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my best guess is that...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Bruce, Dec 28, 2005.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Mike Sherman will be let go sometime after this season. I also believe that Bates will go with him where ever Sherman lands. I highly doubt that Thompson will go with anyone other than his own selection -- which is not Bates.

    I am not sure that it isn't the best thing for all parties involved. I hope he ends up in Kansas City, though I am quite confident that the Jets will be interested if Herm Edwards moves on.

    Sadly, my guess is that Brett will hang them up if Sherman is let go. Which I do not for a second what I believe is best for any of the parties involved.

    You all can cannonize Ted Thompson all you want -- I have seen nothing that has impressed me so far, including the fact that Ron Wolf and even the worst Mike Sherman critic would ever say that they sent Brett Favre to battle without any ammunition like happened this season. It does not stop with the failure to secure competent guards -- it goes to the failure to even make a creditable attempt to fill the spots that came open through injury. When Brown went down Sherman got Grady Jackson. He even brought back a less competent Antonio Freeman rather than let Brett throw the likes of thurman as a primary receiver.

    You can all conveniently forget the job that Mike did in holding the team together when injury after injury depleted the 2002 squad that still somehow finished 12 - 4 without either of its tackles and record setting injuries. Including beating the defending champion New England Patriots in their own house with 7 - SEVEN starters out in the same season.

    I have been mixed on whether or not Sherman should be retained for different reasons than most -- but go on deluding yourselves that a simple coaching change will make the difference.
     
  2. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    Bruce...great post.

    I'm willing to cut TT some slack, but IMO, TT's underestimation of the value of quality guards was the main reason for the Packer's lack of success this year.

    In TT's defense, he now has a lot of room under the cap for next year.

    You also raise a great point about the injuries. We so often remeber the bad, but forget the good. MS and the Pack dominated the defending SB champs in New England.
     
  3. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    when was thurman the primary reciever? wasnt the depth chart Driver first, then ferguson (who did get hurt, but donald didnt...did he?)
     
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    You're right musccy, being a naysayer critic is the easiest job in the World - while being an objective evaluator is one of the hardest
     
  5. WinnipegPackFan

    WinnipegPackFan Cheesehead

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    Well, if your right and Brett leaves of his own accord with one of the reasons being Sherman's departure, this would sure take the heat off TT for being the guy to run Brett out of town. Respect your insightfull post but sure hope your wrong on this one as replacing both our QB and Head coach will not imo lead to a winning season for some time to come.
     
  6. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Well Bruce...

    Changing coaches seems to have worked for the following teams....

    Redskins
    Giants
    Dallas
    Tampa Bay
    Carolina
    Jacksonville
    Chicago
    Cincinnati
    Indianapolis
    Philadelphia
    Jets
    San Diego
    Kansas City
    Atlanta
    Seattle
    and let's not forget...NOTRE DAME!

    and the jury's still out on Miami, Cleveland, and Buffalo....

    meanwhile the Packers have used your logic and look it where it's gotten them....the Packers could have had any one of these coaches....

    I don't want them to change coaches just to change coaches, I want them to change coaches because Sherman SUCKS...and I want them to get a BETTER coach...

    These teams are examples of going out and getting a BETTER coach!

    What's so hard to understand about that?
     
  7. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    We had Chad Clifton,Mark Tauscher,Mike Flanagan. Those are the tackles and the center. that is a good core there, nothing should be changed. I will mention flanagan has had his worst yeaar ever, and clifton has made rookie mistakes a lot for some reason. Tauscher has been money though, and i might add...best lambeau leap ever.

    The guards..

    Adrian Klemm, Julius Coston, William Whitticker, Scott Wells, and Grey geuregeumyer.

    Klemm started at LG for 10 weeks. He was horrible. He was let from from New England for a reason. The reason is...NE's coach isnt retarded.

    Coston is a rook and i think got hurt.

    Whitticker was a 7th round pick and played RG a lot . For a late round pick, he didnt do too bad.

    It took 10 weeks for scott wells to finally come in, even though hes been good since...last year when he came in due to injury. Grey is also good but got almost no playing time.

    It isnt the most talented bunch of guards, but the combo that SHERMAN put out there isnt the best that could have been out there. That is hardly TTs fault...unless you think not having quality guards up and down the depth chart is failing(I just say that cuz some people think making the playoffs is failing, so some might think that not having quality guards up and down the chart might be too)

    Im just saying, its not all TTs fault..although hes not infallible or anything.
     
  8. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    How about trying a little thread integrity. You are responding to a previous post out of context (pretty weakly) and ignoring that I simply offered my best guess on what would happen.

     
  9. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    My thoughts exactly...I was going to say the same thing but read your post and thought I would take the opportunity to concur. At NO time during this season or any other, was Thurman the primary receiver for the Green Bay Packers or any other NFL team for that matter...
     
  10. gotarace27

    gotarace27 Cheesehead

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    If Jim Bates goes with sherman it would be biggest reason for another team to give him a job. That would be the upside and getting rossley would have to be the downside.
     
  11. NDPackerFan

    NDPackerFan Cheesehead

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    If Sherman goes, I think the logical replacement is Jim Bates. It doesn't take rocket science to see that Bates has done remarkably well with a defense that lacks many playmakers. He was one coach on the Packers this year that got more out of less. I know this is definitely a "retread" statement because the Bates HC thing has been discussed, however, I just don't see him following Sherman anywhere. The Packers and TT would be foolish to let him go without putting up some $$$ to keep him here. I'd personally like to see him remain as a DC but if he insists on a HC job, then I would like to see him get that chance in GB, imho.
     
  12. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    could we get charlie weiss?
     
  13. PackinSteel

    PackinSteel Cheesehead

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    I think Charlie signed a 10 yr deal with ND at mid-season.
     
  14. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    After Walker went down, TT brought in Taco and then followed it up with Thurman. Walker was our #1 WR, and these guys were brought in as replacements to him going down.

    TT waited until last week to get a veteran WR onto the squad. This is after injuries to Walker, Murphy and Fergie -- 2 of which went onto IR. That was a total lack of action on TT's part to provide quality replacements.

    All year long, when injuries occurred TT looked to bring in young, inexperienced replacements. Sherman did make a lot of mistakes as a GM, but one thing he did right was to bring in experienced players when starters went down. That type of reaction to injuries kept GB competitive through some tough times. This is definitely one department TT has failed in thusfar.
     
  15. GakkofNorway

    GakkofNorway Cheesehead

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    but there weren't any good enough veterans free! He brought in gardner right away after he was released by the panthers
     
  16. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    When Bruce, the eternal optimist, is not optimistic about our GM, that is not a good sign. I'm not particularly encouraged either. All I can say in Thompson's defense is that I think he viewed this as a rebuilding year and he wanted to clear cap room and get some younger guys some experience.

    By the way, I don't think beating the world champion Patriots in 2002 was as great as it seemed at the time. They were in the middle of a losing streak when the Packers played them, and they ended up finishing 9-7 and missing the playoffs. As for Grady Jackson, he fell into Sherman's lap off the waiver wire. I don't know if there were any veteran players of that caliber who were available at positions of need during this season.
     
  17. Bobby Roberts

    Bobby Roberts Cheesehead

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    TT looked at Pathon after Walker went down and decided not to sign him:
    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/sep05/355614.asp

    He also could have signed Freddie Mitchell, Jerheme Urban, Troy Edwards, or Scotty Vines. If you think that there's no one worthy on that list, consider the fact that Vines was on our PS and knows our offense. He was picked up by Detroit and has become a starter in front of Rogers and Mike Williams -- 2 early #1 draft picks. Troy Edwards has 7 years of NFL experience.

    Later in the season with Walker and Murphy out, TT didn't sign experienced players again:
    http://www.jsonline.com/packer/news/oct05/360979.asp

    Also, TT never looked to make a trade or grab a WR from another teams PS to upgrade the roster. There are many limitations when looking for street FAs during the season, but you can't say no one is available. Those players listed in a couple articles are only a few available who had experience to step right into our offense and contribute.
     
  18. yooperfan

    yooperfan Cheesehead

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    This is all true but I believe his first intention was to clear much needed cap space. After that I am not in the real know on the NFL like TT is but I believe he has a plan. Unfortunately for us fans who want immediate gratification, he sees things that will come to fruition a couple years down the road that will put the Pack back on solid ground.
    As I've said before, This bump in the road will not last 30 years like the post Lombardi years did. After he left there was a huge vacuum to fill and it took alot of time and alot of changes to do it.
    I don't believe Brett Favre is part of that plan.
    I'm taping Sundays game for posterity and I believe it will be a victory.
     
  19. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Personally..

    I think TT is trying to show Favre the door...(no matter what he may say in public...)

    Some fans on this forum might be ok with that....and are ready to see the Brett Favre era end...

    I..on the other hand..am not...
     
  20. musccy

    musccy Cheesehead

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    I think you're right Pack66

    I live in GB right now, and get that sense from Havel and the other talk radio guys. TT'd never force the issue since he'd have droves of ppl show up at his house with pitchforks and battering rams, but I get the sense that he wants Brett out.


    Although TT passed on guys like Pathon and Mitchell...he did bring in Taco Wallace! :D
     
  21. packedhouse01

    packedhouse01 Cheesehead

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    Bruce, brilliant post. I am not a strong supporter of Mike Sherman. He may be a nice man, but he's not a very good coach. I truly believe there are lots of coaches who could get us to 3 and 13. I also agree that TT has to take some blame here. I don't think Bates however will be the next coach, because if he were being considered, they should have fired Sherman earlier in the year and given Bates an "on the job" audition. I think they'll go with Mooche and Mooche will bring in a heck of a coaching staff and help turn this thing around.
     
  22. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    I think you misunderstand the word primary. There is a big difference between being in the #1 role as a receiver and being a primary receiver. Are you denying that on several occasions this season we have had Thurman out on the field in not only 3 receiver sets but on occasion even in two receiver sets?

    The first Vikings game was turned around by the Vikings simply making sure they doubled Driver and took him out of the game after the half, -- which they did. Fergy went down in the first half and Thurman and Chatman moved and rotated into the #2 spot -- leaving Brett Favre no options. It was the formula that everyone schemed against the Packers thereafter.

    Unless the Packers wanted to continuously try to force the ball to Driver in double, triple and sometime quad coverage they had to run plays where Thurman was the primary target -- and he clearly did not have the talent to deliver. Fergy should have been on the injured reserve -- on any other team he would have been. The Packers being desperate let him rush back and play at less than 50% for most of the season.

    Putting in a claim on Rod Gardner was the first time T.T. made any attempt to bring in a serviceable WR.

    You have all heard me preach that even Brett Favre should be held accountable -- and he should, but T.T. is equally accountable for not giving him viable options. All of his forced passes this year can be traced back to losing not only his top receiver, but Green who was a great receiver out of the backfield, Fischer for a good chunk of the early season, Bubba Franks missing all of camp and preseason and then getting injured.

    He literally had no weapons. The Coaching staff deserves the Kudos for getting a third string Liberty College back ready to go -- but again they had to scale back the offense and limit the number of plays they could call.

    Are you all saying that T.T. has no responsibility for filling around injuries???

    Ron Wolf always stepped up. Blame Sherman all you want but so did he. Thompson sat on his hands and left Favre to suffer all of this bullshit criticism for being wild and forcing the ball -- yeah let's all pretend to not see the context.

    Enough of my rant. T.T. may have a plan -- but he sure as hell is not sharing it, and he didn't show anything other than being frugal this season. I hope he proves to be different in the future.
     
  23. P@ck66

    P@ck66 Banned Banned

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    Thank you Bruce!

    Couldn't have said it better...

    Now to all of the people who think Favre should either retire, sit, doesn't "have it anymore", or should shoulder all the blame...............

    please SHUT UP! :roll: :wink:
     
  24. Bruce

    Bruce Cheesehead

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    Greg: you take a pretty monoscopic view of what is happening in the NFL if you think no decent players were pick up throughout the season -- there were plenty including some that are referenced in this thread. Grady Jackson was considered a high risk move by most in the NFL. Sherman talked with him and took the shot and it paid off. for christ sake is it that hard to give the man credit for anything.

    BTW 9 - 7 turns to 10 -6 and a playoff spot if they don't get their asses kicked in there own house by a Packer squad with 7 starters down and a defense that has to pick up Franz off the street and get him ready in a week. But again by all means don't ever give credit where credit is deserved. Yeah, anyone could have gone into the defending Super Bowl Champions house and kicked their asses. And I guess the fact that the Packers did it to SB champ Baltimore the season before and SB Champ Tampa Bay the season after is not reflective of anything either.
     
  25. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I admit I don't follow the NFL closely enough to know about all the players who are out of work and could be signed. So I've learned something here. However, I never even heard of this Pathon guy, and it says in the article cited by Bobby that Mike Holmgren cut Pathon because he didn't like to play special teams. That's not a very impressive attitude, to say the least. As for Scottie Vines, he was no more qualified than Thurman in terms of experience. Then we have Freddie Mitchell, who everybody knows is no good. I don't think anybody ever signed him. So I'm still not convinced that there were good receivers out there before Gardner became available.

    And by the way, I HAD heard of Grady Jackson, who has always been a monster in the middle when he actually wants to play, and who will usually get a burst of energy when he signs with a new team. He was not high-risk for the modest salary he was paid when he signed, and if the Packers hadn't been lucky enough to be the first team that had a shot at him on waivers, he would've been snapped up by another team in a heartbeat.

    Bruce, I do give Sherman credit for a lot of things. He coached this team to records of 9-7, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6, and 10-6 before this year. The Packers always had one of the better offenses in the league under Sherman, mostly with Wolf's picks, but Sherman boldly went out and got Javon Walker and also acquired some good role players, like Davenport, Fisher, and Luchey. I don't think he was a bad GM. I think he was an average GM, and is a slightly above average coach. There's no shame in that. But he is what he is.
     

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