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Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by warhawk, Aug 15, 2006.

  1. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    to judge from this one game.

    Many ready to believe a rerun of last year is inevitable.

    Some things you might want to consider at this point.

    First of all I will say the "O" line was tentative, thought to much, and was hesitant.

    Secondly, I will say that the front seven of the Chargers is a talented group.

    What I would like to add is that a contributing factor to the offensive lines play was an extremely aggressive posture on the part of the Chargers in this game.

    I did not see any other pre season game where a team went after the QB and blitzed as often as the Chargers in this game. I would say this was against the norm where teams generally stay with generic formations in the early pre season so they can use these games as a tool to evaluate players.

    I would also say that as a result the offensive line was even more tentative and at times caught off guard.

    Understandable. Teams don't prepare for their opponents in the pre season like they do during the regular season.

    They don't spend time on this because there is a lot that must be accomplished in the time they have before the season starts. The luxury of time to watch film, game plan, and practice against what an upcoming team in pre-season will run does not exist.

    That's why teams stay with mostly basic stuff until maybe the last game of pre-season when they want to see how certain things work.

    I am not exactly sure what the Chargers got out of this other than finding out a team that wasn't expecting nearly the aggressive strategy of blitzing the QB to death didn't handle it well.

    Would they have been better off seeing if their LB's were getting in the right position on pass plays, watching the corners to see if their technique was right and if the saftey got over in time to help when they should have?

    Hard to tell when you've got LB's chasing the QB all over the field.

    So lessons were learned. No, we weren't ready for what we will see once the regular season starts. I doubt MM really expects them to be that far along at this point.

    He's using this whipping as a way to send a message of how much further they need to get and how much work needs to be done which is a good thing.
    But he also knows these guys aren't nearly as bad as they were made to look in this one game either.

    My guess is he may take a peak at Atlanta and what they do so in the event they come in throwing the dog, kitchen sink, and the coaches sister after Favre, they will fare better this time.
     
  2. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Be careful...logic is strictly frowned upon by some. One pre-season game and the sky is falling. I have no idea how this is going to shake out, but I am excited nonetheless to watch this team grow and hopefully approach respectability this year.
     
  3. umair

    umair Cheesehead

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    i agree with warhawk that you cant judge from one game that the packers season is over. I guess they just arnt used to seeing the packers lose. im sure if the packers do good against Atlanta they will stop jumping to conclusions
     
  4. krd005

    krd005 Cheesehead

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    I agree boys...........but what scares me even more is the fact that we play the Bears and Lions twice and they have some talent on the front 7. Some might say better than SD so I must admit I am worried.

    I might also add that we should be worried because if you think they are going to improve that much over the course of a season I think we are not being realistic. Some improvement maybe....which brings them to just below average instead of very poor which they seem to be now.

    I hope the number 3 QB is getting some reps!!!
     
  5. pyledriver80

    pyledriver80 Cheesehead

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    Amen to that
     
  6. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    And I believe that they will spend the weeks prior to to those games focusing excusively on what those teams will do and will be PREPARED for it. A world of difference there when it comes to executing.

    I think we will see enough improvement before pre seasons over to know we don't have as far to go as this first game made it appear.
     
  7. calicheesehead

    calicheesehead Cheesehead

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    If this rings true then we should see much improvement as our OL has now experienced the most aggressive D in preseason currently. However the similarities between last year's OL beginnings and this years are being mirrored. Not to say the sky's falling but rather to voice concern over the latest showing. I sure hope this OL takes root. As we saw vs the Chargers, if we're 2-12 or 3-15, a lighter more mobile built OL, selected for zone blocking skills, do not pass protect like the big ol boys. Hence our O may get into more trouble. The bottom line is the zone block has to work and these guys need to get it figured out ASAP because if we need to air it out all day we do not have the OL to pass-protect.
     
  8. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    Here's some ligic for you:

    I posted my opinion that the o-line is in serious trouble based on their performance last season, the fact that we are using two rookies as guards, a new coach, a new blocking scheme and the fact that all of this amounted to an abysmal showing on the field in the first game I watched.

    You seem to be basing your opinion on either wishful thinking or unwavering optimism. At this point I am not sure which.

    Now, would you like to reconsider who is being illogical? Or perhaps you might want to elaborate on what you have seen to inspire such hope that the rest of us have obviously missed?

    BTW: Tromadz was the one who coined the phrase "the sky is falling". I have been saying (since last season, no less) that the o-line was in serious disarray and little has been done about it. Quit shoving Trom's opinion down everyone else's throats. Most of us have been stating the same thing long before the preseason started, and to date have seen nothing that would change that opinion.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  9. porky88

    porky88 Cheesehead

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    The Lions do not have a better front 7 than San Diego. Chicago does though. I wouldn't worry about the Lions doing what San Diego did. They're front 7 is decent but like the Packers very inexperience.

    Chicago on the other hand. Well if it doesn't get better, Favre probably won't finish that game. Tommie Harris is going to swallow Moll or Colledge alive that game.
     
  10. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    yikes! i hate to tell you this, anubis but you're giving trom WAY too much credit. i was sickened by the response alot of people had to one friggin pre-season game. not because i view the pack thru green & gold glasses but because i honestly didn't expect a whole lot from them this pre-season. it's a young team with what i consider to be a not so terrific O-line. we've got one really good WR in driver, a RB in green that to say the least has struggled, & one AWESOME (albeit old) QB - that's ALOT to overcome in one season. i'd guess we're in for a tough several seasons to come - at least 2 if not 4.
     
  11. eastcoastpacker

    eastcoastpacker Cheesehead

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    I guess I need to restock my beer cooler,this might be a long season. But I'll be watching every game I can! I think that the packers aren't done yet for the o-line,they will get some more guys in camp when cuts start,but how much better will they be???
     
  12. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    4Packgirl,

    I am not asking, neither expecting Green Bay to win the NFC Championship nor the Super Bowl. What I would expect is the team's GM to do something about what is obviously the biggest weakness on this team. Instead, we have our future HOF QB running for his life on every down. Think about that for a moment... If Favre had of walked out the door in February, how could you possibly expect Rodgers to prosper when he would have had no time to read the defense or get rid of the ball?

    I am not going to lay into McCarthy after one preseason game. However, one might question the logic of bringing in all new coaching staff, a new blocking system and two rookie guards to hold it together? This was something I was skeptical of prior to preseason beginning, and was criticized for it. Unfortunately from what I have seen in their first showing, it is even worse than I thought. The o-line did not even look remotely prepared for the game unlike the other teams I watched, yet some of you seem content for the Pack to play "catch-up" while our QB is getting overrun.

    Some people have sarcastically asked what TT "should" have done. While I have my own opinion, I am not the GM responsible for this mess - he is. In my opinion, he should be held accountable as this problem was evident all last season and not a single thing appears to have been done to correct it.

    As it stands, I really hope I am wrong and these guys can pull it together.

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  13. 4packgirl

    4packgirl Cheesehead

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    ok, cool anubis. personally, i HATE the what-if chit that is rampant on here. i like to deal with & live in the here & now. we have the team we have & to me it is completely pointless to try & figure out whose "fault" it is.

    as we all know, the NFL is designed to have teams at the top for awhile & then at the bottom (in general) so why it is such a surprise to people that we are finally at the bottom again is beyond me!!

    looks like this will be an interesting season to say the least & i think we're all gonna have to drink heavily to make it through!! :pals:
     
  14. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    Anubis, I would agree with you in terms that this is TT's mess (in reference to the o-line). I think however that he has taken a passive approach in rebuilding our G rotation. I think he has tried, for the second straight year, a solution which will work if given a miracle. To think a LT can transition into a LG position in all of about 2 months of slow paced action isn't as bright as it seems.

    TT might have played the easy way out with this line, and it could cost him big time. My problem now is that we have a first year coach, first year OC, and a first year DC. That is some major warning signs for me right there, because the coaches need time to get into their comfort zone, then, and only then, can they begin to get their players in a comfort zone. I think we say the first year coaches on a learning curve pre-season game 1, and that is why our players struggled so much.
     
  15. Anubis

    Anubis Cheesehead

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    I totally agree. New coaches + new scheme + rookie players does not bode well IMO. This does not mean the guys we have are not going to play their hearts out, it just means there is a much greater chance of opposing defenses tearing them apart.

    On the other side of the ball, I really think our defense will pick up the pace and with any luck, become a dominating factor in our games... especially if the DC continues with what Bates started last season.

    Time will tell, I suppose. Hope for the best, but keep that fridge stocked with beer just in case! ;)

    GO PACK!!!

    Robert C. Hedley
     
  16. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

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    HAHA!

    I like your optimism on Sanders, but I think that Sanders will last 2 years tops in GB. I just don't think he is a good mesh with our young players, who need a lively man like Bates. Sanders has the passion, just not the energy to get a ton more out of this group.

    That is why I was looking for McCarthy to hire the Bills fired DC. Would have loved that, IMO since he would have brought a lot more agressiveness and energy.
     
  17. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    Anubis...love the Rosie signature!! Who the hell was the comedian that came up with that line.....saw it on TV and have since forgot.

    I am excited because I am a pragmatic fellow...and I am cognizent of the fact that all the weaknesses on this team will not and can not be fixed in a mere year or two. Whether you wish to believe it or not....we are not re-loading, we are much closer to re-building. And given that reality, I think the approach being taken is appropriate.

    Look...Brett came back KNOWING exactly what this team would be. If he is cool with it, I am cool with it.......and perhaps...just perhaps...he knows a little more about this team than us.
     
  18. TomAllen

    TomAllen Cheesehead

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    Brett was hoping TT was going to sign him a little help--on O-Line and WR.

    When he saw that TT's ego wanted to build this team from scratch in his own image, he decided he wanted to play anyway after hearing Phil Simms on the radio.

    I hope he doesn't regret his decision by the middle of the year.

    TT bought himself 3-4 more years with the Packer's rebuilding theory, just like Sherman did.

    (You always have to give the new guy a few years)

    But now it's all on TT, and you can't blame Sherman anymore. So, if TT's master plan doesn't work out next year (and I don't believe it will), the TT acolytes will have no more excuses to defend him with.

    Too bad it comes at the expense of Favre's last remaining years!

    Personally, I think TT would have automatically bought himself a few years with the fans and the Packer organization if he said,

    "We have Brett Favre on our team, and we are going to try to win with him now. When Brett retires, then we will rebuild."
     
  19. skibum55

    skibum55 Cheesehead

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    I'll drink to that (or anything else, for that matter) :beer: :beer:
     
  20. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    I agree TA. TT is in full control now. He purged the roster of all the lazy rejects and now is building his own team. As such, he should be given the time necessary to complete the task. I say that improvement should be obvious this year and that by years 3 - 4, this team should be ready to make a big push.
     
  21. IGHPack

    IGHPack Cheesehead

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    as we all know, the NFL is designed to have teams at the top for awhile & then at the bottom (in general) so why it is such a surprise to people that we are finally at the bottom again is beyond me!!

    4packgirl wrote. Has anyone seen the relationship between who needs a stadium, who is approved for a stadium, and who has now gotten their new stadium? Football is a bussiness where the goal is to get the tax payers to ante up as much as possible.
     
  22. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    IMO if TT had seen a team with a realistic chance to make a run by adding some players around BF he would have considered it.

    A monumental task it would have been to go this route.

    To give BF the support he needed we would have had to pull two guards out of a hat for one. Other than Hutchinson there just hasn't been those guys available. We've all been looking for this for a year and a half and they just haven't been there.

    But let's say they were. We pick up two quality guards.

    We shore up the WR position.

    We go the route of another running back with Green's health issues.

    Then there is the defense. To make a realistic run....

    We need to replace Grady, sign or replace Kampman, replace Carroll and get a quality backup CB.

    Get two outside LB's and assume Poppy and Manning will suffice as backups.

    Replace Roman and get a decent backup DB.

    Then there is the Special Teams issues. You have to be good there to make a realistic run in the playoffs.

    Anything shy of addressing these issues would not be realistic in making a run in the playoffs.

    I don't see what TT has done involving ego. He assessed this team accurately in being sorely in need of depth and quality in a significant number of positions.

    Yes, he could have gone the "popular" route and probably won over more fans.

    But this team was not three or four good FA's from being a contender.
    With the lack of depth we had it would have been nothing more than a pretender.
     
  23. TomAllen

    TomAllen Cheesehead

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    In today's NFL, warhawk, teams don't rebuild like that anymore. By completely tearing down a team and trying to build from scratch.

    It simply takes too long.

    The way to do it is to fill in the holes that you have, especially on O-Line. Because there's always someone out there who can help. I can't believe that there was no one available in the NFL in 2 years that TT could have signed to help out the Pack's O-Line.

    Then, if you do that, you don't have to waste so many draft picks on offensive lineman, and you can address the defense. You go after WR in FA. And the Packers had enough RB's not to worry about that area.

    But, as someone stated once before. TT decided to try and rebuild his O-Line, his defense, and WR's--all at the same time! This simply is not "realistic" and can not be done. I think it was his plan from day one to tear down this team, no matter what shape they were in, because his philosophy is that you "build through the draft". That, to me, smacks of ego.

    He wants to have only his fingerprints on this team. No matter how long it takes.

    Oh, there were other ways to address this teams needs. As many posters here have pointed out. TT just knows one way, and probably wouldn't listen to any differing points of view.
     
  24. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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    Well than I guess we can agree to disagree.

    I highly doubt TT would have went about "tearing down" a team that was well on it's way to being where it needed to be just to put his fingerprint on it.
    It has been a well known fact throughout the NFL circles for a few years now that the Packers were no where near where they had been depth-wise when they were on top.

    As far as guards go you can believe that there hasn't been anybody out there and challenge you to name 'em. They ain't been there Tom and that's a fact. Several in here have been watching every one that has come along and no one has come available that would have gotten a response other than "another cheap TT move" player.

    Don't think TT has a frozen position regarding this. He would have jumped on a quality guard that would work here in a New York second and would love to have the luxury of bringing these rooks along.
     
  25. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

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    TomAllen - You are exactly correct when you say "teams don't rebuild like that anymore". The reality, in my opinion, is that MS tried like hell to find those few pieces to put the team over the top the entire time he was here. In doing so, he invested HEAVILY in players who just did not pan out and took unreasonable risks in selecting project-type players as well.

    The end result was a team lacking quality in many positions, depth across the board, and struggling with cap issues as a result of the Joe Johnson, C. Hunt and, to some extent, KGB contracts. In today's game, the replacements are supposed to be on the roster being grommed for several years and able to step in when their time comes. This team was not in that position when TT took over. He is now putting the team in position to operate in the manner you suggest. But, given what he inherited, it needs more than 2 years. As I said earlier, we should see improvement this year, and begin making a push in the next 1-2 years.
     

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