Matt extended

[Heyjoe4]

I doubt many would have him in that tier. I think if MLF let him throw as much as other QBs and in the RZ more he'd have those gaudy undeniable numbers.

Good point. It seems the Packers still struggle in the RZ, although I don't know the stats from last season.

It's harder to pass in the RZ, but the Packers have the QB, WRs and a TE in Kraft who can get the job done. And Jacobs is a good receiver, so they have a lot of options they can run from the same formation.

And as much as I hate to admit it, Jacobs is sliding a bit. That said, inside the 3 y/l there are few backs better than Jacobs at finding the EZ. The OL is a bigger problem IMO. Jacobs doesn't need much room to operate, but he needs some room.

 

[tynimiller]

Some would argue Love doesn't belong in the same tier with Mahomes, Jackson, and Burrrow - but I think he belongs there.

Nearly every single metric you can use to measure a QB he belongs...the only people that don't think he should are typically the following 99% of the time:

- Bears Fan
- HATED us moving on from Rodgers
- Believes Gute/MLF/GB sucks purely because we haven't won a SB in the time frame they feel should have occurred = and therefore all sucks.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Nearly every single metric you can use to measure a QB he belongs...the only people that don't think he should are typically the following 99% of the time:

- Bears Fan
- HATED us moving on from Rodgers
- Believes Gute/MLF/GB sucks purely because we haven't won a SB in the time frame they feel should have occurred = and therefore all sucks.

Love doesn't get the respect he deserves. He was having trouble with completion %, but even that turned around last year. He's not making the same mistakes. He doesn't try to turn something into nothing anymore. He protects the ball well. What more is needed?

Well elite tier or not, Love has slowed his game down and is rounding into a very good QB. No small matter.

For those who think we let Rogers go too soon - nope, that argument doesn't hold water. He was clearly in his final years in the NFL, and even though he played well last year with the Steelers, he's just not the guy who won a SB. And at that age, that's true for almost every QB not named Tom Brady.

I don't put a lot of stock into SB victories when it comes to evaluating a QB - maybe with the exception of Brady and Mahomes. You have pointed out how hard it is to win an NFL game in the regular season, much less advance to and win a SB. The Packers have the talent to be considered legit SB contenders. That's as much as any talented team can say.

I do wonder if his teammates consider him the leader of the offense. I think that designation went to Jacobs for his first two years. Love just doesn't display a lot of emotion on the filed. But I really doubt that makes much difference with his teammates, or in winning games.

 

[tynimiller]

Love doesn't get the respect he deserves. He was having trouble with completion %, but even that turned around last year. He doesn't make many mistakes any more and protects the ball where. What more is needed?

Well elite tier or not, Love has slowed his game down and is rounding into a very good QB. No small matter.

Honestly I disagree with that which is bolded - but it is very common statement I hear. But to be fair I disagree with blindly yielding to completion percentage as it includes honestly at times a good decision by the QB or the QB isn't the one that rushed the pass purposefully but it was the defender in his face before the second drop step...

BUT.....Who can spot Love...this is a list of what is considered some of the best QBs in the league over the last three seasons.....Obviously the last two are just two year guys...

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

The messaging of this is simple...it is quite NORMAL amongst the best in the league to be in that 62-69% range.

 

[OldSchool101]

Also on the completion %. It seemed like Rodgers hovered mid to low 60’s% for quite a few years. Without looking 63-64% was pretty normal. Yet I think when we look to completion % we should include
1. Yards per attempt
2. Drop %

If we have
player A throwing in 67.7% at 6.5 yards per throw and
player B Throwing 63.3% at 8.3 per attempt

Give me player B here all day.

 

[adambr2]

I agree with you Adam. Ty's comment about you was too harsh. As much as Ty contributes here, he can let emotion get the better of him when talking about a particular player, especially around the draft - so it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

We all let our emotions dictate at least occasional comments. We all have favorite players.

But back to the point, I have always found you to be a valuable contributor on this forum Adam. If you occasionally have a particualrly strong, polarizing comment, welcome to the club! We all do it!

I’m probably more controversial than most.

I had a recent conversation with my therapist where I said “I want to learn how to enjoy sports without becoming so emotionally invested. I don’t want it to ruin my entire week when the Packers lose.”

Anyway, thank you for the kind words!

 

[tynimiller]

I agree with you Adam. Ty's comment about you was too harsh. As much as Ty contributes here, he can let emotion get the better of him when talking about a particular player, especially around the draft - so it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

We all let our emotions dictate at least occasional comments. We all have favorite players.

But back to the point, I have always found you to be a valuable contributor on this forum Adam. If you occasionally have a particualrly strong, polarizing comment, welcome to the club! We all do it!

FTR, my biggest pet peeve whether discussing Packers, hunting, any sport or crocheting...anything...is stating things as fact when they are not. Opinions and facts are stated in very different ways. To me stating an opinion as fact is one of the most disengenious things someone can do to an honest conversation, whether I was right or not (doesn't matter) as to @adambr2 doing such, it doesn't justify my method of response and I for sure wish I'd handled it differently.

Such claims as I made, should be substantiated by citing past quotes or discussions, otherwise I'm just blowing smoke and no different than any of the other folks on the board that have drove us all crazy just throwing crap in the air with no evidence of a claim.

Adam claims he has never acted in a way which I eldued to, I'm going to take him at his word.

I’m probably more controversial than most.

I had a recent conversation with my therapist where I said “I want to learn how to enjoy sports without becoming so emotionally invested. I don’t want it to ruin my entire week when the Packers lose.”

Oh man - I pray you see a day where a Packers loss can happen and you can literally be laughing within the hour with family, friends or wherever, cannot imagine it being that much of a mood impacter; I get it though, long time ago I was probably at that level as well or close.

 

[Heyjoe4]

Honestly I disagree with that which is bolded - but it is very common statement I hear. But to be fair I disagree with blindly yielding to completion percentage as it includes honestly at times a good decision by the QB or the QB isn't the one that rushed the pass purposefully but it was the defender in his face before the second drop step...

BUT.....Who can spot Love...this is a list of what is considered some of the best QBs in the league over the last three seasons.....Obviously the last two are just two year guys...

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

The messaging of this is simple...it is quite NORMAL amongst the best in the league to be in that 62-69% range.

"Blindly yielding"? Kind of dramatic there Ty!

As for the table and the question, I'll leave that for someone else to guess. I do agree that very good QBs can have a completion % in the mid to high 60s.

Getting rid of the ball when no one is open is a good decision and a way to keep TOs down. This is an area where I've seen Love improve. (And CW of Chicago has a truly bad pass completion % on the surface, under 60 I think. But he got his team farther in the playoffs and he's very good out of the pocket. So I think to your point, looking at just one stat can be misleading.

Love threw some truly bad passes, resulting in game-killing INTs. While the numbers weren't huge - and I'm working from memory here, this happened late in playoff games. I seem to recall this ending a close playoff game with SF two years ago. Love threw a pass he simply didn't have to throw with downs and time left. The kicker also missed an easy FG as I recall, so the loss was certainly a team effort. Point being, they could have won that game if Love is more careful with the ball, and we have a better kicker.

Bottom line, and back to the original point, he's not making these mistakes anymore, or rarely. And the simple reason is that he's getting better, which is all I was trying to point out.

As for the kicking game, well it looks like we've regressed a few years. Another topic......

 

[Heyjoe4]

FTR, my biggest pet peeve whether discussing Packers, hunting, any sport or crocheting...anything...is stating things as fact when they are not. Opinions and facts are stated in very different ways. To me stating an opinion as fact is one of the most disengenious things someone can do to an honest conversation, whether I was right or not (doesn't matter) as to @adambr2 doing such, it doesn't justify my method of response and I for sure wish I'd handled it differently.

Such claims as I made, should be substantiated by citing past quotes or discussions, otherwise I'm just blowing smoke and no different than any of the other folks on the board that have drove us all crazy just throwing crap in the air with no evidence of a claim.

Adam claims he has never acted in a way which I eldued to, I'm going to take him at his word.




Oh man - I pray you see a day where a Packers loss can happen and you can literally be laughing within the hour with family, friends or wherever, cannot imagine it being that much of a mood impacter; I get it though, long time ago I was probably at that level as well or close.

Well said. Yeah no one should present opinion as fact, and most of the comments here are subjective. You do a better job then most (certainly better than me) at backing up what you say. I usually admit, as I just did above, when I'm working from memory, which is most of the time.

 

[tynimiller]

"Blindly yielding"? Kind of dramatic there Ty!

As for the table and the question, I'll leave that for someone else to guess. I do agree that very good QBs can have a completion % in the mid to high 60s.

Getting rid of the ball when no one is open is a good decision and a way to keep TOs down. This is an area where I've seen Love improve. (And CW of Chicago has a truly bad pass completion % on the surface, under 60 I think. But he got his team farther in the playoffs and he's very good out of the pocket. So I think to your point, looking at just one stat can be misleading.

Love threw some truly bad passes, resulting in game-killing INTs. While the numbers weren't huge - and I'm working from memory here, this happened late in playoff games. I seem to recall this ending a close playoff game with SF two years ago. Love threw a pass he simply didn't have to throw with downs and time left. The kicker also missed an easy FG as I recall, so the loss was certainly a team effort. Point being, they could have won that game if Love is more careful with the ball, and we have a better kicker.

Bottom line, and back to the original point, he's not making these mistakes anymore, or rarely. And the simple reason is that he's getting better, which is all I was trying to point out.

As for the kicking game, well it looks like we've regressed a few years. Another topic......

FTR My laugh response was for the opening line - nice!

 

[tynimiller]

Well said. Yeah no one should present opinion as fact, and most of the comments here are subjective. You do a better job then most (certainly better than me) at backing up what you say. I usually admit, as I just did above, when I'm working from memory, which is most of the time.

Disclaimers change the entire tone for me - and are appreciated!

 

[Heyjoe4]

Disclaimers change the entire tone for me - and are appreciated!

I don't think anyone here puts in the time you do on research and data gathering and presentation. That probably makes it harder when people position their opinions as facts. Well no, it's always hard when people phrase their opinions as facts. Thankfully, I don't think it happens much.

Anyway, most people on this forum mean well. We have our disagreements, and that's to be expected in an open and honest forum.

Hey off topic - I don't follow the combine but saw it on TV briefly at the gym this week or last. I saw a CB run a 4.28 and thought I saw the fastest 40 was 4.21. Just curious about the CB and who he might be (any ideas?) and if anyone has ever run under 4.20. (Speed is just one of many attributes in a successful NFL career. The 40 gets an inordinate amount of attention IMO, and I'm a good example!)

Thanks Ty.

 

[rmontro]

Anyway, most people on this forum mean well. We have our disagreements, and that's to be expected in an open and honest forum.

If everybody had the same opinions, it would be a pretty boring forum.

 

[tynimiller]

I don't think anyone here puts in the time you do on research and data gathering and presentation. That probably makes it harder when people position their opinions as facts. Well no, it's always hard when people phrase their opinions as facts. Thankfully, I don't think it happens much.

Anyway, most people on this forum mean well. We have our disagreements, and that's to be expected in an open and honest forum.

Hey off topic - I don't follow the combine but saw it on TV briefly at the gym this week or last. I saw a CB run a 4.28 and thought I saw the fastest 40 was 4.21. Just curious about the CB and who he might be (any ideas?) and if anyone has ever run under 4.20. (Speed is just one of many attributes in a successful NFL career. The 40 gets an inordinate amount of attention IMO, and I'm a good example!)

Thanks Ty.

Off hand it doesn’t jump to mind who did but I don’t think we had a 4.21 at this combine but maybe. Traveling now , will look when home

 

[SudsMcBucky]

Off hand it doesn’t jump to mind who did but I don’t think we had a 4.21 at this combine but maybe. Traveling now , will look when home

The 4.21 was the fastest ever, but it wasn't ran this year. That was in 2024 by Xavier Worthy.

 

[David Ciembronowicz]

Nearly every single metric you can use to measure a QB he belongs...the only people that don't think he should are typically the following 99% of the time:

- Bears Fan
- HATED us moving on from Rodgers
- Believes Gute/MLF/GB sucks purely because we haven't won a SB in the time frame they feel should have occurred = and therefore all sucks.

If you don't consider intangibles (the ability to put a team on his back and win or put them in position to win regularly), W-L, Division Championships, Conference championships (I wont go to SB), then Love does not belong in that tier. Stats may be 1st tier but should also be viewed over time, not one year.

 

[David Ciembronowicz]

Not a hater of anyone (as some may suggest) on this team but stats do tell a story, so does performance and Love's record as a starter is pedestrian at best; 27-20-1 with a 1-3 record in playoffs. That does not IMO put him in the top tier of QB's in the NFL, may be wrong but not at this point in his career.

 

[tynimiller]

If you don't consider intangibles (the ability to put a team on his back and win or put them in position to win regularly), W-L, Division Championships, Conference championships (I wont go to SB), then Love does not belong in that tier. Stats may be 1st tier but should also be viewed over time, not one year.

lol okay. Clearly you aren’t watching these games he has played. Check fourth quarter comebacks and then also add in the number of times even just last year that QB let his team on winning drive only to see FG unit miss or the other team than with next to no time beat his defense.

 

[OldSchool101]

FTR, my biggest pet peeve whether discussing Packers, hunting, any sport or crocheting...anything...is stating things as fact when they are not. Opinions and facts are stated in very different ways. To me stating an opinion as fact is one of the most disengenious things someone can do to an honest conversation, whether I was right or not (doesn't matter) as to @adambr2 doing such, it doesn't justify my method of response and I for sure wish I'd handled it differently.

Such claims as I made, should be substantiated by citing past quotes or discussions, otherwise I'm just blowing smoke and no different than any of the other folks on the board that have drove us all crazy just throwing crap in the air with no evidence of a claim.

Adam claims he has never acted in a way which I eldued to, I'm going to take him at his word.




Oh man - I pray you see a day where a Packers loss can happen and you can literally be laughing within the hour with family, friends or wherever, cannot imagine it being that much of a mood impacter; I get it though, long time ago I was probably at that level as well or close.

I once broke a remote in a Packers loss! Yet it was the 2014 Seattle Loss that really hit me. I asked the Lord why that game got so out of control for us because it was a shocking spiral.. but got no answer.
Until a few days later Mike McCarthys brother died on a Racketball court or something like that. THAT explained it all and I truly believe he wouldn’t have had time to grieve getting ready for a SB. His brother dying made me really think about what I value. That and one time my 7yr old asked me if I loved the Packers more than God? That one hit me pretty good.

There’s been a few posters I’ve wanted to choke down to the floor! But in reality it’s just a fun place to exchange thoughts with knowledgeable fans.

 

[milani]

I once broke a remote in a Packers loss! Yet it was the 2014 Seattle Loss that really hit me. I asked the Lord why that game got so out of control for us because it was a shocking spiral.. but got no answer.
Until a few days later Mike McCarthys brother died on a Racketball court or something like that. THAT explained it all and I truly believe he wouldn’t have had time to grieve getting ready for a SB. His brother dying made me really think about what I value. That and one time my 7yr old asked me if I loved the Packers more than God? That one hit me pretty good.

There’s been a few posters I’ve wanted to choke down to the floor! But in reality it’s just a fun place to exchange thoughts with knowledgeable fans.

The loss of his brother was horrific. Makes me think of Philbin losing his son. And the Favre losing his father. All at that time of the year. The loss of Harlan comes after a great tenure ended. But I also think of the Packers of 1960 who lost their unsung architect, Jack Vainisi, at 43 years old. He never got to see the team he was crafting for Vince reap those rewards as they went on to glory.

 

[adambr2]

The 4.21 was the fastest ever, but it wasn't ran this year. That was in 2024 by Xavier Worthy.

I was listening to a podcast the other day (I’m a huge dynasty fantasy football guy), and they were naming off a list of all the sub 4.33 WRs at the combine — it was a really sorry list.

Basically, the point was, track star speed has never really been any kind of translation to NFL success at the WR position.

Off topic, but responding to another point made in here, I don’t know about everyone else but I don’t ever intend to imply that my opinion is fact — unless I’m talking about something that can statically be proven or disproven:

Opinion - Matt Lafleur is a below average head coach.

Fact - Matt Lafleur is the longest tenured head coach in the NFL in his current position to never have reached a Super Bowl.

If it can’t be statically proven, I always imply that it’s my opinion. I can’t speak for everyone else but I never felt the need to disclaim that something that can’t be factually proven is anything other than an opinion — I thought that was implied.

 

[Heyjoe4]

The 4.21 was the fastest ever, but it wasn't ran this year. That was in 2024 by Xavier Worthy.

Thanks for the history Suds. I may have been looking at a list of "all time" fastest 40s at the combine.

 

[Heyjoe4]

If you don't consider intangibles (the ability to put a team on his back and win or put them in position to win regularly), W-L, Division Championships, Conference championships (I wont go to SB), then Love does not belong in that tier. Stats may be 1st tier but should also be viewed over time, not one year.

I agree with you. Otherwise you get Dan Marino and Jim Kelly. A lot of gaudy numbers but no hardware. Sorry but the hardware counts, a lot.

Love has to show he can carry a team in crunch time. Caleb Williams, in only his second year, has taken the team on his back on a number of occasions. In fairness, he doesn't have any hardware either.

 

[Heyjoe4]

I was listening to a podcast the other day (I’m a huge dynasty fantasy football guy), and they were naming off a list of all the sub 4.33 WRs at the combine — it was a really sorry list.

Basically, the point was, track star speed has never really been any kind of translation to NFL success at the WR position.

Off topic, but responding to another point made in here, I don’t know about everyone else but I don’t ever intend to imply that my opinion is fact — unless I’m talking about something that can statically be proven or disproven:

Opinion - Matt Lafleur is a below average head coach.

Fact - Matt Lafleur is the longest tenured head coach in the NFL in his current position to never have reached a Super Bowl.

If it can’t be statically proven, I always imply that it’s my opinion. I can’t speak for everyone else but I never felt the need to disclaim that something that can’t be factually proven is anything other than an opinion — I thought that was implied.

Agreed on both points.

Straight line speed would be important if WRs ran routes in straight lines. They usually don't.

This is mostly an opinion forum, and that disclaimer shouldn't have to be stated. You give a very good example of an opinion versus a fact. We should all be smart enough to figure that out, without being told.

 

[gopkrs]

I agree with you. Otherwise you get Dan Marino and Jim Kelly. A lot of gaudy numbers but no hardware. Sorry but the hardware counts, a lot.

Love has to show he can carry a team in crunch time. Caleb Williams, in only his second year, has taken the team on his back on a number of occasions. In fairness, he doesn't have any hardware either.

Then Love needs better than just a good Online. With a couple serviceable not developing, backups. He needs to feel comfortable and have that extra bit of time to see his running ops and/or a receiver to come open. Or time to throw it away. Start with his, to be long time center. Start the play off crisply. We have to be able to move the ball on a stud defense that will also blitz. That's how win in the 4th quarter imho.