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How about a "traditional" 3-4?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by rodell330, Sep 29, 2014.

  1. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see more of a traditional 3-4 more...at least to start the game. It will mean less nickle but teams are running wild vs the look that we are currently playing. I'd like to see 4 lbs, 3 DL, 2 cbs, and 2 safeties. Why capers played with two DL when they were hashing us is beyond me smh. They were running right up the middle but that's not that hard when you just have to block two down linemen. Do that and you're already on the second level where Forte lived yesterday. Our DBS are already suspect tacklers and I'd rather not see any of them trying to make tackles 7 yds down field. I understand using nickle to help against the pass but Findca lb who can cover the tightend then you dont need to use as mych nickle as we do and you have that extra big body on the field to help against the run vs 185 pound Casey Hayward trying to help in run support. I'd personally rather give up a few pass plays then get gashed on the ground.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Cheddar2014

    Cheddar2014 Cheesehead

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    The 2-4-5 hasn't worked yet and I don't get the "innovative" scheme that's employed. Guess it all comes down to personnel. Clay's not effective without a down lineman creating some push on his side. Basically we have a linebacker rushing from each end and the guys may be quick but not big enough to collapse a pocket tho at times they do beat their man. In our zeal to get younger and faster, we fail at the first line of defense. Capers had some great defenses in the past, but with the way the game has changed and his focus on stopping the pass I think that he has lost the basic...strong rush/line helps the secondary more than more coverage personnel.

    With the return to the pass attack yesterday, we will score a lot of points but will also give up a lot.

    Here's to last one with the ball...
     
  3. red4tribe

    red4tribe Cheesehead

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    To be honest I don't even know what we are running out there anymore. We had two DT's and one DE yesterday in a supposedly 3-4 defense.
     
  4. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    First of all thank you Jesus ! Big win!!
    We are lucky they scored just 17 pts. We just got gashed in the running game. Capers can run whatever he wants.a 3-4, a 4-3 a 2-5, a 1-6.. I don't care what Capers calls it it ain't workin'. By now we've all heard the definition of insanity and I am not confused when I say we cannot sustain a Championship run without fixing this issue and fixing it soon. I will say on a positive note .. Our pass Defense is improved notably.
     
  5. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Well we don't necessarily need to go 3-4 but atleast get bigger inside on the 24 and 25 defenses. Also kick Peppers/Neal inside more often on those allignments.
     
  6. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I'd like to see more peppers and
    Clay on the same side. Yesterday they pretty much lined up on opposite sides and neither was really able to win their 1 on 1 matchups which is surprising and worries me because at least one of these 2 should command a double team at their salary but the Bears were able to block them straight up. I remember during a segment with Merrill hodge he said peppers was an early candidate for DPOY but not the way he played yesterday. Idk if capers is just to old and has no imagination anymore? but there are so many things you can do with
    Peppers and Matthews as individuals but on the same team? Both of them should have way more impact on games.
     
  7. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    Rodell, the Bears were using a lot of quick hitters over the middle, which were there all day because our light Dline allignments forced the ILBs to play run every snap. It's also tough to generate a rush on the edge on that cow patch. If you try an aggressive jet pass rush you'll likely lose your feet.
     
  8. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I was thinking the same thing. You can't have 285 lb guys constantly inside trying to defend the run when you play a 3-4. We only saw Hawks helmet fly off about 10 times because he was having to make tackles 7-8 yds downfield. That's not the purpose of a 3-4, and that's why you need some big nasties so that Hawk and Lattimore can make those tackles between 1-2 yds and even for a loss once and a while.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2014
  9. Cheddar2014

    Cheddar2014 Cheesehead

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    There's a lot to fix...still. Hawk making tackles 9 yds past the line is telling.
     
  10. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    We can agree on that.
    If I might add a compliment to my complaint about the run D being gashed.
    1. We bent but didn't break
    2. AJ and Lattimore were effective on the plays where they shot the run gaps. We need to do a better job learning what works n repeat it AND what doesn't n delete it
     
  11. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I just think Capers didn't put together a good gamelan . I think after watching some film on the Bears he had his mind set on going small and quick to help against the pass but didn't anticipate Forte going off like he did. Marshall and Jeffrey didn't hurt us to much but those screens and Benett killed us. Next game we have to bracket Bennett and see if our DBS can win on the outside 1 on 1 while not getting gashed in the run game...right up the middle at that. Some of those holes Raji could've run through.
     
  12. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Right, insanity is, 'doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results'. But this season Capers has tried a wide variety of alignments and nothing has worked. So the definition of insanity doesn't apply, he's not doing the same thing over and over. That points to personnel, doesn't it? The only suggestion I have is starting Pennel at NT. Yes, he got pushed around some but he also fought like hell on the few times I zeroed in on him and was fighting through a double team on one play.

    Daniels, after 'talking the talk' in the off season again didn't 'walk the walk' yesterday. Datone, Guion, and Boyd haven't been good against the run. Where is the penetration into the backfield that causes disruption in the run game? So what is Capers supposed to do? IMO Neal is too light to play inside with his hand down on anything like a regular basis and using Peppers in that role on anything other than as a change up on passing downs doesn't use him to their best advantage IMO. BTW, I have to look at what he did yesterday again, but I'll bet Peppers is leading the team in pressures so far this season.

    You can innovate on a game plan all you want but if the players aren't winning any of their one-on-one battles, it's not going to matter. You can't "gimmick" a D into being a good run defense.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  13. gopkrs

    gopkrs Cheesehead

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    Rodell, I agree with you in that I would like to see a real 3-4 at times. Most of the time we just look like a 4-3. Maybe even go traditional 4-3 with Peppers at right DE. He has made some plays from the left but I like the way he contains on the right side. I would not mind seeing what Barrington could do. Lattimore has disappointed me in that he does not hit really hard which is what I would like to see in a middle linebacker. Still, would rather have him than Jones.
     
  14. OCBP

    OCBP Cheesehead

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    Well stated. To this point, the D is really struggling on winning individual match ups at the point of attack.

    Hawk did have 1 or 2 stops inside 5 yards from line of scrimmage. Just hate to see him chasing all the time. Watch how many times he picks the wrong hole fill.
     
  15. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I actually don't hate this defense. The d line just has to play better. They can not get manhandled like that. Not a Guion fan after watching him so far this year. I think I would like to see Daniels, Pennel and Datone out there with Boyd rotating some with Pennel. Mixing in a few line stunts might help. Guys hitting different gaps than the offense is expecting should eventually open up some blitzing lanes. They still only have 5 bodies and 52 guys on this roster. I would consider adding someone to the rotation.
     
  16. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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  17. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Johnny jolly and Cory Williams need jobs. Remember these were two of our better linemen when they were here. I like the attitude and toughness they bring. Our dline was so good when we had jolly, Pickett, Jenkins, and Williams. They could stop the run and pressure the qb without much blitzing.
     
  18. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    Actually. I agree and disagree. Sorry to be a pain sir.
    Ok. You are semantically correct about the definition. Although I did say we can run a 3-4. 4-3. 7-0. Whatever you call it it still non aggressive against a running team You just made my argument for me on the run gap statement. We rarely hit people at LOS. Or as my dad sais "we play not to lose" And this has been the case in nearly every scheme you can think of under Capers. Call it 29 different formats we are still not aggressive in approach. As far as personnel. Listen, if you can hold off 100,000 warriors with 300 men I'm guessing those. 300 men are not super humans it's about strategy. I appreciate your opinion and respect that. But if your telling me Daniels Datone Boyd Peppers Matthews AJ etc. are not playing hard enough or talented enough I don't buy it as a whole. I blame application of that personnel. It's starts at the top. You cant win a Chsmpionship with 11 one on one battles. It a team effort
     
  19. brandon2348

    brandon2348 GO PACK GO!

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    Don't forget about Burnett getting trucked.
     
  20. TJV

    TJV Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    No problem - at least you responded to my post here instead of just quoting it. ;) I am telling you so far this season Daniels, Datone, Boyd, Guion and AJ have not shown the talent to play the run consistently. And the DL at least occasionally (understated for effect) are supposed to hit people at the LOS. Do you think that's not happening because they're all double teamed?

    Look at the first three teams the Packers played - their DL and/or front 7 have better talent than the Packers. The Lions frequently put 6 men in the box and stopped the Packers running game. Pick any six Packers on the roster - do you believe with the right strategy those six could duplicate that result? No, talent matters. The Packers went from having two fat guys and a run stopper (Wilson) on the DL (who weren't consistently stopping the run either) to having lighter, lengthier athletes. They all aren't two gapping on every play yet they aren't getting penetration. And if you sell out on the run, the middle of the Packers pass D will look even worse than it has on too many occasions. It is a team game and to be successful, the DL and quasi DL (LBs whose responsibilities are DL oriented) have to do their jobs as part of the team.

    Capers looked pretty damn smart with Jenkins, a young(er) Pickett, a dynamic Raji, a healthy Matthews, Woodson, and Collins. Talent matters. BTW, the 100,000 warriors and 300 men was funny but obviously not applicable: You can't control the high ground or attack in narrow passages on a football field.
     
  21. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    turn it around

    If any starting q/b on any nfl team, cant make 30% of the throws needed to run an offense, thats a lack of talent..

    Same as the d-l...If they can't beat their blockers in any scheme they are in, that isnt on coaching, that is lack of talent
     
  22. buggybill2003

    buggybill2003 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Are we increasing the squad sizes again ??? :eek:
     
  23. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    Ahhhh. I love the debate. Thanks.
    Ok. So let's take that a step further ..
    What people are responsible for putting that QB(although were talking D) on the field. Hiring. Training. Etc...
    And who is responsible for giving the QB time to throw? oL. How are they hired? And how do the WR. The TEs. Get on the team. They don't just show up to practice with no contract right?
     
  24. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Lost me?

    I thought you were blaming Capers for the def line not performing?

    My stance is this...

    No matter what the scheme is, if def line cant not get off their blocks, to me that means lack of talent..so thats on Ted not Capers..

    Same as if the q/b cant make those throws, it isnt because of his coach, it is because he doesnt have the arm to do it...That would fall on Ted
     
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  25. Twiddlemylobes

    Twiddlemylobes Fat Tuesday Orleans

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    My contention is that the coaches are 101% responsible for their men. And if they take any other approach than to accept responsibility as a staff who sought them, interviewed them, Hired them, trained them and then told them exactly what was expected Make the calls, adjustments, etc. well, then They shouldn't be coaching.
    No you got me. I'm blaming The staff. Not just Capers. Everyone who had a say on that players involvement.
    Listen , every position has a support position. They do what they are told. Now sure. I agree.. They gotta play ball. But ultimately the grand scheme Is a reliance on the man next to you. Those individuals didn't ask to have certain players play beside them. It's a machine. All the parts work in unison, when 1 part fails. It can deem the whole machine defunct. If you recall this is the reason they chose AR over Favre. The coaches hired personnel suited to ARs strengths and weakness. The draft. FA had already happened. They already started practicing together. It wasn't about personal feelings or performance., Favre was hell of a Qb. It was about the machine.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2014

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