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John Elway and how Packers OL limits victory

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by tjb_orlando, Jun 3, 2009.

  1. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    I always felt that John Elway was like a twelfth man on the field for the Broncos D. Other team's offensive planners had to factor in the danger that Elway posed, affecting the opponent's offensive game plan, making it more desperate. You want the opposing team's offense to feel desperate. Elway was that kind of player, in my view. Favre also.

    That is why I feel the Packers offensive line woes have been the real culprit limiting the number of wins that Packers have been able to take down. Forget about 2007, Favre's miraculous year, if you want. Even in 2007, but especially in 2005, 2006 and 2008, the OL has not been a reliable deadly weapon on:
    • winning 3rd and short
    • winning 4th and short
    • breaking the RBs into the secondary for long gainers
    • machine-like efficiency in fourth quarter
    For instance, when was the last time you saw the Packers OL really dominate the fourth quarter and crush the opposing DL?

    Or put it another way: how many times have you seen McCarthy call a slant to Driver on short yardage? Call me a 60s Neanderthal, but I would prefer to see the OL get the call, win that 1 yard TD on the ground and demoralize the opposing D.

    How does that relate to Elway?

    If the OL had the ability to win the 4th quarter, the DL collapses would be much more infrequent because
    • they would be off the field getting a breather and
    • the scoreboard would not be so precariously balanced on what A-Rod has to pull out of the proverbial hat.
    Once the Packers OL starts winning the fourth quarter on the ground, it will start affecting the first half offensive planning of the opposition in the next game -- e.g., air of desperation if you can't score multiple touchdowns in first half. Just like Elway-ispired desperation. Get into their heads.

    Just my opinion.
     
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  2. Veretax

    Veretax Cheesehead

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    Don't mind me, but I think that's a given in the WCO offense we run, not that I disagree that I'd like to see OL improvement I do.
     
  3. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    IMO like Veretax said, our offense is much more pass-oriented. Our oline isn't suppose to dominate in the running game.
    That being said, I totally agree with you, they were very inconsistent all those years. One play they look great, the next they look awful. And it doesn't seem that it'll improve this year, given the amount of rookies that'll take the field. They have talent, though...
    -
    Nice piece, BTW. Just one thing, you should be banned for using that broncos qb's name. Just kidding. But not really...
     
  4. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    Yeah, I know. Right after submitting the post, I had to slap myself right to SNAP OUT OF IT. :shok:

    About West Coast: even the 49ers had to get that short yardage first down or td.
     
  5. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    We don't have to go back too many years to remember when the Packers had that kind of dominating o-line. Mike Flangan at center, Marco Rivera & Mike Wahle at guards, Clifton & Tauscher as the tackles, Kevin Barry in the U package. The Packers have been struggling with issues up front since the day Rivera & Wahle left in free agency. Now Clifton is aging and Tauscher probably done with the knee injury. There's hope things will be better if guard Josh Sitton comes on this season and we get a competent right tackle out of Breno Giacomini, Allen Barbre or T.J. Lang. And if Clifton can hold up for one more season. This is the fourth season of Ted Thompson's rebuilding of the line and Mike McCarthy's introduction of the zone system, so this should be the time for the unit to get it together if it's going to happen. As the line from an old cigarette commercial put it; it's what's up front that counts.
     
  6. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    Four years of rebuilding, and all we get is a big fat MAYBE and a 6-10 record?

    BOO
     
  7. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    How soon we forget the 13-3 season and run to the NFC Championship Game just 18 months ago. For all the issues on the o-line that past couple of years, some things must have gone right if you look at how well the Packers have managed to do on offense thru this period; including last season.
     
  8. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    I know. But 13-3 is now an anomaly, not a trend. Losing is the trend, and it worries me.

    At the time, I chalked up the 13-3 season to McCarthy putting the clamps on Favre and coaching him up. I was really encouraged. But after last season, I am not so sure about Coacj McCarthy. Maybe it was just Favre having a miraculous year that cannot be explained.

    In any case, that 13-3 is the out-of-pattern datum now. I hope the Packers can light it up this year, of course, and if only Coach McCarthy would listen to us geniuses in the forum, they WOULD go 16-0!! :icon_lol:
    :icon_cool:
     
  9. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I'm sorry, NO. How did you come up with this? 4-12, 8-8, 13-3. That's improvement to me. 6-10 injury plagued year is the anormality in that. This year, actually, will set the tone as to which one is the odd year. But you just can't say 2007 was the odd year based on nothing. There are more indications as to 2008 being the anormality than to 2007...
     
  10. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    • 4-12
    • 8-8
    • 13-3 *winning*
    • 6-10
    That is one winning season out of four, an anomaly.

    But heck fire, maybe they can BOLT it up this season: blocking, tackling and taking heads off QBs. :thumbsup:
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    Back to the o-line issue: The Packers have had a thousand yard runningback 2 of last 3 years and were only 50 yds. from one in '07. The number of sacks taken for the number of times passing over the past several seasons isn't terribly high either. The Packers have managed to rank in the top ten to top five in offense over this period. Indications that the line has been doing something. As for the drop last year: Half the teams that make the playoffs in one season don't do it again the next. The Pack wasn't the only club to have a fall=off last season. Look at Seattle, Jacksonville, Dallas, Tampa Bay, Washington. Baltimore has been a roller coaster team the last 3 years; two big winning, playoff seasons sandwiched around a loser. What's happened with the Packers over the last 4 seasons is more in line with what generally goes on around the modern NFL. The anomaly was more the 6 and 4 year playoff runs of '93-98 & '01-'04. Only a handful of clubs can claim that kind of consistency.
     
  12. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    I know, but how many times did the Packers stall when they could not get 3rd-and-1 or 4th-and-1 on the ground? How many times did the offensive line PWN the opposing DL in the 4th quarter?

    That is what I want to see, even though I also like seeing the 1000 yard RB.
     
  13. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Yes, you're right. It was the odd year in therms of winning record. But you got to see the whole picture. How where the years before MM? How was the roster? Was it a young, promising one? A Proven, in the prime? Or an old roster in decline, so we had to rebuild?
    It's like when you say the Oline is struggling. Our offense is a top 5. And you can't achieve that with a bad Oline.
    But if you look at it, they failed on crucial times, and that don't come up in the normal statistics...
     
  14. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    yup

    As to (a): Many others outside GB, scouts etc., still question the inner OL.

    As to (b): "failure at crucial times" is what we want to OTHER guys to experience, such as when they defend against Packers at a crucial short yardage attempt or when they get ground into a grease slick in the crucial time otherwise known as the fourth quarter.

    All I am gonna say is they better KICK BOOTY this season, and if so, I will be the first to accept your personal apology. :icon_cool:
     
  15. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    This sucks. I am still a "cheerleader" in this forum! DANG! This is worse than Uncle Rico eating all the steaks.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  16. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Personal apology was funny. Others saying that they question the interior of the Oline isn't a statistical record, btw...
    Our line will improve, maybe not this year, but 2 years from now it'll be a kickass line. But it'll NEVER be a dominating line like we had with Sherman. MM focus 90% on ZBS. Not only that, we play a pass-oriented west coast offense (sound redundant, but the queens play a more run-oriented west coast offense, if that's even possible). So the line you want to see sadly won't be possible. I myself am a fan of the smashmouth football, but you can't argue with the offensive sucess of our team. If the D can catch up, even with Oline struggles, we will be a though team to beat...
     
  17. Packerlifer

    Packerlifer Cheesehead

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    In discussin the o-line last year let's not forget that Scott Wells was affected by a lower trunk back injury all season, Josh Sitton was set back by a late preseason knee injury, Chad Clifton's knees were giving out and Mark Tauscher late blew out his. The Packers were not a healthy group in '08.
     
  18. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    Davis

    1. That is TOO freaking long. Sorry. We have been hearing that for several years now, and they never seem to get any closer.
    2. I don't like contradicting you, but: if zone blocking cannot give you a dominating run game, then explain Terrell Davis taking down the Packers in the SB.
    3. My point is that it should work the other way: a dominating OL can make D inadequacy less of a disaster. It is a proven concept of 4th quarter pro football strategy.
    By the way, you risk offending Edgar Bennett by opposing my arguments. Remember, he can still suit up any Sunday if necessary, take a few handoffs, cross the goal line, then keep on running and run over a few disbelievers at the drop of a hat. ::biggrin:
     
  19. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    We focused on other, more pressing issues than Oline. Our interior will be great this year, IMO. But our tackles got older, so it'll take a while to replace them. that's natural.
    I never said our running game would not be dominating because of the ZBS ALONE. But that added with the west coast and a passing ladden offense, won't make it a dominating Oline. And if you look at that dreadful SB game, the line didn't overpower us the whole game. That's the way the ZBS works. It's more about correct placemant and motion than it is about pure strenght. If the ZBS couldn't provide a solid running game, than it wouldn't be used. But IMO it cannot provide a dominating, Hogs like Oline.
    Look at Steelers last year. their D carried their poor oline. We won't have that D, but our Offense is miles better, so we don't need that D. And our Oline is better than theirs. Let's be real, our Oline is good. It's not elite, it's not awful. It's good, good enough for a balanced team, which we seem to be.
    I wish he would, but I still have faith in Grant. I think with the addition of Quinn Johnson, with our Oline being healthy, and with him being healthy and not missing practice, he'll have a 1500+ 10+ touchdown year. With all that problems, he still had 1,203 and 4, so it's not that big of a stretch...
     
  20. tjb_orlando

    tjb_orlando Cheesehead

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    Until then, I will accept his young grasshoppers, personally trained by Edgar, especially when they break a long one.:smile3:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    :victory:
     

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