Overhaul the D

[packerbacker#4]

Who do we keep in an overhaul of the D? I think that this is unavoidable if we really want to dominate next year. Do you think sherman has the guts to do away with some of these guys that immediately come to mind when you think of the D?

I think and most everyone will go "duh!" that the problem is the secondary and the other one is the pass rush.

Guys that need to go:
Secondary:
Bhawoh Jue(S/CB)- hes not getting it done guys, I don't know why we keep him, nice guy but not a leader in the secondary and not good enough to be a fill-in. Will probably end up as a backup on some other team.

Mark Roman(FS)- I have not seen very much out of him as a "replacement" for Leroy like we thought he could be in preseason. Not a good tackler and does not bring the heat. I don't like his instincts and he lacks speed to get to where he needs to be when he needs to be there. Not a single interception and I think that the Philly game did it for him.

Michael Hawthorne(S/CB)- definitely gone next, awful tackler and cover guy. Cannot blitz worth anything. I know I should have put him at the top of the list but I forgot.


Linebackers:
Paris Lenon(WL/SL)- hes another new guy that needs to go, he gets overpowered easily by blockers and does not shed them. Does Not have good vision and in my opinion does not fit for us. Not a good pick by Mike Sherman.

Torrance Marshall(ML)- Not a contributer and not reliable to hold the fort to give the starters breathers. Hes on the injured reserve with a hamstring injury but based on past experience not worth even the few hundred thousand dollars we pay him.


D-Line:
Cletidus Hunt(DT)- Has played well of late, but takes plays off and allows blockers to get to the second level. James Lee has the size we would need. Hunt doesn't play up to the level he could. Been here a few years and he's had problems with Sherman esp. in 2004 training camp.

KGB(DE)- Wow this was hard for me but does he really play for the money we give him? His numbers are down and has missed several key tackles like others on this list. Not a good run stuffer and loses outside containment way to much. He bites ******* fakes and causes more work for the linebackers.

Kenny Peterson(DT/DE)- I think Coach Sherman will let him go because he hasn't been the 3rd end we needed. Doesn't play to much anyway, and has been hurt most of his two years.

R-Kal Truluck(DE)- Wow I don't understand why we got this guy. He's getting on in years and his best ones were definitely behind him when we got him. Doesn't really do much of anything besides special teams and hasn't done much on there.


Guy maybe we don't really need because of injuries, doesn't play to expectation or well enough for money, age, etc. Ask me if you have questions about these guys. (I'm not saying these guys need to go right now, just speculating)
Darren Sharper- fan-favorite, but really do we need him? Plagued by injuries, but a good leader for Carrol, Thomas.
Na'il Diggs- actually two years ago I would have kept Nate Wayne, not Diggs, contributer and a huge team leader, but is his age a question mark?
Hannibal Navies- quiet guy just does his job and what does he get, he gets put on my "maybe-we-don't-need-him" list. Good guy.


Guys to build D around: (One per section)
Al Harris- good cover corner with an attitude, can really be spectacular and good model for young Carrol and Thomas and Horton
Nick Barnett- hey this is a learning season, no? He can get an edge, just needs to learn to know the when and where to do some of the odd things he does. Has the right attitude for perhaps the biggest job on a D.
Grady Jackson- He speaks for himself, been nothing but an awesome thing for this team. He is the sole reason they are a hard team to run on-most of the time.

That's it

GO PACK

 

[packerbacker#4]

(I'm saying these guys need to go right now, just speculating)

That should read "(I'm not saying these guys need to go right now, just speculating)"

Sorry :roll: :wink:

 

[Ryan]

Packerbacker#4 you can go back and edit your message after you post as well as delete your second one if you would like. To edit your first one click the "Edit" button on the top of the article on the right. To delete the second one click the "X" button on the top right of THAT posting.

Ryan

 

[Guest]

I disagree on a couple....mostly Na'il Diggs being in the to go column, and Mark Roman.

Roman and Sharper aren't gonna be accurately judged this year, since they have to compensate too much for a rookie corner. Diggs has been one of the better Defensive players we've had this season, IMO, and always seems to come up huge in stopping run plays. I agree about KGB, I feel we overpay for the production we get for him, and same for Cleditus Hunt. We pay him as a big time DT, who has yet to show any kind of hint of being big time.

 

[ArizonaPackerFan]

I think Sharper is either going to have to take a huge paycut, or become a salary cap casualty next year. He hasn't been able to stay healthy the last few years, and I think we could use his salary to either upgrade a couple of positions, or use it to extend the contracts of some more worthy players. His salary for next year is huge if he doesn't agree to a paycut.

We really need some help on the D-line in my opinion. I'm hoping that Carroll and Thomas develop more by next season to help shore up the secondary so the Packers can concentrate on adding a couple of D-linemen instead on the defense. I think our pass rush is the most glaring weakness at the moment.

 

[ArizonaPackerFan]

I don't know what Sharper's salary cap number is next year, but this year it was over $7 million according to the link below. Considering his average performance and his questioable health, I think the Packers have to get him to take a pay cut next year so they can use that money towards other players.

http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/feb04/209607.asp

 

[ricky]

packerbacker#4, an exhaustive post, so I'll give a relative exhaustive reply.
I disagree on the cutting of Jue and Roman. Jue has been switched back and forth between safety and CB- I think he's more natural at satefy, and could be a good one there. Not great, but solid. As for Roman, usually he's a very sure tackler. His problem is in coverage (the Philly game made that abundantly clear). Good on run support, though, and too often has to play out of position because of the problems with the defensive line. As for Hawthorne... uke:
Now, Lenon isn't much, and could probably replaced in the draft. However, Marshall is generally a very good special teams player. The Packers need these guys also. Keep him until they can find someone in the draft to replace him at a cheaper price.
Hunt has been a target for a while (Should we go Hunt hunting?). However, as with KGB, the salary cap implications make moving these players difficult, if not impossible. The Packers would take an enormous "dead weight" cap hit if KGB was cut, in particular. Besides, if they trade KGB- who to replaces him? Not all that great, but 8 1/2 sacks is not terrible- except when you look at the price the Packers are paying. I absolutely agree with the Tru-Luc comment. Despetation breeds strange moves- but this one was beyond the imagination of Rod Serling.
Sharper has been on my "good-bye" list for a while. He's lost a step or two, has a huge salary looming, and has been bitten by the "injury bug" too much.
Solutions: some my own, some offered by people on other forums, but I'll put them here:
At linebacker, get Tommy Polley. A free agent out of St. Louis (only four years in the league), he has (in my sightings of him) a good motor, a strong instinct for the ball, and likes to play. Draft or sign a middle linebacker, move Barnett to WSLB, and let Diggs and Navies compete for playing time.
On the DL, hope that Donnell Washington can come on strong, but draft a DT and/or DE who can play NOW. Enough of drafting for "potential". Sherman has to realize "the future is now".
Let Sharper go (if the salary cap allows), and both (a) get a competent free agent and (b) got after a good "cover" safety in the draft. Someone who can cover tight ends, someone out of the backfield, and tackle with authority
This defense isn't in a shambles- it just needs some "tweaking".
And one area you didn't mention: coaching. Dump the defensive line coach (Franklin). Dump the defensive backs coach (Schottenheimer- and promote Washington; oops, isn't that what McKenzie wanted?). Get some better second line players to help the special teams unit (Bonamego was a terrific coach in Jacksonville- I don't think he's lost his ability- just the players).

 

[packerbacker#4]

In response to Mark Roman,, he has not been what we thought he would be. He has been a poor tackler regardless of making up for what Ahmad Carrol misses. I agree on your run support comment though, he does hit the line of scrimmage nice and fast and wraps up there, but the opeen field, I just haven't seen it. he made huge whiffs in the philly game, the colts game and the titans game. all of those were big losses although in the eagles and titans game it didn't matter because the whole defense was ******** up- which I guess it does matter because hes part of our D.

Ok, for the D line I think that we got Grady and Cullen Jenkins as our big men if Jenkins can manage to put on a couple pounds. I don't if he'll turn out bad if he goes full time, but for the 15-20 plays a game he does get, he brings it. His big bro is that stud Kris Jenkins for the Panthers. I thought that at the beginning af the year this guy could do some stuff. And he brings the pass rush up the middle.
Aaron Kampman can stop the run but as an edge rusher, I would say just below average. Its our ends, man! What do you think we get someone in the draft like Erasmus James or Johnny Welsh. Then we could get rolling.
But I think you're right. The secondary DOES have a future in Carrol and Thomas but we need to focus on the line.

 

[packerbacker#4]

Oh something I forgot to add in response, Good secondary analysis by the way, you made up for my misses. Tommy Polley is a good choice for LB, and he would fit in, did you say, for MLB? Anyway, I don't keep up that much on free agents, which I definitely should. Does anyone know where our draft picks stand right now? I guess I should look that up to. Does DOnnel Washington have that potential? I think that all three: Hannibal, DIggs and Polley would get equal playing time, draft someone suited for SLB and we could have the best depth there of the league.

 

[yooperfan]

Defense

Well you have pretty much swept the whole defense out the door. I don't really disagree with most of what you are saying but the big question is, how do you upgrade from what we have! We aren't going to be in a position to draft high enough to get players that can start immediately and we are so salary cap strapped by past DUMB moves that we can't go big in free agency. I don't know if anyone has the answer but a very good thought was that Sharper should take a pay cut. I would also suggest that KGB and Hunt should also do the same. The really good players like Favre, Winters and Butler have done it for the good of the team in the past. I'm sure there is more fat that could be cut out of that salary cap situation by cutting non-producers money, guys that are too expensive to cut on both sides of the ball. I think we need a real General Manager that can figure it out.

 

[Ryan]

The really good players like Favre, Winters and Butler have done it for the good of the team in the past.

And right now no one is playing well enough to they shouldn't have to when those great players have all done it in the past. (Harris is playing well, but not that well). I guess if they asked people to take a cut we could really see who is there for the team and who is there for the money!

 

[slackerbacker]

Defensive Moves

I think most of us would agree GB has no consistent playmakers (studs) on def. In my opinion, they need at least 1 on the DL at LB and in DB field. To the best of my knowledge, FAs this year are Navies, Whale, Rivera, and Franks. RFAs are Davenport and Kampman and possible Jue. Sad fact is, GB is going to have to give up some talent on the Off side of the ball, to improve the Def. Whale's contract is cost prohibited, he's due a base of 5M and 6M bouns this off-season so I think you have to let him go. Rivera is under a 10M contract which means I doubt he'd play for Gilbert Brown money even though he wants to stay in GB. Bubba has never been the pass recieving threat they drafted him for so I'd let him go as well which all total would free up approx. 20 to 30M to improve this Def. Navies has a shoulder seperation injury that has troubled him all year; he wears a brace to keep it from popping out. I let Navies go and move Barnett to the outside where he can use his speed. Next GB has to find a plugger LB for the Mike spot. This guy doesn't need to be outstanding, just someone who is very good against the run. Number 1 need position is a pass rushing DL to help KGB avoid the 2bl teams. Next, GB has to find someone who can take over where LeRoy Butler left off. This new SS should be a guy GB can build it's Def around the next several years. GB should have the draft picks and money to improve this Def w/out gutting the offense. OL coach has been very good at finding and molding replacement players in the past. GB has to scout and find some defensive playmakers. They can't afford to miss this time around nor can they wait for some rookie to adjust to the NFL. No underachievers or mental midgets need to apply. Must pass background check and above all be a football player who wants to win as much as he wants the money!

 

[packerbacker#4]

Re: Defense

Well you have pretty much swept the whole defense out the door. I don't really disagree with most of what you are saying but the big question is, how do you upgrade from what we have! We aren't going to be in a position to draft high enough to get players that can start immediately and we are so salary cap strapped by past DUMB moves that we can't go big in free agency. I don't know if anyone has the answer but a very good thought was that Sharper should take a pay cut. I would also suggest that KGB and Hunt should also do the same. The really good players like Favre, Winters and Butler have done it for the good of the team in the past. I'm sure there is more fat that could be cut out of that salary cap situation by cutting non-producers money, guys that are too expensive to cut on both sides of the ball. I think we need a real General Manager that can figure it out.

A General Manager would let Mike do his job and coach. He hasn't been picking up the best free agents but I don't see anyone major that would fit with us. Other than Tommy Polley. The more I think about that guy being on our team the more I like the idea of it. Great suggestion, ricky.
Sharper should act like the veteran he is and take a pay cut.

 

[IPBprez]

I think Sharper is either going to have to take a huge paycut, or become a salary cap casualty next year. He hasn't been able to stay healthy the last few years, and .....his salary for next year is huge if he doesn't agree to a paycut.

This nails it on the head for me... Sharper has been a drain and false god for the Defense ever since he signed that big contract. What was it, right after that year he had against Chicago.. Pre-contract Sharper was a dynamic player with eyes in the back of his head; after the contract is a whole different person - you'd think aliens came and replaced him... he's just another Antonio Freeman all over again and in the last three years I've seen no major changes back to the old Sharper... so, THAT's not gonna happen. And, I think I know why.....

Short scenario here----] As part of what I do to cheer on the Packers, and have all my life, btw --- I head up the IndyPackerBackers. And, last year, we made strides to become a not-for-profit style Club, along the lines of what everyone has seen with the Tulsa Club and the Houston Cheddarheads and Northwest, etc., etc. /// Well, the lady that heads up our connection to being a Charity just happens to be close friends with Darren... and for awhile we were being regailed(sp) with several infamous partying stories.. along the lines of frathouse stuff/john belushi style... and this is "during" the regular season; so what does that do to a player's ability to keep up...hhuh? In fact, I used to hear quite a bit about many of the players and what they were really like... what's that one player's name that went to Oakland, I think... his garage in Green Bay couldn't be opened to public scrutiny because it was always FULL of empty cases of beer cans...constantly... Anyway - it seems with the money comes the lax attitude....especiallly when it comes to our not-so-Sharp(er) guy. Granted, I'm sure he's a great guy to be around - but he's let his career slide in favor of the good-time-charlie gig...

Bottom line - We should have traded Sharper away like we were going to attempt to do when the Couch-trip scenario went down... Yeah - that's right, you heard me - Sherman, in hopes of grabbing that awesome (NOT) QB, named Tim Couch... did have plans to throw Sharper in the mix and send him off to Cleveland as part of that trade.... oh, how I wish they would have! (Yes, PN - that was what I couldn't talk about when all that hoopla was going down - 'sides, I figure you already had heard inklings of that nature anyway, being the sports writer that you are - pretty goodun, too!)

Here's what I feel is the real problem -- It's the Coaching Staff.
With good coaching comes winning seasons... ex? - Vince Lombardi / Mike Holmgren - just to name two... With GOOD coaching you don't get players who are fat or slow or lazy -- or all three at once. They rip those players a new one and no one sits down, ever!

I'll be starting a post on exactly that subject shortly....

I say Ahmad Carroll needs his batrope taken away and needs to knock off all the penalties, or throw him out and find others... free agency has been the best packerbacker we've seen during this Sherman era... only Barnett has been a diamond in the rough and getting shinier (of late)... and of course, having Grady in there makes all the diff - having both him and Gravedigger on the payroll was HUGE and they did the Packer a huge mistake by treating Gilbert the way they did... (sidebar) I was at the Home Opener this year and just about everyone of the bigger stars for GB were there with one exception --- Gilbert Brown (why was that?) -- Hey, even Frankie-gimme another donut-Winters was there, along with Lynn ****ey and Majik Man, and so on - I got several autographs... WHY NO GRAVEDIGGER? I had even wrote to and spoke with Bob Harlan over the phone several times... and in the end.. my wish was not fulfilled. ya see, I wanted them to have Gilbert come out at halftime and say goodbye to everyone.. and that was... one of his last wishes... and Sherman closed the door...WHY?

Any way... the D certainly needs work - but my thinking is the OC and the DC both need more, definitely MORE, work... especially the OC - who should have been the one let go last year... not Donatell. Which by now, EVERYONE in the NFL can see for themselves.

Go Pack! (That means you, Rossley)

Go Packers!

 

[gotarace27]

How about this for a idea, sign these long contract, overpayed, pay thiefs to a one year contract. This way they will be playing ever year like its a contract year. Then when a team lets them go you dont have to take a hit on the salery cap. Seams to me every packer on defense that has signed to a long term contract, sits on their hands until it is contract year again.

 

[Brad]

Packerbacker, i would have to agree with your personel moves in your first statement....This defense needs a huge facelift and getting rid of those guys would free up the cash to do it!

 

[IPBprez]

packerbacker#4, an exhaustive post, so I'll give a relative exhaustive reply.
I disagree on the cutting of Jue and Roman. Jue has been switched back and forth between safety and CB- I think he's more natural at safety, and could be a good one there. Not great, but solid. As for Roman, usually he's a very sure tackler. His problem is in coverage (the Philly game made that abundantly clear). Good on run support, though, and too often has to play out of position because of the problems with the defensive line.

Jue has cost us in every year for the last three.. last year was extremely disappointing, with KC and then the Eagles on MNF.. He should have been gone with Reynolds. He was a Safety in College, but hasn't got the speed to maintain NFL coverages. Roman may gel, but he'd better be doing windsprints in the off-season, along with learning how to tackle using fundamentals, not hugging the guy to death while being carried down the damn field... his pre-season workouts were real good - but now, not sure what's goin' on. JUE needs to be gone, a long time ago.

As for Hawthorne... uke:
Now, Lenon isn't much, and could probably replaced in the draft. However, Marshall is generally a very good special teams player. The Packers need these guys also. Keep him until they can find someone in the draft to replace him at a cheaper price.

Agreed! I like Marshall, as well. He has glints of being a good starter.. As for Hawthorne, well, last year when McKenzie went down with back spasms, Hawthorne was a godsend instead of dealing with JUE all damn day... he had several tackles and at least two int's. Still he needs to stay in that attitude to keep his position and that's not happening this year...

Hunt has been a target for a while (Should we go Hunt hunting?).

Most definitely.. very sporadic play for two seasons now... remember Cleveland in the pre-season last year... that was one of only (like) three times I saw him get up off his duff and actually play like he wanted to be there... and someone had to knock him on his *** first, to do it. Real sad. Hey, I like the guy, really - but c'mon, let's be real - it's damn good money.. goin' to waste.

However, as with KGB, the salary cap implications make moving these players difficult, if not impossible. The Packers would take an enormous "dead weight" cap hit if KGB was cut, in particular. Besides, if they trade KGB- who to replaces him? Not all that great, but 8 1/2 sacks is not terrible- except when you look at the price the Packers are paying. I absolutely agree with the Tru-Luc comment. Despetation breeds strange moves- but this one was beyond the imagination of Rod Serling.

Truluc comment? I'll read back...

Sharper has been on my "good-bye" list for a while. He's lost a step or two, has a huge salary looming, and has been bitten by the "injury bug" too much.

Definite agreement here - he's apparently worrying more about the party lifestyle than staying in tip-top shape... and this year, I do believe we take an 8million $$$ hit from him..

Solutions: some my own, some offered by people on other forums, but I'll put them here:
At linebacker, get Tommy Polley. A free agent out of St. Louis (only four years in the league), he has (in my sightings of him) a good motor, a strong instinct for the ball, and likes to play. Draft or sign a middle linebacker, move Barnett to WSLB, and let Diggs and Navies compete for playing time.
On the DL, hope that Donnell Washington can come on strong, but draft a DT and/or DE who can play NOW. Enough of drafting for "potential". Sherman has to realize "the future is now".
Let Sharper go (if the salary cap allows), and both (a) get a competent free agent and (b) got after a good "cover" safety in the draft. Someone who can cover tight ends, someone out of the backfield, and tackle with authority
This defense isn't in a shambles- it just needs some "tweaking".
And one area you didn't mention: Coaching. Dump the defensive line coach (Franklin). Dump the defensive backs coach (Schottenheimer- and promote Washington; oops, isn't that what McKenzie wanted?). Get some better second line players to help the special teams unit (Bonamego was a terrific coach in Jacksonville- I don't think he's lost his ability- just the players).

Well said on Coaching, I like Bonamego, always have - we're just not implementing proper study habits at draft time - then there's that "prevent" mentality from the OC, which is now infecting SLOWik.... bad form all 'round. Kurt seems to have some of his Dad in him after all - with that play-it-safe attitude...
I'm bettin' that with a Coaching change that reflects a Lombardi attitude, the Packers come back HARD.. and the rest of the NFL starts worryin' all over again! Right now, Lombardi has left the building.

 

[El Guapo]

Seeing the "Fire Campen" thread, I thought that I'd look back to see if there was a "Fire Lombardi" thread someone in our history. This was the earliest and is essentially a "fire the defense" thread! Fun to read the old names...

 

[Kitten]

Seeing the "Fire Campen" thread, I thought that I'd look back to see if there was a "Fire Lombardi" thread someone in our history. This was the earliest and is essentially a "fire the defense" thread! Fun to read the old names...

LOL El Guapo digging into the archives to revive an old thread. At first I thought this was a current thread until I read the time stamps! But good point nonetheless.

 

[HyponGrey]

Seeing the "Fire Campen" thread, I thought that I'd look back to see if there was a "Fire Lombardi" thread someone in our history. This was the earliest and is essentially a "fire the defense" thread! Fun to read the old names...

I'd point out there were fire MM threads, but some guys still want to.

If we were going to scrap our current defense, next year would be ideal (actually last year would've been ideal). All the 34 DL are out of a contract.

 

[12theTruth]

Yes it is interesting to check some of the older names out for sure. But I kind of found also interesting the smarmy reaction by a couple posters for my reply to the James Campen thread needs to go thread when the subject matter was still relevant not too mention many of the same components, head coach, lineman, etc., etc. are still the same.

This one goes back to a different head coach, QB, etc., etc. I enjoy reading it though.

 

[GeeDogWarrior]

The personnel on those Mike Sherman defenses were just awful...
It's a good thing we took it out on the coordinator and fired him... that improved the defense and he went nowhe-oh, he's coaching in San Francisco for the best Defense in the league ?

 

[El Guapo]

Point made, although Donatell is coaching the weakest link on the 49ers defense...meaning I don't think that we let a "keeper" walk away into the night.

 

[I_am_smoked_cheddar]

The personnel on those Mike Sherman defenses were just awful...
It's a good thing we took it out on the coordinator and fired him... that improved the defense and he went nowhe-oh, he's coaching in San Francisco for the best Defense in the league ?

 

[HardRightEdge]

Seeing the "Fire Campen" thread, I thought that I'd look back to see if there was a "Fire Lombardi" thread someone in our history. This was the earliest and is essentially a "fire the defense" thread! Fun to read the old names...

What you might have overlooked is that most of that "fire the defense" analysis was on the mark.