's a so called #1 CB? People need to maybe pump the brakes on all FA's.

If we still had a healthy Sam Shields I would agree. Once again the reality is we don't. If you believe the Packers are a legitimate Super Bowl contender as I do then they need to replace him with something better then what's on the current roster instead of hiding behind "player progression".

If there was ever a time for TT to overspend a bit or heaven forbid take a chance on a FA it was this offseason at corner. Even if they just would of signed Mo Claiborne on a 1 year cheaper deal I would feel much better about things. For me it didn't need to be an all out move on Gilmore even though that would of been nice.

 

[Dantés]

While I agree, a player can improve or digress, you have to look at how much of either can be realistically expected and where that leaves you talentwise if it does or doesn't happen. A player like Gilmore may not fully live up to the huge contract he received, but chances are, him having an off day is a lot better than Randall was last year or even Randall slightly improved. Now if Randall makes a big jump in his development, he could probably play up to the level of an average Gilmore day, but do you want to bank on that....times Rollins + Gunther?

No doubt throwing big money at FA's guarantees you squat, but it does hedge your bet that you have probably improved the position. I don't think we got every dollar of value out of Peppers, but I still feel like he more than improved the position and the investment was worth it.

Also, don't forget, a player like Gilmore, who is only 26, can also improve.

There are a couple of separate issues being conflated here (through no fault of yours).

1. The Packers would have been better off if they could have signed a player of Gilmore's stature because it's extremely unlikely that anyone on the roster currently will be as good as he has the potential of being. I agree with this.

2. The Packers ought to have signed Gilmore because rookies take time to develop. This is argued by some who seem to virtually write off the potential of Randall and Rollins to continue to develop. This is the inconsistency that I am pointing out.

I think it's fair to say that TT could or should have done more at CB to "hedge" as you put it. I don't particularly hate what he's done, but I understand why others are dissatisfied. However, I do wonder why some look at Randall and Rollins and decide they know what they are at this point. Everyone seems very accepting of the idea that corners take time to develop into good players until it comes to our own.

My best guess for this season is that Randall and House are going to have first shots at the starting roles, with Rollins competing with a highly drafted rookie and others for the nickel spot. If another veteran like McCourty was signed, that would mix up the competition at the top.

By no means do I expect that situation to provide lock down coverage. However, I do see how healthier, more experienced players and reasonable veterans like House could represent an upgrade over guys like Demetri Goodson, Ladarius Gunter, or Randall/Rollins playing at less than 100%.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Why didn't the Bills extend Gilmore back in 15 or 16 if he's a so called #1 CB? People need to maybe pump the brakes on all FA's.

Same reason we didn't extend Perry in 2015 to more than just one season? Unsure of him, Gilmore missed the last month of the 2015 season.

At some point a team has to decide to go all in on a player like Perry or Gilmore. The Packers did on Perry and the Patriots did on Gilmore. We can only wait and see how it turns out for both teams.

 

[Mondio]

Why didn't the Bills extend Gilmore back in 15 or 16 if he's a so called #1 CB? People need to maybe pump the brakes on all FA's.

we're going to find out I guess. I know for me, I don't watch the bills, i doubt anybody does at least not many here. The only reason I put him on my list of potentials is a good team that plays him twice a year saw fit to sign him to a pretty good contract. I respect the decisions they have made, same as I do with Green Bay, so if they saw something, i'm not going to argue against it.

that said, i don't think we're dead in the water because we didn't get him. house is on a talent level as good as most of the rest that were and most still are available. Bouye I think was a product of everything in front of him. Better? than what we had last year, sure. but i think those same guys will be better than last year too and they won't cost a FA contract.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I am not one that has written off Randall, Rollins or even Gunther. But I think after last season, it could be construed as having too much faith in yourself (TT) being right on 2/3 guys that will now have to play key roles in the defense. I think TT would have been setting them all up to have more success had he found a #1 CB to take a little bit of the heat off of the "understudies". I'm ready, willing and able to eat that big plate of crow if nothing changes between now and September and the Packers secondary is vastly (top 15) improved.

 

[PikeBadger]

If we still had a healthy Sam Shields I would agree. Once again the reality is we don't. If you believe the Packers are a legitimate Super Bowl contender as I do then they need to replace him with something better then what's on the current roster instead of hiding behind "player progression".

If there was ever a time for TT to overspend a bit or heaven forbid take a chance on a FA it was this offseason at corner. Even if they just would of signed Mo Claiborne on a 1 year cheaper deal I would feel much better about things. For me it didn't need to be an all out move on Gilmore even though that would of been nice.

What do you think it would have taken to convince Gilmore to come to Green Bay instead of New England?

 

[PikeBadger]

we're going to find out I guess. I know for me, I don't watch the bills, i doubt anybody does at least not many here. The only reason I put him on my list of potentials is a good team that plays him twice a year saw fit to sign him to a pretty good contract. I respect the decisions they have made, same as I do with Green Bay, so if they saw something, i'm not going to argue against it.

that said, i don't think we're dead in the water because we didn't get him. house is on a talent level as good as most of the rest that were and most still are available. Bouye I think was a product of everything in front of him. Better? than what we had last year, sure. but i think those same guys will be better than last year too and they won't cost a FA contract.

HardRightEdge is a Buffalo guy. He's been known to proclaim their virtues when the Bills were the flavor of the month.

 

[brandon2348]

What do you think it would have taken to convince Gilmore to come to Green Bay instead of New England?

Not sure but Gilmore signed so fast out of the gate it makes me think it never would of happened with us as Thompson doesn't seem capable of operating at that speed. BB obviously had Gilmore targeted where TT is more of a wait around and try to get a "good deal" type which is fine but not if your gonna go "all in" on a guy like Gilmore.