7thFloorRA
Cheesehead
The rock pounder was in warm ups on the sideline!!! It is going to be glorious when he plays during the regular season in that same situation.why throw twice in that short of yardage, pound the rock.
The rock pounder was in warm ups on the sideline!!! It is going to be glorious when he plays during the regular season in that same situation.why throw twice in that short of yardage, pound the rock.
The rock pounder was in warm ups on the sideline!!! It is going to be glorious when he plays during the regular season in that same situation.
I wasnt going to read all three pages of this thread, but I do have a question for those that saw the game since I only got about 1 min. of highlights from ESPN. After James Jones caught that 50+ yard long ball and was close to the AZ endzone, how the hell did we not score? Or at the least hit a FG. Was there a turn over?
And before anyone shoots me, I know it is the pre-season and the bugs are getting worked out, but damn....we laid a goose egg against AZ and couldn't even put up a single point. SF has to be licking their chops right about know.
Here's the thing. I know what I think a pressure is and I can count, so I could come up with a number. As do you. But that doesn't mean our counts will be similar. Look at the refs. They're schooled in what to look for, they're given tape to study of what is and is not an infraction, and many have been in the pros for many years. Yet there are considerable inconsistencies to the extent that teams scout officiating crews for tendencies. If the refs can't agree on what's what in their subjective evaluations, why assume anonymous black box purveyors are better?
Justice Stewart famously said about ***********, "I know it when I see it". It took some decades, but the absurdity of that statement is now acknowledged in law.
One never "knows it when they see it", whatever "it" might be, just because they say so.
We've had this discussion before. I've acknowledged that these aren't perfect stats, that the definition of a "pressure" or a "hurry" may vary between services or that an evaluator's judgment in awarding these on some plays might differ from my own.
This seems to alarm you while I simply take this into account when considering pressures in a vacuum: in my mind, player A's 118 pressures do not definitively make him a better pass rusher than player B, with 112 pressures. But they're both probably more disruptive than player C who's listed with 87 pressures.
You're free to proselytize on this as much as you like as I'm not really interested in defending PFF's product. As I've said before, I don't think the imprecision that accompanies these stats renders them useless nor do I think evaluating pressures with an eye on the outcome corrects many of the flaws you seem fixated on (imprecision, subjective quality).
P.S. Justice Stewart's line about *********** is not acknowledged as an absurdity in law (I should know). It's widely understood as a frank acknowledgment that some things escape precise definition.
Several posters have noted that PFF counts this or that in creating their stats. Can somebody provide a link to their guidelines for subjective stats? Or any one stat? Piecemeal responses to piecemeal questions 140 bytes at a time off of twitter is only marginally helpful.
No holes.Thanks for that link.....wow, what happened to Starks being the "beast" in training camp? His line stats are not-so-impressive in my book....he ran for crap.
Thanks for that link.....wow, what happened to Starks being the "beast" in training camp? His line stats are not-so-impressive in my book....he ran for crap.
What's a "hurry"? How do you know the QB in uncomfortable sliding to his left? Just playing quarterback might be one pesky uncomfortability after another for some quarterbacks, beginning with sighting a J.J. Watt on the other side of the line to not recognizing a defensive package pre-snap. Rodgers on the other hand, with his stats out of the pocket, seems to savor the opportunity to throw the ball. Others savor the opportunity to run.
And if you "hurry" Brady or Brees causing him to step up in the pocket, if you're not collapsing the front of the packet they will eat your lunch all day.
I find the "hurry" to be entirely too subjective in your terms. A "hurry" should have an adverse result, otherwise it's worthless. Sacks are measurable, hits are evident. The "hurry" strikes me as perhaps a junk stat without precise clarification. As you can see, these kinds of questions cannot be asked or answered in 140 bytes.
By the way, do you have a link to their definitions and instructional guidelines?
Ok, hurries are pretty cut and dry; if the defensive player forces the quarterback to hurry, then it's a hurry.
Do they really credit guys with 100 or more pressures in a season? I find that highly suspect in that it is a low bar. If that is the case, it would explain why Raji gets a decent pass rush grade...he creates minor disturbances without actually getting home.
I agree that subjective judgements are an inevitable requirement of human existance. My objection is to opaque black box stat-ification of the subjective realm...for about the tenth time...with a particular emphasis on the non-transparent aspects of the process.
PS: What Steward thought was *********** in his eye (or more rightly the eyes of local authorities or juries in his day) looks pretty tame in today's world. Sensible prosecutors don't bring local norm cases any more...they work off of objective criteria established by legislatures...is there a child involved, is it a snuff film, etc. The absurdity of which I spoke is the idea that "I know it when I see it" can preempt First Amendment rights.
No stat is “perfect” even for a specified purpose. For example all sacks aren’t “equal” in evaluating the sacker. (caution: exaggeration approaching) Compare the value of one sack which occurred 6 seconds after the snap while the QB stood statue-like in the pocket and only after the blocker slipped and fell, versus another which occurred in less than three seconds after beating a double team. Yet each defender gets credit for one sack. Hell, even the most “objective” stat – the score – doesn’t always tell the story – see the “Fail Mary” game last season.
So what about “pressures”? Of the three elements stated by PFF, sacks and hits – although not perfect are the least subjective of the three. In each case we know at least the defender had contact with the QB before the whistle blew. “Hurries” is the most nebulous but I believe it’s reasonable to assume that at the very least the defender defeated the blocker (or the blocker fell down) or drove him back towards the QB before the ball was thrown. Certainly a defender controlled by a blocker at the LOS wouldn’t get credit for a hurry.
An analogy: IMO baseball is more “stat centric” than football but consider another exaggerated example regarding the batting average stat: Player one hits the ball incredibly ******* 10 consecutive trips to the plate, all but one is directly hit to an outfielder. Player two in 10 trips to the plate squibs two mishits just beyond an infielders reach and then closes his eyes, swings as hard as he can and barely hits the ball which dribbles bunt-like in front of the third baseman as the batter reaches first base. Which is the better hitter? The answer to this statistical anomaly is over the course of a 162-game season, it’ll even out and player one will emerge with the better batting average. In the same way while the value of each play characterized as a sack, hit, or hurry may be questioned, over the course of a season the imperfect stat of pressures will have some value in evaluating defenders.
IMO the best stats are those compiled by the individual teams because only they know with precision the responsibility of each of their players on every play. But even those stats have at least two problems: They are compiled by imperfect individuals using their own judgment. And worse, they aren’t available to us. But we can see the outcome of teams’ evaluations based partially on their in-house stats. For example, many of us were surprised with the deal Brad Jones received and with Bishop’s release. I believe it was PFF which assigned what many Packers fans saw as a surprisingly high grade to Jones’2012 performance. If it was PFF, I think it is fair to say their evaluation of Jones more closely matched that of the Packers than the evaluations of most Packers fans.
Of course anyone is free to ignore a stat like hurries and/or ignore stats compiled by a certain source. I see the stats published by PFF as one tool among many in evaluating players even though I don’t subscribe to their site or know their guidelines for volunteers.
You really want to take the ball out of AR's hands and give it to James Starks? IMO just running it on 4th was a big improvement.I know, but from the description that I got, 1st down was a run to the 2 yard line, I would have not waited until 4th down to run again......sounds like the timing on passing issues is off more than slightly. Am I seeing the start of the 2012 season all over again? Hope not. They have a ton of work to do.
I wasnt going to read all three pages of this thread, but I do have a question for those that saw the game since I only got about 1 min. of highlights from ESPN. After James Jones caught that 50+ yard long ball and was close to the AZ endzone, how the hell did we not score? Or at the least hit a FG. Was there a turn over?
And before anyone shoots me, I know it is the pre-season and the bugs are getting worked out, but damn....we laid a goose egg against AZ and couldn't even put up a single point. SF has to be licking their chops right about know.
It's pre-season...pre...season. It has almost zero correlation to regular season performance.
We had the #1 offense in for 1 drive where they easily drove down inside the 5 and then couldn't convert a 4th down. After that, it was scrubs.
This dialogue takes place every year.
You really want to take the ball out of AR's hands and give it to James Starks? IMO just running it on 4th was a big improvement.
Here's some additional PFF facts:
https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/get-involved/
I've cited this information and finally got around to finding the link.
And to think I was challenged with such certainty on these facts. This should give one pause.
I'm also skeptical of the earlier contention that PFF grades a DB negatively for getting burned but saved by an overthrow. Indications are it is graded 0.0.
we have more people to run than just starks......