Robert Tonyan - TE

captainWIMM

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While every knee injury is unique, I think its safe to assume, the Packers will be ultra cautious with Jenkins and Tonyan. The last thing they want is for another botched recovery to wreck a season or even a career.

I don't believe the Packers' medical staff will be any more conservative with Jenkins and Tonyan than they would have been before Bakhtiari suffered a setback.
 

Heyjoe4

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I don't believe the Packers' medical staff will be any more conservative with Jenkins and Tonyan than they would have been before Bakhtiari suffered a setback.
Agreed. Bakh is an exception for reasons unknown. That doesn't mean rehab protocol should be changed for other players.
 
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Agreed. Bakh is an exception for reasons unknown. That doesn't mean rehab protocol should be changed for other players.
Bak really is an exceptional player, but maybe we are gaining a new understanding of why our staff has been so “extra cautious”.
I thought it was simply because he is so dynamic. Yet I’m beginning to surmise (my opinion of course) that he has been having mini setbacks or ongoing issues in his recovery all along. Bak has a massive contract that could come due with zero production. We might just be balancing considerations of the monetary aspect of his contract value also (in combination with our interests of his health). At that point sacrificing a season or camp to potentially gain some value from his remaining $34M dead. It sounds colder than it is, but there’s a business side of these moves also is what I’m getting at.

To maybe summarize: You push him too hard? You can add another $34M to the already lost payroll compensation (I think I have his sunk estimate correct?) and with ZERO production and a possible locked up roster designation ta boot. I’ve got a word (Sailors come to mind) for this situation but I’m not allowed to use it and it would likely be blocked and reported. An abusive term somewhere in the neighborhood of “predicament” and “excrement”
Use your imagination :whistling:
 
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Heyjoe4

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Bak really is an exceptional player, but maybe we are gaining a new understanding of why our staff has been so “extra cautious”.
I thought it was simply because he is so dynamic. Yet I’m beginning to surmise (my opinion of course) that he has been having mini setbacks or ongoing issues in his recovery all along.

Go figure this has to happen to the 2nd best player on our team
I think you're right. It seems he's been having ongoing, and maybe different, complications with this knee.

There isn't a lot of natural cushioning in the knee (well, not to play football) - the meniscus and then the thin cartilage that covers the end of the thigh and shin bones. For a non-athlete, this isn't a problem (unless they have severe arthritis). But for a pro-athlete weighing over 300 lbs a game puts a lot of stress on that joint.

I don't know what the average life is for a lineman, O and D. Bakh is 31 now, and there just aren't a lot of really good linemen who are into their 30s - or at least that's my observation.

We may never know what the problem(s) is with his knee. Or maybe he just show up Wednesday and all will be fine. Hey, we can hope. Seems that's all that's left.
 
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I think you're right. It seems he's been having ongoing, and maybe different, complications with this knee.

There isn't a lot of natural cushioning in the knee (well, not to play football) - the meniscus and then the thin cartilage that covers the end of the thigh and shin bones. For a non-athlete, this isn't a problem (unless they have severe arthritis). But for a pro-athlete weighing over 300 lbs a game puts a lot of stress on that joint.

I don't know what the average life is for a lineman, O and D. Bakh is 31 now, and there just aren't a lot of really good linemen who are into their 30s - or at least that's my observation.

We may never know what the problem(s) is with his knee. Or maybe he just show up Wednesday and all will be fine. Hey, we can hope. Seems that's all that's left.
You’re always so kind in your posts. Su I’m not saying this to correct you, but rather to make you aware. I remember thinking the same thing about the age thing, but I looked it up several years ago and several of the best OL in football were well into their 30’s. I just remember because someone pointed it out to me in here? and I was shocked also.

That said. It’s a problem 19 months in. However I’m not one to get all caught up into things beyond my control (not saying you do just stating a general point) I choose to keep praying for the man because life is bigger than a couple years of football. If I’m concerned, I’m far more concerned he can have long term health and eventually run around the yard with his kid. That’s the only non-lie I’ve told today!

I’ve got things I worry about but it’s rarely football. Unless maybe it’s a commercial break and we’re about to kick a FG for a playoff Win. Something about our ST worries me it’s just part of being a Packer! ;)
I might worry a little for 3.5 minutes, but past that I’ll smooth tune out. I really don’t have time to worry, beyond something catastrophic, of course.
 
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Heyjoe4

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You’re always so kind in your posts. Su I’m not saying this to correct you, but rather to make you aware. I remember thinking the same thing about the age thing, but I looked it up several years ago and several of the best OL in football were well into their 30’s. I just remember because someone pointed it out to me in here? and I was shocked also.

That said. It’s a problem 19 months in. However I’m not one to get all caught up into things beyond my control (not saying you do just stating a general point) I choose to keep praying for the man because life is bigger than a couple years of football. If I’m concerned, I’m far more concerned he can have long term health and eventually run around the yard with his kid. That’s the only non-lie I’ve told today!

I’ve got things I worry about but it’s rarely football. Unless maybe it’s a commercial break and we’re about to kick a FG for a playoff Win. Something about our ST worries me it’s just part of being a Packer! ;)
I might worry a little for 3.5 minutes, but past that I’ll smooth tune out. I really don’t have time to worry.
Thanks for your kind words, and I don't mind being corrected, it happens a lot anyway! I guess I'm a little surprised that O linemen can play at a high level into their 30s. It seems counter-intuitive - they're huge guys and their joints take a beating. And yet they are incredibly well-conditioned athletes. And conditioning solves a lot of joint problems.

I was a very active runner in my 30s and 40s - ran like 20-25 marathons. That sounds impressive but was actually dumb on my part. I beat up my knees, add in osteoarthritis, and this year I had both replaced. Before that, I hadn't run a step in 20 years.

But now that I think about it, that's a lot of punishment to inflict on a body. So we can actually take quite a bit of punishment and end up ok. So I hope that Bakh will be ok and get back on the field. We need him!
 
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Thanks for your kind words, and I don't mind being corrected, it happens a lot anyway! I guess I'm a little surprised that O linemen can play at a high level into their 30s. It seems counter-intuitive - they're huge guys and their joints take a beating. And yet they are incredibly well-conditioned athletes. And conditioning solves a lot of joint problems.

I was a very active runner in my 30s and 40s - ran like 20-25 marathons. That sounds impressive but was actually dumb on my part. I beat up my knees, add in osteoarthritis, and this year I had both replaced. Before that, I hadn't run a step in 20 years.

But now that I think about it, that's a lot of punishment to inflict on a body. So we can actually take quite a bit of punishment and end up ok. So I hope that Bakh will be ok and get back on the field. We need him!
Amen. I understand some fans being discouraged, we get in the habit of practicing worrying and that’s mainly people that don’t yet understand the negative spiritual forces routinely putting thoughts in our head. Yet we don’t live in a spirit of fear of thoughts. We live our lives in actuality of confidence and courage

God very often takes the worse possible situation and turns it into Gold. My daughter is a living example of him doing a miracle and I will never question Gods healing power again. The more I thank him, the better my “luck” seems to get.

David could just as easily be the biggest turnaround story of the year as he could be career ending. I’m not going to speak to someone’s demise unless I’d be willing to do it to their face? No. I choose to have a spirit of thankfulness and trust in goodness. You know God made our bodies extremely intricate in design, but also our bodies are quite valiant in the Recovery area. I’m seeing David taking a honorary knee after helping us to another Super Bowl Win!
 
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captainWIMM

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Bak really is an exceptional player, but maybe we are gaining a new understanding of why our staff has been so “extra cautious”.

I don't believe the Packers medical staff is extra cautious with Bakhtiari. He just isn't ready to practice 19 months after suffering the injury, something that's extremely concerning.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I don't believe the Packers medical staff is extra cautious with Bakhtiari. He just isn't ready to practice 19 months after suffering the injury, something that's extremely concerning.
That or for all we know, he suffered another injury of some kind in the offseason. I do think if the Packers were super concerned about his availability this season, we might be seeing them going after a starting caliber vet tackle. Almost 7 weeks until the opening game and they did just fine without Bahk last season, I'm not that concerned.
 
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I don't believe the Packers medical staff is extra cautious with Bakhtiari. He just isn't ready to practice 19 months after suffering the injury, something that's extremely concerning.
I’ll take Matt at his word, I don’t think he’s trying to hide anything (other than the obvious of not fully giving our position away concerning David) It’s a combination of ongoing mini setbacks and extra caution as to not over stress his injury to the point of creating a career setback. It’s called prudence.

Beyond loss of productivity, We’ve got a massive contract at stake if we get this wrong and rush him back too soon. The next major setback will be his last in Green Bay so with that grandiose status in mind, I frankly don’t think they care what you or I or any fans think with all due respect. Our staff are not at all interested in massaging fan curiosity (I’m willing to bet they don’t even like answering incessant questions about David) they are simply going to take as long as it needs to give him the best chance of success. If we had a clear visual on everything in life? We would not need ..
Trust. Faith. Hope
 
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Heyjoe4

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I don't believe the Packers medical staff is extra cautious with Bakhtiari. He just isn't ready to practice 19 months after suffering the injury, something that's extremely concerning.
It is concerning. He'll start TC on the PUP. I didn't even know they used the PUP during camp, but regardless, this is serious. If I had to bet, I'd say he's done. If he is done, I'd like to know why. Nothing seems weird. He had an ACL repaired - a big surgery with a lengthy recovery but usually not more than a year. And he had a second procedure, far less invasive, to trim some torn meniscus. So what the hell is up?

If I were an opposing coach and it was the regular season, I'd prepare as if Bakh was not going to play. I really do think it's time for some answers. He was just paid a ton of money. So, what's up?
 

Heyjoe4

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I’ll take Matt at his word, I don’t think he’s trying to hide anything (other than the obvious of not fully giving our position away concerning David) It’s a combination of ongoing mini setbacks and extra caution as to not over stress his injury to the point of creating a career setback. It’s called prudence.

Beyond loss of productivity, We’ve got a massive contract at stake if we get this wrong and rush him back too soon. The next major setback will be his last in Green Bay so with that grandiose status in mind, I frankly don’t think they care what you or I or any fans think with all due respect. Our staff are not at all interested in massaging fan curiosity (I’m willing to bet they don’t even like answering incessant questions about David) they are simply going to take as long as it needs to give him the best chance of success. If we had a clear visual on everything in life? We would not need ..
Trust. Faith. Hope
Maybe you're right. They spent a fortune for him and got one month of work. It seems like they're grasping st stats, trying everything and anything to get him back on the field.

Ans maybe the reasons are none of our business, but he plays in a fishbowl. I think fans are entitled to an explanation, especially in this case.
 

Heyjoe4

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That or for all we know, he suffered another injury of some kind in the offseason. I do think if the Packers were super concerned about his availability this season, we might be seeing them going after a starting caliber vet tackle. Almost 7 weeks until the opening game and they did just fine without Bahk last season, I'm not that concerned.
That's a good point. They won 13 games without him and have a very talented coaching staff. It would just be nice to know what the problem is, or at least is suspected.
 

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That's a good point. They won 13 games without him and have a very talented coaching staff. It would just be nice to know what the problem is, or at least is suspected.

I'm worried if Bhak can't go primarily because it impacts what you can do with your tight ends. If you have worse tackles, the TEs need to stay in, chip, and do leakout/dumpoff routes. If they're doing that, they aren't running seam routes. I think the staff and scheme won in spite of our tackle situation, not because of it. It only gets more difficult going forward.

As far as what the problem is, for all we know, he tweaked his calf doing rehab work. That might be a degree of hopeful optimism, but it's hard to say.
 

Heyjoe4

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I'm worried if Bhak can't go primarily because it impacts what you can do with your tight ends. If you have worse tackles, the TEs need to stay in, chip, and do leakout/dumpoff routes. If they're doing that, they aren't running seam routes. I think the staff and scheme won in spite of our tackle situation, not because of it. It only gets more difficult going forward.

As far as what the problem is, for all we know, he tweaked his calf doing rehab work. That might be a degree of hopeful optimism, but it's hard to say.
He’s still there. Might as well be optimistic.
 
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damn there is more talk about Bhak than Tonyan........

back on topic people! https://brobible.com/sports/article/green-bay-packers-robert-tonyan-injury-update/

Good stuff. That’s a great article, Although someone will still attempt to undermine his recovery like one poster did after I posted a link of a video of Tonyan doing drills earlier. It’s almost like a small minority of fans want to play martyr with someone else’s health to feel better about their uneasy position. It’s stranger than how people drive slow or under speed limits for 3+ miles, but then the second you attempt to pass them? They speed up to wreckless driving speeds in an attempt not to be passed up! Even to the point of nearly causing a multiple auto fatality. We are a each in a competitive species to the point of death before we give up our position! :eek:

Something to consider again in these articles is these are PUP designations in training camp which has far less ramifications and restrictions that regular season PUP. A few of these players might even be on it as protocols for future designations. We’re still a mile from regular season so to speak.

Great to know he’s doing fine, I’ll continue to pray for the health of Big Bob as I do for myself and each of you. If God grants all of us just a little more health this season? I’ll forecast it again.. my gut says We are in for an absolute treat
 
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captainWIMM

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I do think if the Packers were super concerned about his availability this season, we might be seeing them going after a starting caliber vet tackle. Almost 7 weeks until the opening game and they did just fine without Bahk last season, I'm not that concerned.

There aren't a lot of starting caliber veteran left tackles available at this point in the offseason.

While the offense performed well for most of the season without Bakhtiari you might want to rewatch the playoff games vs. the Bucs and Niners to realize his value to the team when healthy.

I’ll take Matt at his word, I don’t think he’s trying to hide anything (other than the obvious of not fully giving our position away concerning David) It’s a combination of ongoing mini setbacks and extra caution as to not over stress his injury to the point of creating a career setback.

Beyond loss of productivity, We’ve got a massive contract at stake if we get this wrong and rush him back too soon. The next major setback will be his last in Green Bay so with that grandiose status in mind, I frankly don’t think they care what you or I or any fans think with all due respect. Our staff are not at all interested in massaging fan curiosity (I’m willing to bet they don’t even like answering incessant questions about David) they are simply going to take as long as it needs to give him the best chance of success. If we had a clear visual on everything in life? We would not need ..
Trust. Faith. Hope

The medical staff needing to be extra cautious with Bakhtiari 19 months after him suffering the injury should tell you there's reason for concern.

That’s a great article, Although someone will still attempt to undermine his recovery like one poster did after I posted a link of a video of Tonyan doing drills earlier. It’s almost like a small minority of fans want to play martyr with someone else’s health to feel better about their uneasy position.

I would love for every player currently on the PUP or NFI list to be fully healthy in week 1. That's not gonna happen though. Therefore it might be smart to lower expectations based on some media reports.
 

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While the offense performed well for most of the season without Bakhtiari you might want to rewatch the playoff games vs. the Bucs and Niners to realize his value to the team when healthy.
I don't need to rewatch either game to know that the losses weren't solely due to missing Bahk. Are the Packers a better team with a healthy Bahk? Of course they are, but they have lost with him and without him playing. I'll say what I said back when they gave him a huge new contract. It is a ton of money to tie up in one player, a player that while the best in the league at the time, reduces your financial ability to improve the team elsewhere. I hope he makes it back to start this season, but if he doesn't, I expect the Packers to still be a very competitive team without him.
 

captainWIMM

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I don't need to rewatch either game to know that the losses weren't solely due to missing Bahk. Are the Packers a better team with a healthy Bahk? Of course they are, but they have lost with him and without him playing.

The Packers not having Bakhtiari available for those games was a big reason they lost both of them.

I'll say what I said back when they gave him a huge new contract. It is a ton of money to tie up in one player, a player that while the best in the league at the time, reduces your financial ability to improve the team elsewhere.

I agree you were right that it wasn't a smart idea to sign Bakhtiari to that contract.

I hope he makes it back to start this season, but if he doesn't, I expect the Packers to still be a very competitive team without him.

Who do you think will start at both tackle spots if Bakhtiari won't be able to play at the start of the season? With a lack of talent at both wide receiver and tight end not having reliable starters at tackle might be too much to overcome for the offense.
 

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The Packers not having Bakhtiari available for those games was a big reason they lost both of them.



I agree you were right that it wasn't a smart idea to sign Bakhtiari to that contract.



Who do you think will start at both tackle spots if Bakhtiari won't be able to play at the start of the season? With a lack of talent at both wide receiver and tight end not having reliable starters at tackle might be too much to overcome for the offense.
Just read this morning that Bakh had a third procedure on that knee. I'm pretty sure it must have been done months ago. Regardless, it's not a good sign. He hasn't played competitive football for the better part of two years. Knowing Bakh, he's kept himself in shape and ready to go.

At this point, I'm not interested in more progress reports. I'm interested in seeing him play, or an admission that his career is over. That's not an overreaction. Three procedures on one knee in less than two years is just not good. Knees wear out, especially in football. I have two new knees after a career of competitive running. Knees just weren't built to take that kind of punishment. Once the cartilage and meniscus is damaged, it can't be replaced. And if there's arthritis present, as I'm beginning to suspect with Bakh - well an athlete's days are numbered.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Who do you think will start at both tackle spots if Bakhtiari won't be able to play at the start of the season? With a lack of talent at both wide receiver and tight end not having reliable starters at tackle might be too much to overcome for the offense.
With over 6 weeks to go before the first regular season game, they have plenty of time to figure it out. If they don't like what they have in the way of backups, then they would have to go out and sign a FA or trade for one. This is the time of the year when we see vet players get beat out and cut. Currently, I would say these are some Vets that are available and possibly the Packers are interested in 1 of them.

- Eric Fisher
- Daryl Williams
- Duane Brown
- Bobby Massie
- Jason Peters
- Brandon Shell
- Mike Remmers
- Marcus Cannon
- Bryan Bulaga

Are any of them an upgrade from Bahk? Well, until he is healthy, yes. Are they an upgrade from what we currently have? I guess we will find out in the coming 6 weeks.

I could also see a trade scenario where Gute lands a starting OT and pawns off a guy that might be in his final year with the Packers or a late 2023 draft pick.
 

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A third knee operation for Bahktiari. Was the first one botched? Most ACL recoveries don't turn into a circus of mounting problems but its the Packers so expect injuries.
 

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