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Players You Are Down On.

Discussion in 'Draft Talk' started by GleefulGary, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Thought this could be fun.

    Who are the players that you're low on compared to the consensus? I'd like to keep this mainly to the higher profile players, but all are welcome.

    I'll start:

    - Tee Higgins: Awful 10 yard split, poor vertical, he just doesn't seem to be a good athlete. Good size and hands. Seems like he's a good possession WR, but is that a player you take in the first two rounds? I just really wouldn't, especially in this draft.

    - Kenneth Murray: He's an athletic downhill striker. Looks like a legit player, but he hasn't done much in coverage, and when he has, it's been pretty meh. I think he's a round 2 player, not the 1st like I've seen.

    - Austin Jackson: Has the look, has the tools, but he is soft. He's more like Spriggs than Ezra Cleveland. I'd take him on day 3.

    - Trevon Diggs: I just don't think he's that good. Again, I'm probably a round or two lower on him than consensus.

    - Grant Delpit: His 2018 tape was good, but his 2019 tape was pretty average. Haven't heard of any injuries that would cause that. Makes me iffy on him. Round 2 or 3, only because his 18 tape was good.

    - Jonathan Taylor: I keep on hearing 1st round, but no thanks. He is fast, but I don't think he plays quite as fast as he tests. Very linear athlete. Benefitted from a good OL and overall slow defenses in the Big 10. Against good teams he struggled. Check out the OSU tape. And a major fumbling problem. There's a bunch of backs better than him, including JK Dobbins and CEH.
     
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  2. Fredrik87

    Fredrik87 Cheesehead

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    Ok I like your list so I'm going to borrow 2 guy's from it hope you don't mind.

    -Tee Higgins.

    -Keneth Murray.

    -Neville Gallimore.

    -Laviska Shenault.

    -K'Lavon Chaisson

    -Cesar Ruiz

    -D'andre Swift
     
  3. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Oh Gallimore is a good one. I've seen people talking about him at 30, and I just don't see it. Really good athlete, but he needs a lot of work.

    I like Ruiz, can't agree with you there.
     
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  4. PackFan2

    PackFan2 Cheesehead

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    Gary, thanks for the thread. I wanted to make a thread similar to this but didn't want to be "that guy." Lol.
    I'll list some of mine soon.
     
  5. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    @GleefulGary 110% there with you on Higgins. While I wouldn't be opposed if he is there for our pick at #64, I honestly like Pittman Jr. better than I do him.
     
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  6. bigbubbatd

    bigbubbatd Cheesehead

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    I dont want the Packers to take Taylor but to say he struggled against good teams isnt really accurate. He faced 5 top 25 run defenses last year (OSU twice so 5 I guess)

    In those 6 games he had 827 yards on 141 carries for 5.9 ypc. He also had just under 100 yards receiving. He also fumbled 1 time in those games. All that while having a qb who was just terrible in those games and defenses were completely focused on him. Half his yards came in two games but even still he averaged 100 per game in the other 4. And one OSU game was bad but the other one he was terrific
     
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  7. Fredrik87

    Fredrik87 Cheesehead

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    Just thought of another guy : Donovan Peoples-Jones
     
  8. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    DPJ is a solid WR in that Tier 2 group which would include arguably guys like Van Jefferson, Michael Pittman, Bryan Edwards, KJ Hill, KJ Hamler and Claypool in for some as well.

    DPJ produced at a school with terrible QB play consistently about as well as I would argue anyone would have; be that Jeudy, Jefferson, Reagor, Aiyuk, Ruggs, Mims...

    Not trying to change your mind, but really look at DPJ's film. The dude has the chops and ability to succeed. He nearly always made the big catches in big moments when asked. So I think one is valid if down on him in relation to maybe drafting him ahead of some others OR early...but his ability IMO would be an IMMENSE steal from the first pick in the 3rd onward. I will say out of that Tier 2 he is my second to last favorite out of all those Tier 2 guys I listed though so I both agree and disagree depending on how critical or down you are on him.
     
  9. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Justin Jefferson - unable to beat pressure coverage, team played him almost exclusively from the slot last season to avoid press coverage. He'd be a great 2nd round pick but I don't think he's worth a 1st with his limitations compared to some of the other receivers in this class.
     
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  10. Sunshinepacker

    Sunshinepacker Cheesehead

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    Pretty sure the Packers just signed a slightly worse version of Tee Higgins anyway.
     
  11. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    34 catches for 438 yards isnt much production. We just drafted another wolverine with incredible measurables and very little production and I'm a little gun shy. But I am for Reagor, who did a little better last season than DPJ, with even worse QB play. But Reagor did have a great season as a sophmore in 2018, so I know he can play. DPJ has a question mark.

    My addition to the list is Mekhi Beckton. Hes an impressive player, but I would downgrade him because of his size.

    At 6'7" and 360 lbs, and doing what an OT has to do: quick multi directional moves and sudden planting, pushing and torquing against very large powerful and quick men, that is a lot of stress on those knees. I hope he has a long career, but it seems the truly gigantic guys are more often than not, dogged by knee injuries.
     
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  12. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    Look deeper than his stats like I stated. He also missed two games. Judging a player by purely stats will mislead you often and would get someone fired from a scout team LOL :)

    I'm with you on Beckton as I'm not as high as some are on him. In that tier 1 list of Tackles I like nearly all the others before him.
     
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  13. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Wasn't the good OSU game when Chase Young was hurt?

    Look, I think he's good. I just don't think he's a first round back.
     
  14. bigbubbatd

    bigbubbatd Cheesehead

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    Nope. Young played at least most of the game. Had 6 tackles. I dont know if first round backs exist anymore but I think Taylor is right up there. I think his vision is incredible. This Badgers oline wasnt busting open Ron Dayne size holes. Taylor is incredibly patient and shows a quick burst in holes. His fumbling and receiving are things that need work. However if you watched what he was up against in the box compared to some of the other backs in this class it isnt even close. OSU had so many weapons so teams couldnt stack the box. Taylor did his work while teams knew Coan couldnt beat them.

    No need to debate much more. I just have said since the beginning of last year when watching Taylor I am more impressed with him than any Badger running back I have seen - I started watching around Ron dayne.
     
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  15. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    Why do I get the feeling GleefulGary may be the kind of guy who will change "are" in the title to "went" and delete his posts at some point?
     
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  16. Fredrik87

    Fredrik87 Cheesehead

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    If your talking third round and it would have to be late third round then I don't hate it, but I don't really like him until the 4th or 5th.

    But I've seen Mocks where he's gone as high as the first round and several where he goes in the second and I just can't wrap my mind around that.

    He's never had a 100 yard game in his career. Or 700 yards or 10+ TD's in a season.
    And though you could say his QB was bad he only had a 12.9 yard per reception average, Ronnie Bell and Nico Collins two other Michigan WR's had 15.8 and 19.7 yard per reception averages respectfully.
    And they both had over 250 yards more than Peoples-Jones last season as well, they were dealing with the same QB as he was so why was their production so much better.

    He's just way to high risk for me especially with all the other great options in this draft at his position.
     
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  17. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    MVS led GB in Yds/Rec by a LOT last year.....does nothing to mean he is better than any of the others. Again isolated stats cannot make overviews of a player.
     
  18. PackFan2

    PackFan2 Cheesehead

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    Justin Jefferson - Spent 90% of his time in the slot, other 10% in backfield in 2019. I don't even think he faced alot of press-coverage in 19'. Not a nuanced route-runner. He runs 4 routes! slant, go, quick out, in. Five (if you want to include deep post) at most! And he doesn't even do a great job running them. So.. What happens when he's faced with press coverage? Watch 18' games. Played majority of snaps in 18' as the outside receiver (x, z) where he got bullied (by guys like CJ Henderson). Quick thinking on coaches part switched him to play in the slot in '19. Not sure if he can play as an outside receiver in the pros. Wish I saw him partake in 1v1 (like senior bowl & eastvswest). One thing I know for sure, he can catch and is good enough athlete to make it happen. I don't dislike Jefferson, I just don't think he's a first-round talent.

    Laviska Shenault - I get why people like him. He's a big receiver with good hands that can play both slot and outside. I had a feeling he wasn't the fastest guy, where some people said he was going to run 4.4. His injury history concerns me and sometimes I felt like he took plays off. I get it, he was 100% the soul of that offense. Maybe some NFL team can work with him, Im just not feeling it with Shenault.

    K'Lavon Chaisson - Athletic LSU EDGE. One year production scares me. Boom or bust.

    Yetur Gross-Matos - Reminds me of a less athletic Courtney Brown.

    Patrick Queen - I know I was high on him. I just think we need to pump the brakes. One year of production and the fact that he got beat out by Michael Divinity Jr to start the season says something... Coach O also said he hope/wishes Queen returns for his senior year. I like Queen, I just don't think he belongs in the first round. Second round is where I put him. I hate to compare him but he does not play as physical like a Deion Jones (I loved Jones as a prospect coming out of college) but has similar speed just not physicality.

    Devin Duvernay - Small, fast & explosive player, I don't think he dropped a pass in 19'. However, he can't create much separation because he is a poor route runner but uses his speed at times to his advantage. Once DBs get their hands on him he disappears. (EX: Senior bowl 1v1 drills) I took him off my list.

    Jordyn Brooks - I wish he didn't hesitate soo much. When he makes that decision and go get it, he looks good but thats few. He shows he has speed but that doesnt show up on tape.



    I cant wait in a year or two to see how wrong (or right) I was.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
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  19. Fredrik87

    Fredrik87 Cheesehead

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    Of course Isolated stats cannot make overviews of player's but it's not just that one stat I gave, he's also never broken 700 yards
    receiving in a season and never had a 100 yard game.
    He's also not the greatest blocker from what I've heard either.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2020
  20. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    I've never deleted a post here that I can remember. Hell, I think I even still have your signature from the bet I lost with you about Harold Landry. I ain't afraid to be wrong.
     
  21. GleefulGary

    GleefulGary Cheesehead

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    Oh good grief I'm slow today.

    And you're funny.

    I'm not.
     
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  22. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

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    Justin Jefferson, WR, LSU: I'm down on Jefferson vs. consensus. If he was projected for the 2nd round, I wouldn't have anything to say. But since he's supposed to be a middle of the first round guy, I have to say that I'm down on him. What he can do against press coverage is 100% a projection. What he can do on the outside is almost 100% a projection. His offense created so much for him. He has terrific hands/ball skills and will make tough catches, and I love that about him, but that's not nearly enough for me to be interested so high.

    K.J. Hamler, WR, PSU: Being small is one thing, but playing small is something else. Hamler is small and plays small. When defenders are interrupting his space, the odds that he makes the play go way down. And while he's super fast, he's not really a nuanced separator, so guys seem to be on him a lot more often than you're think.

    Austin Jackson, OT, USC: Seems like every positive report on Jackson has to lead with excuses regarding his bone marrow donation over the summer. I can buy that such a procedure would have made it hard to be ready for the start of the year, so when I turn on an early game against Utah and Bradley Anae is kicking his butt, I can forgive that. But then I fast forward all the way to the end of the year, against Iowa, and he still looks out-classed by Epenesa. I can respect that he's talented, but I think you're going to have to suffer for two seasons before that talent makes good-- if it ever does.

    Bryce Hall, CB, UVA: I don't trust these UVA corners that play nothing but off and have all this ball production. I just don't buy it. I think drafting him is basically investing in an unknown quantity, because you're going to have to ask him to play in a way that the Cavs never did.

    Kenneth Murray, LB, OK: It's not that I don't like Murray for what he is, because I do. However, I see him in a class of linebacker that isn't going to be an asset moving away from the LOS. Thus while he might be an incrementally better version of that type of linebacker compared to what can be had on day 2 (e.g. Harrison, Wilson, Brooks), he's not superior to the point that I think he's worth being selected 30-60 picks above those other guys.
     
  23. Dantés

    Dantés Gute Loot

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    FYI-- Delpit got a high ankle sprain in October and played through it.
     
  24. Heyjoe4

    Heyjoe4 Cheesehead

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    Your comments are especially useful when evaluating tackles. There is much more movement/technique involved and that does stress the knee. Ask the same knees to carry 360 lbs and well, not good.

    Now that you mention it I’m curious about the playing weight of Bakhtiari and former Packer Bulaga. I don’t know what they weigh, but would bet it’s below 360 lbs. That’s a weight more appropriate for a G or C, IMO.
     
  25. Heyjoe4

    Heyjoe4 Cheesehead

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    I’m not crazy about Kenneth Murray. I would like to avoid using a first round pick on another Oren Burks. Queen is a better player, but in any other year, where there are more options at ILB, both of these guys are round 2, IMO. With Kirksey on board, I’d rather see Gluten go WR round 1 and pick up another ILB in rd 2 or 3.
     

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