How about a "traditional" 3-4?

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HardRightEdge

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Lost me?

I thought you were blaming Capers for the def line not performing?

My stance is this...

No matter what the scheme is, if def line cant not get off their blocks, to me that means lack of talent..so thats on Ted not Capers..

Same as if the q/b cant make those throws, it isnt because of his coach, it is because he doesnt have the arm to do it...That would fall on Ted
I might agree with that if I thought Capers had no input into the player selection. It was Capers who said two years ago that he wanted more "length". That got translated into Datone Jones and Julius Peppers. It was Capers who said during this last off season that a defense is built around at least 3 play makers...Shields got a generous contract and Peppers was signed to go with Matthews.

I regard this defense as an organizational failure, but to be this bad in the front 7 and to see the whole functioning as less than the sum of the parts has to fall on the coaching. Besides, Thompson just signed an extension. Change for change sake, which may be the only course of action to bring a different dynamic, would need to fall on Capers.
 

melvin dangerr

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I'd like to see more of a traditional 3-4 more...at least to start the game. It will mean less nickle but teams are running wild vs the look that we are currently playing. I'd like to see 4 lbs, 3 DL, 2 cbs, and 2 safeties. Why capers played with two DL when they were hashing us is beyond me smh. They were running right up the middle but that's not that hard when you just have to block two down linemen. Do that and you're already on the second level where Forte lived yesterday. Our DBS are already suspect tacklers and I'd rather not see any of them trying to make tackles 7 yds down field. I understand using nickle to help against the pass but Findca lb who can cover the tightend then you dont need to use as mych nickle as we do and you have that extra big body on the field to help against the run vs 185 pound Casey Hayward trying to help in run support. I'd personally rather give up a few pass plays then get gashed on the ground.
I agree with what you said but the DB's are not suspect they are flat out slap tacklers and push tacklers, should have them practice on slippery logs...
 
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rodell330

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my question..We have Suh and Fairley ( they replace whom ever you want replaced, just those moves, nothing else.

Is the defense better

Heck yes it is. I think it's time for some new blood at DC but I've always said TT hasn't done a good job in putting the pieces in place on defense. He stinks when it comes to drafting on defense and the proof is in the pudding.
 

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To steal a line from Moneyball, the front 7 is an island of misfit toys, but in this case the whole is less than the sum of the parts. It is an organizational failure several years in the making.

While your suggestion probably couldn't be worse than what we've seen against the run, we need to be reminded that the opponent does not provide their play in advance. The idea of having to rush the passer with P, G and D together is not a promising notion.

We did not bring back Pickett for this reason...his pass rushing ability, which was not bad in the early years, had degraded to zero. A team can get away with a player like that if he's surrounded by pass rushing talent...we're not that team.

The weakest link is Guion unless and until he gets over whatever ails him, if anything. In the meantime, Pennel has to play whether he's ready or not.

Yeah, if you watch Guion's tape last year he got pushed all over the field at times. I am afraid he might be one of these guys that looks the part but isn't the part. We bought a corvette with no engine and that's why we got him for a fiat price. I think the goal if I remember was to run "less scheme" and with Raji in there they thought they could pull this 2-4 look off. Don't you think this whole thing was way to risky to on Raji handling the middle?

I think now you have to run more scheme and then the guessing game starts. I still think on 3rd and passing downs you can go 2-4 and bring Dantone Jones in to help with the pass rush and run some of the stuff there running now.

I couldn't agree with you more about this "misfit of toys" as a friend asked me what is wrong with the Packers D. I'm like do you have a several hours. It's just been made way to complex it can cause a headache. I'm schemed out.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Yeah, if you watch Guion's tape last year he got pushed all over the field at times. I am afraid he might be one of these guys that looks the part but isn't the part. We bought a corvette with no engine. I think the goal if I remember was to run "less scheme" and with Raji in there they thought they could pull this 2-4 look off. Don't you think this whole thing was way to risky to on Raji handling the middle?

I think now you have to run more scheme and then the guessing game starts. I still think on 3rd and passing downs you can go 2-4 and bring Dantone Jones in to help with the pass rush and run some of the stuff there running now.

I couldn't agree with you more about this "misfit of toys" as a friend asked me what is wrong with the Packers D. I'm like do you have a several hours. It's just been made way to complex it can cause a headache. I'm schemed out.
I believe the stated plan was "more scheme" variations, but with specific players matched to the variations resulting in more rotation combos. What that means is the big picture resides in Capers head alone. Well, maybe Hawk grasps it, but that's about it. The players are pieces in a complicated multi-variable equation which is why they look so incohesive and identity-less.

Capers (1) feet have lifted fully off the ground, (2) he's fallen down the rabbit hole or (3) and he's way too much inside his own head. Choose your favorite metaphor.
 

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Pass rush and run stuffing are two different issues. I would agree we lack any decent and consistent pass rush.

Regarding stopping the run, I've been keying on this all year and I don't think it's scheme. More often than not we have a LB in position to make a play and he just fails. Sometimes it's a missed tackle but more often it's just not getting up field and in position. I said it in another thread. This is not a case of O-lineman getting to the second level too often and too easily.
 

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I believe the stated plan was "more scheme" variations, but with specific players matched to the variations resulting in more rotation combos. What that means is the big picture resides in Capers head alone. Well, maybe Hawk grasps it, but that's about it. The players are pieces in a complicated multi-variable equation which is why they look so incohesive and identity-less.

Capers (1) feet have lifted fully off the ground, (2) he's fallen down the rabbit hole or (3) and he's way too much inside his own head. Choose your favorite metaphor.

Well less scheme or more scheme or whatever I agree that these guys look like they might thinking about what to do out there rather then just making a read and playing.
 

brandon2348

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Pass rush and run stuffing are two different issues. I would agree we lack any decent and consistent pass rush.

Regarding stopping the run, I've been keying on this all year and I don't think it's scheme. More often than not we have a LB in position to make a play and he just fails. Sometimes it's a missed tackle but more often it's just not getting up field and in position. I said it in another thread. This is not a case of O-lineman getting to the second level too often and too easily.

IMO were seeing a combination of scheme break down and lack of production from players, mostly upfront and in the middle. The middle of this defense has been a problem for quite some time now.

Capers can get his sharpie out and draw scheme up all day long and to try to hide it. Problem is everybody knows.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Pass rush and run stuffing are two different issues. I would agree we lack any decent and consistent pass rush.

Regarding stopping the run, I've been keying on this all year and I don't think it's scheme. More often than not we have a LB in position to make a play and he just fails. Sometimes it's a missed tackle but more often it's just not getting up field and in position. I said it in another thread. This is not a case of O-lineman getting to the second level too often and too easily.
I agree that the LBs seem out of position to make the play, but some consideration should be given to whether the scheme has something to do with that. There must be a lot of brain gears grinding out there.

On the talent side, Hawk is who he is...he's not going to blow up or stand up anybody. He looks like the converted 4-3 OLB that he has always looked like since Capers came in. On the other hand, Lattimore has an enthusiasm for hitting people and the game in general and he makes some nice plays when the flow is away from him. But he gets fooled by misdirection and when the run comes at him he's often playing to the wrong gap. He's not showing himself to be a particularly instinctual player; it is difficult to tell if that's an innate problem, too much thinking in this multi-scheme, or not enough thinking with his youthful over-enthusiasm taking over (read: "squirrel!"). Brad Jones is just soft.

It does not help when the tackles get blown off the line with this level of frequency...that will mess with your your gap positioning.

I would also question whether run stuffing and pass rushing are in fact two different things. Teams throw against base and they certainly relish running against nickel, two down linemen, 2-5, elephant-3-men-down, or whatever we're calling these things these days that are run 2/3 of the time.

On one thing we should all agree...it's a hot mess redeemed by the kindness of opposing QBs, opposing receivers blowing routes, expiring game clocks, Hyde's jersey and other matters of serendipity.
 
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HardRightEdge

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IMO were seeing a combination of scheme break down and lack of production from players, mostly upfront and in the middle. The middle of this defense has been a problem for quite some time now.

Capers can get his sharpie out and draw scheme up all day long and to try to hide it. Problem is everybody knows.
My general life experience tells me intractable problems are intractable because there are multiple causes. There's no reason not to think the problems stem from talent, mismatch of talent to scheme, and the scheme itself.

When multiple variables are changed simultaneously (as has been the case with this front 7 multi-scheme and mix-and-match rotation groupings) and things go badly it becomes very difficult to pinpoint specific causes.

One supposes there's time for Capers to crawl out of the rabbit hole and pull that rabbit out of his hat, but the history of recent years says "not likely". It can get better, one also supposes, because this front 7 play can't get much worse.
 

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Well less scheme or more scheme or whatever I agree that these guys look like they might thinking about what to do out there rather then just making a read and playing.


IMO were seeing a combination of scheme break down and lack of production from players, mostly upfront and in the middle. The middle of this defense has been a problem for quite some time now.

Capers can get his sharpie out and draw scheme up all day long and to try to hide it. Problem is everybody knows.

I don't know if it's coaching the scheme or the scheme itself or the players ....but what I keep seeing is LB and in some cases safeties and corners that are just not getting up into holes and making plays. I see it time and again where it's clear in the replay that our line did their part and the back is coming thru and we have a defender standing flat footed or going sideline to sideline. It's exactly what one of the color guys said in the game Sunday.

There was a play at the goal line against the Lions that made me scream. You are on the goal line. It does you ZERO GOOD to stand in the endzone. You see a hole opening up in front of you. There is ONE LANE for a back to run thru...and you stand in the endzone and watch him run thru it!? That's the crap that is really messed up.
 

brandon2348

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I don't know if it's coaching the scheme or the scheme itself or the players ....but what I keep seeing is LB and in some cases safeties and corners that are just not getting up into holes and making plays. I see it time and again where it's clear in the replay that our line did their part and the back is coming thru and we have a defender standing flat footed or going sideline to sideline. It's exactly what one of the color guys said in the game Sunday.

There was a play at the goal line against the Lions that made me scream. You are on the goal line. It does you ZERO GOOD to stand in the endzone. You see a hole opening up in front of you. There is ONE LANE for a back to run thru...and you stand in the endzone and watch him run thru it!? That's the crap that is really messed up.

Your preaching to the choir. I am still shaking my head over the Burnett deal and I wanted them to trade up and get Mosley. Were only 2-3 guys away IMO from this "science project capers D" actually working but then even if you get the needed guys missing and a key guy goes down to injury then what? It's really frustrating.

I am trying to stay focused on 2014 but I can't stop eyeballing "Denzel Perryman". But even with Perryman your gonna need a "wrecking ball" D-tackle like Suh to make this 2-4 work IMO. I am not sold it even would of worked with Raji.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I don't know if it's coaching the scheme or the scheme itself or the players ....but what I keep seeing is LB and in some cases safeties and corners that are just not getting up into holes and making plays. I see it time and again where it's clear in the replay that our line did their part and the back is coming thru and we have a defender standing flat footed or going sideline to sideline. It's exactly what one of the color guys said in the game Sunday.

There was a play at the goal line against the Lions that made me scream. You are on the goal line. It does you ZERO GOOD to stand in the endzone. You see a hole opening up in front of you. There is ONE LANE for a back to run thru...and you stand in the endzone and watch him run thru it!? That's the crap that is really messed up.
So, are guys not in the right place because they're bad football players or because they're not sure what they're supposed to be doing or, equally important, they're not confident in what the other guys around them are doing.

As far getting to the right gap, that's clearly a problem. But it is compounded by the D-Line not getting penetration. When you're playing behind Guion when he's getting blown off the line or Jones getting manhandled, it can become an "oh, sh*t" moment for the guys behind them.

That's not to excuse the lack of toughness in the middle of the field, a problem not addressed since the losses of Bishop and Collins. When the only guy you notice coming up to the line to make nice plays in run support is Dix, you know you have a problem.

The starting point to unravel this mess is the D-Line...starting with Pennel, even if he's not sure yet what he's doing, in for Guion. Pennel can hold the point and get some penetration; the job is not that complicated. I say this because the usual suspects in run support are are mostly the same guys doing it last year, and they never looked this bad (as hard as that is to fathom). It's just a starting point...one variable to be tested in the base defense. It will be a long process.
 
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brandon2348

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Let's just call it what it is which is a "Mickey Mouse defense" operated by "smoke and mirrors" that is going to have to get turnovers to succeed.

I said before the season I wanted Vince to smile about this defense and I am pretty sure he isn't at this point.
 
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Yeah, if you watch Guion's tape last year he got pushed all over the field at times. I am afraid he might be one of these guys that looks the part but isn't the part. We bought a corvette with no engine and that's why we got him for a fiat price. I think the goal if I remember was to run "less scheme" and with Raji in there they thought they could pull this 2-4 look off. Don't you think this whole thing was way to risky to on Raji handling the middle?

I think now you have to run more scheme and then the guessing game starts. I still think on 3rd and passing downs you can go 2-4 and bring Dantone Jones in to help with the pass rush and run some of the stuff there running now.

I couldn't agree with you more about this "misfit of toys" as a friend asked me what is wrong with the Packers D. I'm like do you have a several hours. It's justbeen made way to complex it can cause a headache. I'm schemed out.
This overhauling what I refer to as the "nucleus" of our D sounds like the D p version of what transpired at QB last year. We had no contingency plan. We lost 3 starting D lineman and years of experience almost overnight. We need to practice prudence more often. These knee jerk reactions in response to a catastrophic failure at D front 7 IMO don't work.
 

brandon2348

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This overhauling what I refer to as the "nucleus" of our D sounds like the D p version of what transpired at QB last year. We had no contingency plan. We lost 3 starting D lineman and years of experience almost overnight. We need to practice prudence more often. These knee jerk reactions in response to a catastrophic failure at D front 7 IMO don't work.

I would't call it a knee jerk reaction. We have been getting pushed around up front for awhile now. Like "years." Our run defense has been near the bottom of the league and is heading in the wrong direction.

2011-14th,
2012 -17th
2013-24th,
2014-32nd

Once again I don't see a knee jerk reaction here. I see something going in the wrong direction.
I wish it was a knee jerk reaction.
 
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I would't call it a knee jerk reaction. We have been getting pushed around up front for awhile now. Like "years." Our run defense has been near the bottom of the league and is heading in the wrong direction.

2011-14th,
2012 -17th
2013-24th,
2014-32nd

Once again I don't see a knee jerk reaction here. I see something going in the wrong direction.
I wish it was a knee jerk reaction.
I meant specifically the decision to eliminate 2 serviceable lineman. I'm exaggerating with the terminology. But don't you think the decision was a bit hasty?
 
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HardRightEdge

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This overhauling what I refer to as the "nucleus" of our D sounds like the D p version of what transpired at QB last year. We had no contingency plan. We lost 3 starting D lineman and years of experience almost overnight. We need to practice prudence more often. These knee jerk reactions in response to a catastrophic failure at D front 7 IMO don't work.
Which knee jerk reactions? I'm not following your fuzzy logic.

Edit: Strike that. I see you clarified above.
 

brandon2348

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P

Pick n Jolly.

They wanted to get more athletic and faster up front while getting younger. Pick will be 35 in a couple weeks and Jolly just had neck surgery. I would not consider either a long term answer. Could we of kept em around I guess but they don't really fit schematcially into what Capers is trying to do. Don't get me wrong Pick gave us some good years but I think it was time to move on.

The last thing we need is to get slower. If your asking if we had those guys would we be better? I don't think so.

EDIT: It's like talking about recycling junk or trading broken cars.
 
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They wanted to get more athletic and faster up front while getting younger. Pick will be 35 in a couple weeks and Jolly just had neck surgery. I would not consider either a long term answer. Could we of kept em around I guess but they don't really fit schematcially into what Capers is trying to do. Don't get me wrong Pick gave us some good years but I think it was time to move on.

The last thing we need is to get slower. If your asking if we had those guys would we be better? I don't think so.

EDIT: It's like talking about recycling junk or trading broken cars.
I'll admit it slipped my mind about the injury. So much focus on Jermichael I think. The problem is. We look worse than substandard. Embarrassing Run D
 
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rodell330

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If Aaron Rodgers played for San Francisco or instead of Kaeper**** he'd have 3 or 4 rings by now I can almost guarantee that. Instead he's stuck on a team who seems to only win if he lights it up every week. Defense hasn't done there part in a loooong time and TT is just as much to blame than Capers. Capers should've been gone two yrs ago and TT should've drafted better on that side of the ball PERIOD. Now we have to go through another yr of watching arguably the best qb in the game play with a bad defense..and I don't want to hear it's only week 5 they will get better because they won't....they havnt.
 

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Heck yes it is. I think it's time for some new blood at DC but I've always said TT hasn't done a good job in putting the pieces in place on defense. He stinks when it comes to drafting on defense and the proof is in the pudding.

If def is better with only two diff d-lineman, then must mean Dom is not really to blame. Yet every week it is fire dom..

Ted has had major faults at getting def lineman.
 

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I might agree with that if I thought Capers had no input into the player selection. It was Capers who said two years ago that he wanted more "length". That got translated into Datone Jones and Julius Peppers. It was Capers who said during this last off season that a defense is built around at least 3 play makers...Shields got a generous contract and Peppers was signed to go with Matthews.

I regard this defense as an organizational failure, but to be this bad in the front 7 and to see the whole functioning as less than the sum of the parts has to fall on the coaching. Besides, Thompson just signed an extension. Change for change sake, which may be the only course of action to bring a different dynamic, would need to fall on Capers.


Ted has to give the coach lemons, to make lemonade..Some coaches can get players to perform, but those players have to have talent there somewhere..I dont believe the def line has the talent that we need

Woody, Nick and Jenkins---when there our def was great...Soon as they were gone, thats when the wheels really started to fall off..
 

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