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3-4 vs 4-3 Defense

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by bhuggins, Oct 8, 2012.

  1. bhuggins

    bhuggins Cheesehead

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    It seems to me that we just don't have the right personnel to run a 3-4 defense. Yes, we do have the speed and athleticism at the outside edge rushers in Matthews and company, but we definitely do not have the right people playing down on the line. We can't seem to get any consistent inside pressure and they we can't stop the run. I almost feel like this unit would be better playing the standard 4-3. I realize it's too late to change at this point in the season, but unless we can get alot stronger with out 3 man front, I don't see the defense getting any better.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  2. JBlood

    JBlood Cheesehead

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    Our offensive line has trouble blocking a 3 man rush while our 5 man rush doesn't seem to hurry good QBs ( Cutler not included). The whole team really is looking lost right now, and it better change this Sunday or the playoffs are a long shot.
     
  3. Aaron rodgers is god

    Aaron rodgers is god Cheesehead

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    Switching back would hurt our defense even more. Clay Matthews would have to be a DE. Right there would be a huge problem. We don't have the DT to run a 3-4. and i have no idea who would be our 3rd linebacker.
     
  4. MasterChef

    MasterChef Cheesehead

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    Bj raji is so overrated
    Worthy is worthless
    Nick perry is garbage
    Our DBs are terrible when the refs are actually watching them
    We don't have the personnel outside of claymaker
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Forderick

    Forderick Cheesehead

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    Switching to a 4-3 isn't going to work this year.

    With how inconsistent and poor at times this defence has been so far, i wouldn't mind a change back to a 4-3, now the problem is simply the pass rush. When any pass rush works the defence looks a lot better and things work out for the most part, and when the packers can't get any pass rush going teams just march up and down the field like we saw against the 49ers and to some extent the Colts.
     
  6. bhuggins

    bhuggins Cheesehead

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    I wasn't suggesting switching back this year as that would be a disaster. But I guess what I'm saying is it just seems we don't have the personnel to run a 3-4 due to the lack of quality down linemen. As for Matthews having to play DE, that is not true, he could easily play outside LB as that is where he played at USC. I don't have a problem with our DB's or with our linebackers as a unit, it is all on the 3 down linemen at this point as they are not getting the consistent inside pressure needed to make a 3-4 work.
     
  7. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    after 5 games your so sure?
     
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  8. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I've said this before and i'll say it again, until we really get "3-4 personnel" on the d-line we will continue to see a lack of a consistent pass rush. People don't really understand how huge the loss of cullen Jenkins was because he was the one d-linemen who could get to the qb on a consistent basis which freed up thing's for Matthews. We need to find sombody on the line who can have the same impact Jenkins had and i beleive that guy is Nick Perry if they just allow him to put his hand in the dirt more and use his speed and quickness to get to the qb. ANYTHING to help the secondary so they are not trying to cover guy's 8 seconds.

    Gotta make adjustmets and put guy's where they can make plays! Is this not common sense??
     
  9. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    We miss Desmond Bishop because DJ Smith is 5 ft 9 and easy to throw over. Urlacher is 6-4 and hard to throw over.
    Rabert Francois is much better vs the pass and he should be in on passing downs.

    Nick Collins would help a lot too.
     
  10. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    So why are we not seeing more of Francois on third downs then? see this is what i'm talking about smh if the coaches are not using the right personel in the right circumstances then they are not maximizing their chances to win imo. Perfect example. Rodgers is getting hammered and we are going empty backfield? Thing's like this make me shake my head (smh).
     
  11. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Really think coaches dont know who would work better?

    Comments like that make ME smh
     
  12. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Well to be fair, there is politics involved in football. Higher draft choices get longer leashes on more opportunities to fail. I like Francois but he has only shown a few flashes. I think that I might agree with the coaches that DJ Smith has more upside. As the old saying goes, you can't bake a cake without breaking a few eggs. It might be a little messy until we get there, but we look to be on track to getting there. Are we going 15-1? Absolutely not. It's not easy to make things work with so many rookies playing active roles.
     
  13. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    didn't say they wouldn't know who would work better buddy. Thank you tho.
     
  14. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    My money says the Packers are not going 15-1 this year. Just my gut instinct. ;)
     
  15. Rocky11

    Rocky11 Superbowl bound Pack

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    I think they put Matthews at linebacker too much. He is one of the best pass rushers in the league and he is out trying to cover receivers. Keep that beast rushing. He kicks major a$$ when he does.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  16. BrettsFavor

    BrettsFavor Cheesehead

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    This is our 4th season in the 3-4 with 4 draft classes in them. We have the right personnel.
     
  17. BrettsFavor

    BrettsFavor Cheesehead

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    If you rush him every time, that is a bit predictable.
     
  18. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    I don't get the chatter about going from a 3-4 to a 4-3. What problem are you trying to solve by doing so? It strikes me as change for the sake of change.
     
  19. Rocky11

    Rocky11 Superbowl bound Pack

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    Of course you don't rush him every time but you can disguise his rushes and send him in at different times and angles.
     
  20. Sunshine885500

    Sunshine885500 Cheesehead

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    The 3-4 Defense is driven by the LB's and we only have one thus far who has had an impact (Mathews). We have several who have potential (Moses, Walden, & Perry) but to be truthful the Packers have been weak up the middle or a while. I would love to see how our inside LB's rate in the league as for making game changing plays. They seem to be too light and don't hit with the force you need from the inside. A change to a 4-3 Defense would help out against the Run because you would have more big bodies on the line of scrimmage and have the linemen pinch the gaps sort of the way Tampa use to with Sapp & McFarlen. GB's lineman in the 3-4 only suppose to holdup the Offensive Linemen so the LB's can flow to the ball and make plays. Well I rest my case.

    It does appear that GB's Personnel is better suited right now for a 4-3 because they only have 2 true DT'd in Pickett & Raji and bunch of DE types. Somehow they need to get more people into the box and make a team one dimensional or either (I don't know) how they fix their pass defense because it has been pitiful to say the least.
     
  21. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    I wonder if the return of Mike Neal would make a transition to a 4-3 more possible. Neal played pretty well in his return last week, and he's a true DE. If you have a Raji and Pickett at DT with Neal and Worthy at DE, with a rotation of Daniels and Wilson at DT, that might not be bad. The problem is the LB. You'd have Hawk as MLB with Matthews on the right and Perry/Walden on the left. Moving to a 4-3 would mean that our best pass rusher Matthews would be underutilized, although perhaps Matthews could play the role of a "roamer" and do a fair bit of stunt blitzing. It wouldn't be a good setup for Perry either, but who knows? Maybe Perry could also play more at the DE position. He's a little light for that, but he's much more used to playing in a 3-point stance.
     
  22. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    I think there is a common misconception that the 4-3 is the better run defense. The 3-4 typically is. Gross generalizations to follow: While you have fewer linemen in a 3-4, all of them are 300 pounders. In a 4-3, only your tackles are over 300. Add in your outside linebackers and a 3-4 becomes a 5-2 on running plays.

    As far as 'real ends' on our roster, we don't have any. Worthy, Daniels, and Neal are 3-technique tackles in a 4-3 scheme. The closest thing to a 4-3 end we have on our roster is Perry. Actually, Perry would likely be a more impactfuly player today as a 4-3 end. To a lesser extend Matthews might work as a 4-3 end, but he's about 10-20 pounds light to do it every down.

    To put this in different perspective, look at our nickel defense. We trot out, from left to right, Perry, Neal, Raji, and Matthews. Have Perry and Matthews put their hand in the dirt. Ta-da, that's our starting line if we switched to the 4-3 without a huge influx of different body types.

    To really make a go of a 4-3, we'd need another stud pass rushing end to pair with Perry. Matthews would probably become our strong side OLB and Hawk and Bishop as the Middle and Weakside backers. Who is who would depend on the specific scheme. In the Bob Sanders/Jimmy Johnson scheme, I'd probably put Bishop in the middle as that is the play-making position. In most others, the weak side get the glory and more coverage responsibilities, so I'd put Bishop there. Not that he's a great cover man, but better than Hawk. Really, we'd need another play-making guy to replace Hawk, but if we're doing that, let's just get him anyway and stick with the 3-4.
     
  23. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    We have a bunch of fat guy's yes...but they are not 3-4 personnel imo. You have to have at least 1 gay who can effectively play the run and get pressure by pushing the pocket. Raji is pretty good against the run but he can't seem to pressure the qb anymore. If we had a guy like Ngata we would be golden!!
     
  24. mradtke66

    mradtke66 Cheesehead

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    Yeah, but guys like Ngata are rare. Stupid rare. Any team with any scheme would be golden with a guy like Ngata.

    As far as needing one guy to push the pocket, I think we have enough, if barely. Neal did well last week and looked as good as the Redskins game his rookie year. Now if he can maintain that, we finally have our Jenkins replacement.

    Neal, Worthy, Wilson, and Daniels all have 1 sack each. That's not bad for 3-4 linemen. Particularly nice for Neal and Daniels considering their low playing time. I believe each of them has only played ~40 snaps.

    If Neal can play well enough to bump Wilson from starting in base, perhaps Daniels could sneak into the game day actives more. Think about a nickel front of Perry, Daniels, Neal, and Matthews. Maybe we could consider a 3-3 nickel of Daniels, Neal, and Worthy backed by Perry, Smith, and Matthews. More wrinkles are good.
     

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