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Idea for defense.

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Eli Haugen, Mar 31, 2015.

  1. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    Using the talent you have, and drafting the BPA. Its hard to do when you have to fit into a pattern. We are a 3-4. We need ILB, NT, CB. OK what if theres a future all-pro available, but its not a position of need? many here seem to think that we would never draft a WR, RB, or even a Safety, with Burnett, Dix,and our hybrid Hyde. But here I am looking at this Alabama safety Collins.... We dont need him. I understand. But for arguments sake, lets consider what we could do if we were forced to have another great young safety on the roster right now...

    For my own mental stability. Im going to say Guion and Raji are both signed, making NT a secondary priority... CB position is ok, but needs the next generation drafted for depth...

    So we have 6 in secondary. 2 good corners playing man on their two best receivers. Then we have 4 safetys that can tackle and cover...

    OK lets step back a second. When Capers was a young buck, back in Pittsburg, helping invent the 3-4 defense. They used more LB speed, to rush the passer. And used the LBs as pass rushers, as a plan rather than a random blitz... To do it you need a great D-line where 3 guys can basicly hold their own against 5. Then a complex mix of zone coverages to fill in the holes the 3-4 has. The pass rush, and flexability make the 3-4 the defense of choice 20 years later...

    So take it a step further. You are facing an increased pass attack now days. Diversity in the pass rush, and creative confusing formations are a must if you want to be sucessful. We are very good at mixing it up that way. So lets say we give our safetys the job of rushing the passer??? More speed, and trickery. Having a powerful, lock down secondary that can cover and tackle is the only thing that seems to get to a All-Pro QB like Rodgers. Legion of boom shuts downreceivers, allowing the pass rush to do its job. They also help in run support alot. Its possible to win many ways.

    Now Im not trying to take credit for inventing the dime. And Im not saying our current roster makes sense to drop down to 2 LBs. Even if those two are Mathews and Peppers. But figure we could have Raji, Guion, and Daniels up front. Mathews and Peppers standing tall, eye to eye with the QB. and a swarm of shifty scrappy secondary, overpowering pass attacks, and stinging the QB from every direction.

    So seriously. Cam Chancelor gets dropped and signs to GB for league minimum... Do you sit Burnett, Dix, Hyde to play him??? I dont know? I say put him in there, and comensate the pass rush with some extra blitzing from the secondary.

    If the GB brass wanted to try, they have the right Def Coordinator for the job...
     
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  2. Carl

    Carl Cheesehead

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    A blitzing seconary cannot be the primary way to rush the passer. Offense would soon catch on and the offensive linemen would have no problem picking up the smaller secondary players who do not excel in pass rush.
     
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  3. Eli Haugen

    Eli Haugen Cheesehead

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    True... But consider the secondary can have better angles of attack, and better speed... As with anything, its a give and take. More speed, vs more power. the best approach is being balanced. Im sure. But I believe it rings true that if you can be the first to do something that works. You tend to have great success until the league catches up. Most every defense has been built and designed to stop traditional offenses... But in recent years its become a pass happy league. Is it possible that there is a better defense than the 3-4, to stop a passing team? We may need to wait 20 years to find one. But im sure one exists...

    In todays NFL, you dont line up in one formation all the time. You dont go to the line with only one play option. Personel changes. Defenses to match what offenses are doing... This argument is basicly, could we build the best dime defense in the league, and make it work for a large percentage of play calls on defense? smother the pass, and use aggressive safetys more.

    Swarm.
     
  4. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Dom Capers did not help invent the 3-4 defense and Pittsburgh was hardly the first to use it.

    Bud Wilkinson is frequently credited with inventing the 3-4 at Oklahoma in the 1940's. Several NFL teams dabbled with it over the years. Joe Collier's Orange Crush defense in the late 70's is generally credited to be the first 3-4 defense in the NFL that was used as the primary scheme.
     
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  5. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Capers (coordinator) and Lebeau (secondary) are the guys who "invented" the zone-blitz 3-4 in Pittsburg.

    If I recall correctly, they didn't have particularly good pass rushers, so they had to get cute and manufacture pressure. This was done mostly by confusion and messing with pre-snap reads. Dropping the NT into the hook zone to help cover the blitzing ILBs, being the common example.
     
  6. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    I have great ideas for improving the defense that don't involve scheme changes:
    1. Stop spending high draft picks on defensive linemen who are terrible (Instead, draft linemen who can actually play the position);
    2. Acquire players who can actually play inside linebacker instead of plugging in "guys" who can't play the run or cover tight ends.
     
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  7. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    They did not invent the zone blitz either, but they did use it for the reasons you describe. The object was disguise. The lineman would drop into a short timing pass lane where the QB would not be expecting a defender to appear. It was originally designed to defend the West Coast offense.

    Here's an example of the concept that should be familiar to Packer fans, involving a corner blitz:



    Capers rarely drops linemen these days. We see it maybe once per game on average over the course of a season.

    What you're more likely to see from the Packers is another version of the zone blitz that Capers also used in Pittsburgh featuring Rod Woodson when he played corner. The alignment gave the QB a blitz read and encouraged the quick out throw to the side of the blitz. Woodson would jump the route with safety help up top. Capers didn't invent this technique either. But I expect to see a fair amount of it with the ball hawking Hayward at cover corner.
     
  8. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    We had a coordinator circa 2004, Bob Slowik, who invented the 'blitz 11 and pray you can get there before the pass gets away' defense.
     
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  9. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    If you truly believe you have a future HOFer on the board you draft him, position be damned. QB might be the only position I would say dont do that.
     
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  10. Bagadeez04

    Bagadeez04 Cheesehead

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    I think Thompson would go with bpa if the valueof the player is high enough, regardless of position.
     
  11. Luca

    Luca Cheesehead

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    First of all, I think it is highly unlikely that Collins drops to 30. Moreover we have bigger needs than S, so hopefully we can match value and need. But if Collins drops, and if he is the best-value-available,* I would take him!

    * the player that will contribute the most to the long term success of the Packers, very likely but not necessarily the best player available.

    As long as two of those safeties can play well in the slot, it can work. But it's nothing new, it's just a big dime. The concept is similar to the big nickel that that several teams use.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...kage-emerging-as-nfls-hottest-defensive-trend

    This might work in Madden, but not in the NFL. At least, not on a consistent basis. If you overdo it, other teams will expect it and exploit it (they watch film). The best pressure, is consistent pressure up front.
     
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  12. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    This reminds me of the year after the 4th and 26 play when Donatell got fired and Jim Bates replaced him. I have no idea what our defense was, just that we were going to attack on every play, blitz from every angle, and smother the offenses. It didn't work out so well for us.
     
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  13. captainWIMM

    captainWIMM Cheesehead

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    If I remember correctly that kind of defense didnĀ“t work out that well for the Packers.
     
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  14. Mondio

    Mondio Cheesehead

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    Oh man, that's who I was talking about in my previous post. I made a few mistakes. I didn't read the thread and then posted before I fully woke up.

    So disregard my previous post, it's crap. thankfully the captain quoted adam and I could see my folly :)
     
  15. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Nobody believes they have that at the #30 pick. There are far too many variables to make that kind of assessment. A scout writing that in a report will be laughed out of the room.

    The average NFL career among guys making an opening day roster is 6 years according to the league office as of the last CBA negotiation. Over the course of 6 years, there are 174 draft choice above the #30 pick. That's not even a Pro Bowl projection, let alone HOF. If you get a core 3-down player out of the #30 spot, you've won. Everything else is gravy.

    The last player to be drafted with a consensus HOF possibility (not probability) was Andrew Luck, being widely regarded as the best QB coming out over a 10 year period. They don't come around very often, even with the #1 pick.
     
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  16. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Obviously if it's a consensus the player is going top 3.

    Actually last year there seemed to be a consensus that the 1st overall pick had the potential to be a hof player.

    I must have missed the part where I specified it only applies to Ted and only this year. GMs fall in love with someone in the draft all the time.
     
  17. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    If you think Thompson was or will be sitting in a room saying that Derek Sherrod or Nick Perry or Datone Jones or anybody he projects for #30 is a potential HOFer you'd be sorely mistaken. Otherwise we'd have to assume Thompson is detached from reality.

    Nobody in their right mind is sitting around right now saying Winston is a potential HOFer, but he's the likely #1.
     
  18. PackerDNA

    PackerDNA Cheesehead

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    The draft- specifically how it's prepared for- is much advanced over where it was in the old days.
    But in many ways it's still a crap shoot.
    I have zero doubt that TT and his staff will do their absolute best in research and selection of players in the draft. How those picks will turn out is an unknown.
     
  19. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I missed where I made either claim but hey if you want to argue about nothing I'll grab some popcorn
     
  20. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I reread your posts, and I make no apology for your inarticulateness and muddy thinking.
     
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  21. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    That would be like me apologizing for your ignorance
     
  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    What happened to that popcorn?
     
  23. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    you can't smell it?
     
  24. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    I smell something and ain't popcorn. ;)
     
  25. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see us go back to more physical bump and run coverage. The Packers play way to much zone for my liking. Were a little small at corner but I think the new breed of corner is a big guy with ball skills and is physical . I think TT should target at least one of these type of player. I'd like to see the packers play a more physical style of football on defense.

    A lot of you guys fall in love with forty times but if you get physical with a guy at the LOS you never allow that much seperation to even happen for it to matter how fast you are. When I watch us on defense I see a Finesse team...when I watch the Jets, And Sea hawks I see teams who make it a point to try to punish rbs and wrs. We need to get that mentality and that comes from the guy calling the defense and drafting that type of player.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
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