1. Welcome to Green Bay Packers NFL Football Forum & Community!

    Packer Forum is one of the largest online communities for the Green Bay Packers. You are currently viewing our community forums as a guest user.

    Sign Up or

    Having an account grants you additional privileges, such as creating and participating in discussions. Furthermore, we hide most of the ads once you register as a member!
    Dismiss Notice

SherRossley and the Holy Cross offense....

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by P@ck66, Nov 12, 2005.

  1. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    interesting article on SherRossley found on the net....

    Helpless (10/15/05)

    The West Coast Offense (WCO) when run well, is a dance of beauty. A shimmering, violent grace which hits them where they’re not and punches them in the mouth when they let their guard down. It was once described as the offense whose goal was to put each player in the best position to express his individual talent. On a more basic level, the purpose of the route combinations was to put each receiver in a place where he only needed to beat one man. You saw some of the glory of that approach in the waning moments of the Green Bay/Carolina game. When Brett Favre took over the play calling from Mike Sherman and Tom Rossley, you saw the night and day difference between college and the pros.

    Sherman plays in set pieces. He brings in a package of players (like U-71) and then attempts to attack a specific player or gameplan of a defense. When he guesses right, good things can result. When he guesses wrong, it takes a full half to make changes and even then it might be too late.

    The beauty of the WCO is its dynamism. It imposes its will via tempo. Using mostly the same personnel each play, it can run fast or slow, controlling the ball until able to take cruel advantage of defensive mistakes.

    Sherman by contrast is too simple and too clever by half. His package approach means that he needs specific people on the field for specific plays. The infamous U-71 derives its name from Kevin Barry’s #71 jersey and is based on Barry playing tight end and flattening the man in front of him. There’s not much subtlety. That’s okay when you have one of the best offensive lines in football, not so okay when you don’t.

    The larger weaknesses of Sherman’s approach center on tempo, philosophy and personnel. On nearly every play in the Holy Cross offense, two or more players need to go in and out of the game. This slows the speed of the offense down. Players must come in and go out, must all be together before the play is called, must all take their positions before the ball is snapped. This package approach does not allow players to get in a rhythm with each other and makes it harder for players to learn other positions. Players learn the package and not the position. Each Sherman package seeks its own way of attacking the defense. U-71 for power, three wideouts for vertical passing, etc. Perhaps it’s the correct approach for the dumbest team in football. But it is not a pro approach and it lacks a principle that players can learn.

    I consider it a great crime that we did not fire Sherman two years ago and throw the house at Charlie Weis in trying to sweet talk him here. Weis was offensive coordinator for the Patriots and is now head coach at Notre Dame. For my money, he is the best offensive mind in football right now. His attack mentality permeates his play calling and rubs off on the attitude of his offensive players. I felt that one of his finest moments came in the Superbowl win against the Eagles. When New England picked up their offensive tempo, it changed the rhythm of the game, something evident even to the reporters:

    Not only did the Patriots begin using the screen pass effectively, but they also began approaching the line and snapping the ball faster. A faster-paced offense resulted in a New England touchdown drive and kept Philadelphia off balance.

    http://www.superbowl.com/news/story/8170992

    The same story also highlights this fact:

    Throughout a scoreless first quarter, the Patriots offense produced one first down and 45 total yards. But following the Eagles' opening touchdown drive, New England changed tactics.

    New England changed tactics after the first quarter. Changing tactics just isn’t in the Mike Sherman lexicon.

    I don’t think that the Packers should run the two-minute drill every time they have the football, but they do need to develop their ability to change gears, to call the tune and make the defense dance.

    Let me return again to philosophy. You can’t develop tempo without a philosophy. It’s like trying to rumba during a waltz. A bit more from one of Weis players:

    He really made us learn the philosophy of the offense, what he’s trying to do, instead of just learning what you do on which play. -- Senior tight end, Anthony Fasano.

    I don’t think that there could be a comparable Sherman/Rossley philosophy as I really don’t think they have one. It’s all set pieces.

    To be fair to Sherman and Rossley, I just called Charlie Weis the best offensive mind in football. It’s not their fault that they’re not as good. That does not excuse them from having basic competence in the fundamentals of the game itself. It also does not excuse them from not having the flexibility of mind to change the things that aren’t working.

    If I haven’t said it before, I’ll say it again. I’m sure both are decent men. I’m sure they love their families and would probably be excellent neighbors. They’re not made for the pro game however and are destroying a proud franchise.

    Mike Sherman must go.
     
  2. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    :sucks: Dear God man, can't you go one post without letting your feelings on MS and TR come out? Every Post I read has the opinion that MS sucks and has to go, TR sucks and has to go too. Honestly, It isn't going to happen this season, SO GET OVER IT. You would be a good poster if every post didn't contain ramblings about firing MS and TR. Oh and your article..... Exactly how many play calling options would you be able to implement if your best WR, Third best WR, rookie WR, Best 2 RB's, Starting G's where all gone. Add to that your best TE is injured. You can only do so much with the decimation of injuries, and surely NOT EVEN YOU CAN BLAME MS or TR for the INJURIES?
     
  3. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    This has been going on for 5 years..

    (and i did not write the article..someone else did...so i guess..there is at least one other person out there who can see this stuff..and i'm guessing quite a few others....)

    But...Here's a shocker for you...

    (IF Brett Favre's next season or two depends upon keeping Mike Sherman on..then i say...do so..But that would have to be made perfectly clear on Brett's part....because that's a BIG IF....and depending on wetter they get some playmakers at the skill positions around Favre next year....

    I believe that Favre can guide this team to the SB, even with the current giant handicap of the coaching staff!)
     
  4. Chamuko

    Chamuko Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    1,067
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well 66 I am also tired of this issue because I have come to a point in wich I fully understand that Shermy is here to stay no matter bad he is, and we will have him back next year, if #4 stays we might still get a shot at a winning season, if he retires the future will be black and the worst thing is that he might be able to damage our future by giving his philosophy to our new QB.. Who knows now some writers are getting harder on him but it is too late to save this season and too late to save the following one already.
     
  5. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    66, I never said you wrote the article, I merely meant the article you posted, or rather provided a link to. But hey if you want to get all technical and act like a 11 year old, be my guest. The fact is this, Brett said so in an interview that MS fate WOULD play a decision on his retirement, and I don't know how much clearer you want it to be said. He has said many times before he likes MS and that MS is a good coach (HE SAID MS HAS A WAY OF GETTING THE POINT ACROSS EVEN BETTER THEN MH). The difference between you and me is this, I've accepted the fact that MS is our coach. Come monday morning, win, loose, or tie, I will have accepted MS is our coach for the time being, and be fine with that. You on the other hand let it consume every minute of your being (or so I guess since you ALWAYS bash MS in your posts). You are fixated with the idea of letting MS go, and until you realize it isn't going to happen and you need to shut up and move on, you will waste you life making a point which people know, yet isn't going to happen regardless. I am not one to come out and pick arguments, but enough is enough. Grow up, and realize MS is here to stay whether you like it or not. And their isn't anything YOU can do about it.
     
  6. digsthepack

    digsthepack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,486
    Ratings:
    +0
    You know, folks, I get just as tired as you with the perpetual 'ms sucks' from 66. But get beyond that and find one thing that is incorrect in that article. It pretty well sums up the inability of MS/TR to call creative gameplans, and their abject inability to change when things are not going as they wish.

    Basically, to sum up the MS/TR offense, it is almost like they expect the opponent's defense to cooperate with them to get things done.

    The article is correct in every facet. Sorry if you do not like the truth.
     
  7. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2004
    Messages:
    11,903
    Ratings:
    +8
    I'm hoping Rossley gets promoted to HC and sherman goes to OC. That'd be a SB combo for sure with Brett and Javon!
     
  8. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    2,207
    Ratings:
    +0
    all about da pack...

    YOu mean SherRossley is going to be the HC of the GB Packers FOR LIFE..and that the fans don't have a say in the matter!

    I beg to differ....and Favre is a coach's son..so he will never bad mouth his coach in public...what his private views are..no one knows...(although there was some mysterious incident with Rossley..IPB..can you illuminate?)

    (plus..if the fans grumble..it does get to Harlan's ear..so if the stock holders are upset with the organization..they do have a right to voice their opinion..am i right..all about da pack?...anyone?)
     
  9. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    Digs, I never said the article is compltely wrong. Are Ms and TR's game plans too predictible at times, YES, but lets not forget the match against Pats in which MS out coached Bill B., Charlie W., and Romeo C. MS can mix in his game plan, but why he doesn't is beyond me, althoug this season with all the injuries does limit him heavily.

    66, I never said for life, I said FOR THE TIME BEING. If you read the Packersnews interview with Harlan, he said it as clear as day that he has had rumblings from fans about MS already, but regardless told them straight up how MS has led this team to respectible records in the past. He said clearly, that TT is in charge of FOOTBALL DECISIONS, and he wouldn't step in. And TT is not one to do what the majority of the people want. Harlan is a respected man, an intellegent man, and the best thing to happen for the Pack. He said he never interferes in football operations, and its the GM's job. So unless you are trying to get to TT, you are deluded in thinking Harlan will make a dramatic change in HC because so many people want him to. And the fact is, anyone can talk the talk, but only few can walk the walk. You point our problems with MS and TR, but in all honesty, if you or I or anyone else on this forum were to become an NFL coach, we would do a hundred times worse than MS. And you can't deny it because if it wasn't true, then you would be a HC right now. Seeing as you are not, you need to move on and start posting analysis on current packer areas other than our HC. You know your stuff, but are too narrow minded to be taken seriously.
     
  10. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    Great post aadp...

    Someone posted a link from a local writer who said he doesn't even listen to fans who complain about the coach or the qb because those fans typically know next to nothing about football, and discredit the other 20 some coaches and 50 some players on the team who, collectively, make a far more significant contribution to the team (I too fall into this category of ppl who don't know what they're talking about).

    "Well, musccy, then what the heck is the point of having the forum?" Well, OK, you've got me there, but 1) don't expect our message board to alter Harlan's decisions...you don't think he's critically analyzing the team when they're 1-7?!?

    And 2nd...the 400th post indicating that MS is stupid, fat, ugly, smelly, and can't game plan was sufficient to indicate what your point is...so let it rest for maybe a day or two.
     
  11. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,868
    Ratings:
    +2
    P@ck66,

    Your dislike for Sherman's performance has a passion behind it.

    Many people on this forum may be getting a little tired of it. I however welcome it. Thank you for a great link to a very insightful article that you did not write.

    The way I look at is this. You are as passionate about the Packers as any Packer fan. I believe you are a true packer fan. You never flame anyone personally, you simply make your point. Your posts do not contain vulger personal attacks.

    You simply state your point which is always based on your football knowledge, and that knowledge is very good.

    I agree with much of what you say, but not all of it. I think Sherman is a good coach who is perhaps flawed in one major area, and that area is loyalty. He is way too loyal to Rossley and Rossley must go. Heretofore Sherman must go.

    Sherman could be a great coach if he would learn that there can be no friendship in the business world, and winning the Super Bowl is a business.

    When it comes to busieness... "A friendship is a sinking ship."

    Keep on posting away my firend. I enjoy your posts, and although I do not agree with everything you type you make me think, and that is what this forum should be all about.

    Raider Pride.
     
  12. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    No offense RP, but (although P@ck66 has been better about this lately) he tends to resort to name calling and attacks on either coaches or posters on this board, myself included.
     
  13. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    RP, are you saying you haven't grown tired of having 66 make every post into an anti-MS post?

    I do agree however, that you are a person who does know the stuff he is talking about. I for one would rather you bring forth your knowledge on other issues than just stating MS should be fired and TR too. I would love to engage in discussions with you, 66, about topics ranging from things other than our HC problems. However, your narrow minded-ness in your posts does not make it possible.

    As musccy said, 66 has gotten better recently with the personal attacks. Above is just an example of how we have been able to engage in a disagreement without it resulting in name calling and flaming.
     
  14. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,883
    Ratings:
    +5
    Every one has an axe to grind - I've been up on that railroad, just a bit, myself.
    I'll admit it - I'm passionate about the Green Bay Packers.
    I gotta right to speak my piece and so does Pack66, as well as anyone else.
    If he's so wrong - why don't any of you bring up the proof?
    Post a link....????

    Sometimes...... it wears on a person, sure....
    But, at least, he doesn't (ahem) "flip-flop" ... if you get my drift.

    What I want to know.. is where's the link to that original article?

    Because, I know one thing... Pack66 didn't write that first section - it's not his style... He may have added to it, a bit ... but, he didn't write it.

    I want to add the actual article to our IPB web site..... fess up, 66 :!:
     
  15. CalifPacker

    CalifPacker Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2005
    Messages:
    757
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hey 66,
    Take a step back and relax.
     
  16. all about da packers

    all about da packers Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    7,033
    Ratings:
    +0
    The article is from www.firemikesherman.com

    Hey IPB, I never said 66 was wrong. But I did say that his opinion of firing MS and TR in every post was getting old.

    But hey IPB, since you wanted the proof:

    http://www.packersnews.com/welcome/to/multimedia.shtml
    (Do down to Oct. 16, in interview with Bob Harlan regarding fans voicing their opinion of MS)

    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/nov05/367478.asp (MS has approval where it counts)

    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/nov05/367776.asp (MS has players support)

    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/nov05/367910.asp (Favre saying MS's future could play a role in his decision)

    And the link to the last Chat after the game by Christl, where he says how people blaming the Coach and QB ar epeople who he doesn't want to talk too since that shows their limited knowledge about football (Sorry, I would link but I am not subscribed to Packer Plus)

    First Interview of the preseason that Brett conducted, were Brett states He (MS) has a way of getting a point across like no one before. He can do it even better then MH. He just goes that extra little bit to hammer it home. (Had an example of how MS siad something about not criticizing other's occupations since his own mother was a maid in a hotel). *Don't have the article link*

    I am in no way shape or form a 100% MS supporter. He is our coach for the time being, and I have accepted that.
     
  17. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,868
    Ratings:
    +2
    Musccy and A.A.D.P.

    Musccy, if P@ck66 has attacked you personally I have not seen it, sorry. I imagine Ryan would have banned him if he was, or at least given him a warning. If you say he has I believe you, and I am sorry.

    Trust me on this, P@ck66 and I are not swapping spit with each other in the shower. I do not know him personally and he does not know me. P@ck66 says Sherman and Rossley are inept and I say Rossley may be, but Sherman is not. Sherman is a good coach with a minor flaw and I stated that in the post set forth herein.

    I say the Packers need a change in direction and a new influx of freshness.

    A.A.D.P. We can discuss anything you like. We can discuss Greg Knapp’s approach to exposing the Packer D. weakness, we can discuss how Brett needs to throw into Scott’s coverage tomorrow. Send me a private message… We can talk about how the Raiders are going to win the Super Bowl next year and how the Packers will win it the year after.

    Guys. I am not talking sides here.

    OK.
     
  18. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    1,854
    Ratings:
    +1
    RP...I didn't mean to imply I was that offended by your comments...just saying that P@ck66 and I have had some squabbles in the past which got a little ugly.
     
  19. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,883
    Ratings:
    +5
    Pay attention to that last sentence. I wanna know where he gets his info. As far as I have ever heard.. Brett Favre doesn't "take over the play calling" from the Coaching Staff. Sherman has alluded to taking over the play calling from Rossley. Nothing more than that has ever been admitted to.

    Certainly it smells like this is what's happening. But very rarely will Favre just take the game and put it in his own hip pocket. He does, however, switch up play calls, on the run as it were, on a given play. but only when truly necessary - a very big difference - especially when faced with a reality check and spock logic.

    I understand the guy's frustration - but he'd better have proof on that comment before I take him at full face value. On my article, I wrote what I thought should be something that not only the players could be shown respect thru - but also how the fans can gain a fealty for the Team - the WHOLE team.. a slightly different premise on the whole.
     
  20. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2005
    Messages:
    2,486
    Ratings:
    +0
    Pack 66. I like it. I like when an argument with reasoning is laid out. I agree with the package disrupting the flow and some players have trouble being used cold and never get to "warm up" in the game.

    The game plan was predictable before but now has been simplified for new RB's and WR's. It is worse not better.

    Mike Sherman slow starts to season play are bothersome.

    But, we all are human and have our failings and shortcomings. A system of checks and balances is needed for all of us. I think Ted Thompson as part of his duties will be constructing a way for Mike Sherman to get feedback on his coaching and learn from his mistakes.

    As long as it is a learning and correcting process I'm in favor of it.

    Posts about lynching, tar and feathering, Fire them now! Are not helpful.
     
  21. net

    net Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    980
    Ratings:
    +86
    I'm treating P66 as a troll, since his single-mindedness means an incomplete analysis of how Sherman and Rossley were able to resurrect an offense Sunday against Atlanta. That includes analysis of Brett's great game, Sam Gado's emergence, Donald Driver's great game, Scott Wells great game, Will Whittaker's great game, Mark Tauscher and Chad Clifton's great game, Vonte Leach's great game, Bubba Franks and Donald Lee playing key roles.

    To P66, none of this happened because Sherman and Rossley are incapable of producing such results. Thus it didn't happen and the Packers must have lost.

    Did I mention the defense nailed Atlanta's rushing attack and Michael Vick?
    Sorry, that didn't happen either.

    P66 is caught in the box where he wants the Packers to lose so a new head coach will be named. Of course, the possibility that the future could be worse than before has not entered the radar screen.

    Now what are the Packers going to do now that they are 1-8?

    P.S...the 'source' of P66's thread-starter was never identified. Was it ghost-written by another knowing source, like a Sherman-hater at another board?
     
  22. IPBprez

    IPBprez Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,883
    Ratings:
    +5
    AADP came back with his posting that labeled all info related, Net ---

    I would offer - that while Sherman may be starting to get it, that these players deserve more than "kid-gloves" when it comes to Coaching, ...I still feel he's fighting it, tooth & nail, the whole way... it's against his nature to be a Vince Lombardi type Coach.. more like Ray Rhodes, when it comes right down to it..

    I would offer the Players are finally getting tired of being seen as Losers, week in and week out. Very early in the second (?) quarter, there was a mix-up on two plays in a row.... and Brett basically CHEWED OUT the whole Offense surrounding him - you saw him do it, ON CAMERA.... and after that, they all got back on the same page.

    Atlanta only had one good quarter and that was in the 2nd quarter, when they did a switch-up against the Pack --- but, true to form, Bates came out swinging, and the Offense saw it... so they piled on.

    Also - while I was pissed at the call - it ended up being valid with the one flag against Ahmad Carroll for PI..., but that call against Will Whitticker, was still questionable to me..... maybe the camera angle on that was missing - who knows... Having Wells in at Wahle's old spot... did make a difference and Brett seemed pretty relaxed out there... with a full head of steam.

    One thing the Falcons forgot - you simply do not knock Brett Favre down - it wakes up a sleeping giant and like Pearl harbor, watch out for the recoil...

    A GREAT GAME, ........finally!
    Too bad the Media is still hawking all around the Falcons, instead of giving credit where credit is due!
     
  23. DePack

    DePack Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2005
    Messages:
    3,904
    Ratings:
    +1
    Why not credit the author?

    RP....I also want him to continue posting. He makes everyone else here look good. I love his passion too, but his obsession is not a healthy one. There was another passionate New Jersey poster once .....named chase........ Jeffery Dalmer was also very "passionate" in what he believed.
     
  24. net

    net Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    980
    Ratings:
    +86
    I'm also puzzled as to how P66 and the the others can ignore history...like the Packers top 10 rankings on offense(including #3 in the NFL last year)?

    Sherman and Rossley cooked THAT up, too.(P66 and the others think Brett draws the plays out on the dirt before they do them).

    This year, minus two All-Pro level guards, All-Pro wide receiver, All-Pro running back, losing now THREE running back backups, the starting tight end for nearly half the season, TWO tight end backups for large portions of the season, a second starting wide receiver for extended time, a promising rookie wide out for the season, employing a 5'9" wide out who should be the #5 receiver and starting A STREET FREE AGENT WHO RAN FOR 100 YARDS SUNDAY, this offense continues to move on.

    Unlike P66 and the brainwashed others, I think this might be one of the best offensive coaching jobs I've seen in awhile, especially if they put together a bunch of wins in the second half.

    The ignorance of some regarding THE REALITY OF NFL FOOTBALL is shocking if it wasn't so pathetic. Please don't respond because you are only humilitating yourself even more.
     
  25. net

    net Cheesehead

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2005
    Messages:
    980
    Ratings:
    +86
    DePack: honest to God, I don't know how that quote got into my response. I didn't put it there. To all the others, I wrote the above response without the DePack quote.
     

Share This Page