Kriedler Article from ESPN...

Packersfan43084

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Packers need new course, not an old hand at QB
By Mark Kreidler
Special to ESPN.com

So here comes Quarterback X for another year. He's your guy, because he's on the team you care about. You certainly deserve to know what you're getting for 2007, so let's take a quick, dispassionate look.

From a big picture selling point, Brett Favre returning for a 16th season in Green Bay doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
First off, your guy is 37, heading into his 17th year of getting bashed around in the NFL. Not as nimble as he used to be, though he still moves. Good arm, trending toward the erratic these days. Total competitor. He never misses a start, even when maybe he should.

And here's the rest: Last season, your guy rated 25th among NFL quarterbacks who played regularly. He threw as many interceptions as touchdowns. The team around him was 4-8 before rallying to win its last four games and fall just short of the playoffs, and he sounded an awful lot like a retiring pro after that final Sunday, before he evidently changed his mind over the past few weeks.

You excited yet?

None of this is to suggest that Brett Favre is like anyone else in the NFL, nor that Favre's relationship with Green Bay and the Packers fans could ever be so casually reduced to numbers and skepticism. Favre is the modern history of the franchise. It's no problem imagining that Friday was a good day in Wisconsin, with the QB's announcement that he'll return for 2007 being made public via a story on the Biloxi, Miss., newspaper's Web site.

But for the Packers as a franchise, this is mixed news at best. It suggests, as much as anything, one more season of sliding sideways rather than charting a new course for the competitive future. Because the truth, once you scramble past the legend and the passion of Favre, is that a very mediocre quarterback is going to be behind center in Green Bay next season, albeit one chasing some luminous records.

It's weird, isn't it? Even putting mediocrity and Favre in the same sentence feels like an insult. But it's not, anymore; it is simply the statistical shape of things. Favre was once as dominating as any quarterback in memory, but the here and now is the unforgivable fact of life in the NFL. In the here and now, Favre is just OK back there.

I used to be much bigger on orchestrated endings to brilliant careers, but if there's one thing that years of covering sports suggests, it is that the Ted Williams walkoff scenario almost never happens. For every John Elway, there are three Michael Jordans, Roger Clemenses and Karl Malones. It's so hard to get away clean. No fault to Favre for seeking a better closing statement than 8-8.

For that matter, there's something inspired about a 37-year-old who can still command the position of quarterback, and Favre has lost none of his sense of command in the huddle and on the field. That's especially true for a Green Bay team that is mostly young and quite possibly still on the rise.

But Favre, straight-up, as the quarterback? Well, ratings can lie, but look again at those numbers from last season: 18 touchdowns vs. 18 interceptions; a 56 percent completion ratio; a 72.7 rating that not only put Favre near the bottom of the NFL but was well below his career number of 85.0 -- a more interesting and perhaps meaningful comparison.

Those are the kinds of numbers that may have explained the somewhat less than ecstatic reaction from the Packers' front office when the news broke. A statement quoted general manager Ted Thompson as saying, "The Packers are excited by his decision and look forward to a successful 2007 campaign." Way to lay on the superlatives, big man.

Favre sounded much more enthused than that, speaking of the team's youth in terms of its promise rather than its callowness. Of course, he has plenty of reasons beyond the simply competitive to want that to be so. Favre can pass Marino in career touchdown passes with seven in the coming season, and might even get Marino's all-time passing yardage record in the process.

Only a fool would fail to connect those possibilities with Favre's decision to give it one more run in 2007. No shame in that; it is simply a great player burnishing his own legend. But as for Quarterback X, the 25th-rated guy coming back for another shot in Green Bay, it's no surprise that some will curb their enthusiasm. They're not getting the legend. They're getting the veteran.
 

DakotaT

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Mr. Kreidler knows next to nothing about Packer football. I wonder how well the great Peyton would do behind the o-lines and receiving corps Favre has had to play with (yet alone playing outside). One word for this man ***clown.
 

P@ck66

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Who the hell is Mark Kreidler..??

Just another stupid, blow-hard, scum*** who never played the game...

(Just another ******* who's going to take pot shots at Favre for coming back to a team that is still rebuilding...Get used to it...there will be many such ***** around here. Sounds like a jealous Bear's fan to me..)
 

porky88

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I disagree with what this guy said pretty much because Greg Jennings was banged up all year. We had no productivity out of our TE's and we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.

I dare this guy to name one QB not named Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, or Carson Palmer that could put up better numbers than what Favre did with this type of cast?

Favre showed he can play within a system this year. He has a growing team around him. He is the best QB Green Bay could have for the 2007 season. The free agent market is very weak. Aaron Rodgers has not looked good in practices. No matter how people twists this, it’s a good thing for the Packers.
 

PackinSteel

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After the SB there will be 30 teams that would give their right (and left) arm for Favre (presuming the SB winner doesn't) if he could start for them tomorrow.

1 Team has him... GO PACKERS!!
 

porky88

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porky88 said:
we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.
Driver turned 32 today.
Green turns 30 on 02/16.

Does that include RB years? Much easier for a receiver to have success in his mid 30's than it is a RB. Though maybe Green proves me wrong. None the less that's getting away from the point.

Point is for what Favre had to work with he did pretty good and probably better than most of the QB's in the NFL could with this type of team.
 

Zero2Cool

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Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.
Driver turned 32 today.
Green turns 30 on 02/16.

Does that include RB years? Much easier for a receiver to have success in his mid 30's than it is a RB. Though maybe Green proves me wrong. None the less that's getting away from the point.

Point is for what Favre had to work with he did pretty good and probably better than most of the QB's in the NFL could with this type of team.

Did you include the years not starting? Nope. Ahman 2, Driver 3.
 

porky88

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porky88 said:
Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.
Driver turned 32 today.
Green turns 30 on 02/16.

Does that include RB years? Much easier for a receiver to have success in his mid 30's than it is a RB. Though maybe Green proves me wrong. None the less that's getting away from the point.

Point is for what Favre had to work with he did pretty good and probably better than most of the QB's in the NFL could with this type of team.

Did you include the years not starting? Nope. Ahman 2, Driver 3.

Doesn't that prove that Green's body has taken more of a beating than Donald Driver's. Especially when you consider the position.
 

flapackfan

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Mr. Kreidler knows next to nothing about Packer football. I wonder how well the great Peyton would do behind the o-lines and receiving corps Favre has had to play with (yet alone playing outside). One word for this man ***clown.


Couldnt have said it better myself.

Unlike Kreidler who is a nobody trying to fill some newspaper space, ive watched Favre since 1992. While Favre cant elude the pass rush like a wizard like he used to be able to, who can besides Vick, McNabb & a couple others. I cant think of many if any who have a better arm than him even at his age right now.

Favre's decision making was up there with his best seasons. He had to suffer through way too many drops, fumbles and one of the worst offensive line years he's ever seen. Yea, they didnt give up so many sacks because of max protecting but......... Anyone who knows anything about football knows that if you have to max protect, you will NOT EVER have a prolific offense and your stats will suffer big time. Thats just how it goes. I guess Kreidler didnt know that.

Defense got better at the end of the year like i expected at the beggining of the year but they still cost us a couple of games and have a long way to go to be where i think they can be which is in the top 5.

If i had to play one game and i needed a quarterback(not a team)

When healthy, I would take:

1 McNabb - hands down, best of the best, he has all the tools.
2 Manning - master of the position. One of the best non running QBs ever
3 Favre - when good surrounding talent, is as good as there is STILL
4 Brady - big game QB like Montana
5 Brees -

Maybe some people would change it around a little but hes still top 5 in my opinion.
 

flapackfan

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Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.
Driver turned 32 today.
Green turns 30 on 02/16.

Does that include RB years? Much easier for a receiver to have success in his mid 30's than it is a RB. Though maybe Green proves me wrong. None the less that's getting away from the point.

Point is for what Favre had to work with he did pretty good and probably better than most of the QB's in the NFL could with this type of team.

Did you include the years not starting? Nope. Ahman 2, Driver 3.

Doesn't that prove that Green's body has taken more of a beating than Donald Driver's. Especially when you consider the position.

Green is a senior citizen at that position. Just because Emmit Smith decided to play 9 years past his prime, doesnt mean he was productive. After his record breaking season, he was a shell of his former self. Yea, he produced some good numbers, but nothing overly impressive.

Green is good, but does anyone really think he has another 1500 - 1800 yard season @ 5 yards per carry left in him?? If you do, give me some of what you are smoking. If Green is not fumbling, he is just average. When he is fumbling, he is way below average. I'd like to see him on the team next year again, but not for anything more than 2-3 million. Why not get a fresh 21 year old for cheap who has his best years ahead of him instead of the other way around.
 
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Packersfan43084

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DakotaT said:
Mr. Kreidler knows next to nothing about Packer football. I wonder how well the great Peyton would do behind the o-lines and receiving corps Favre has had to play with (yet alone playing outside). One word for this man ***clown.


Couldnt have said it better myself.

Unlike Kreidler who is a nobody trying to fill some newspaper space, ive watched Favre since 1992. While Favre cant elude the pass rush like a wizard like he used to be able to, who can besides Vick, McNabb & a couple others. I cant think of many if any who have a better arm than him even at his age right now.

Favre's decision making was up there with his best seasons. He had to suffer through way too many drops, fumbles and one of the worst offensive line years he's ever seen. Yea, they didnt give up so many sacks because of max protecting but......... Anyone who knows anything about football knows that if you have to max protect, you will NOT EVER have a prolific offense and your stats will suffer big time. Thats just how it goes. I guess Kreidler didnt know that.

Defense got better at the end of the year like i expected at the beggining of the year but they still cost us a couple of games and have a long way to go to be where i think they can be which is in the top 5.

If i had to play one game and i needed a quarterback(not a team)

When healthy, I would take:

1 McNabb - hands down, best of the best, he has all the tools.
2 Manning - master of the position. One of the best non running QBs ever
3 Favre - when good surrounding talent, is as good as there is STILL
4 Brady - big game QB like Montana
5 Brees -

Maybe some people would change it around a little but hes still top 5 in my opinion.

I hope that list isn't in order. McNabb is a good QB but is brittle and constantly injured. He is not a big-game QB. Most black QB's aren't...
 

bozz_2006

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easy ladies. that writer is just another oportunistic no-name reporter looking for some face time.

-edit- i didn't refresh my browser for awhile, and my post is a bit out of place. story of my life?

-edit #2- to the person who posted above me. :chalflag: white people are DEFINITELY the only ones who are able to perform well in big games. that's why a black head coach will NEVER lead his team to a super bowl title.
 

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I hope that list isn't in order. McNabb is a good QB but is brittle and constantly injured. He is not a big-game QB. Most black QB's aren't...

Thats a pretty ridiculous thing to say. One game does not mean a QB is big game or isnt big game.

Elway, before he won the superbowls was an automatic Hall of famer
Marino is automatic
Warren Moon
Take away Favre's superbowl and he is automatic HOFer
Peyton Manning
The list goes on and on

I picked McNabb as number 1 for this reason. Early in his career it could have been said that he was just a running QB that got by on his athletic ability. He was young. Thats not so anymore. He is the Steve Young of today. He can beat you both ways. His scrambling ability helps the running game. It helps the offensive line. It buys his receivers more time if they are not open.

And by the way, if you look at his recent statistics, you will see that he is a good decision maker. He throws about 3 times more TD's than interceptions. With or without T.O. There is nobody like him in the game. Vick isnt a good passer, Brady/Manning/Favre are not good scramblers so they dont add that extra dimension.

All im saying is that McNabb can go into ANY system and flourish whereas the others need pieces in place to make them succesful. That black/white discussion has no business in todays world.

Within 15 years 2/3 or more of the qb's in the league will be black. Maybe one of them will be big game enough for you.
 

flapackfan

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bozz_2006 said:
easy ladies. that writer is just another oportunistic no-name reporter looking for some face time.

-edit- i didn't refresh my browser for awhile, and my post is a bit out of place. story of my life?

-edit #2- to the person who posted above me. :chalflag: white people are DEFINITELY the only ones who are able to perform well in big games. that's why a black head coach will NEVER lead his team to a super bowl title.

And Michael Jordan sucked.

And Tiger Woods, he's only there as a token. He's lucky they even let him watch golfing events.

And Jeff Hostettler and Trent Dilfer are definitely big game QB's. hell, they won superbowls :) Rex Grossman will be known as a big game quarterback if he wins :)
 

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P@ck66 said:
Who the hell is Mark Kreidler..??

Just another stupid, blow-hard, scum*** who never played the game...

(Just another ******* who's going to take pot shots at Favre for coming back to a team that is still rebuilding...Get used to it...there will be many such ***** around here. Sounds like a jealous Bear's fan to me..)

Kriedler is a sports writer for the Sacramento (California) Bee. He gets to write about the Oakland Raiders and the San Francisco 49'ers but is 2 hours away so he does not have daily contact with either team. Oh he shows for big news but not regularly. Same with baseball(A's and Giants). So he really isn't a local guy covering one team other than Sacramento Kings. Being an expert at nothing and reporting at a distance his opinions are like the rest of ESPN fabricated in his own mind on limited facts.
 

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Green is good, but does anyone really think he has another 1500 - 1800 yard season @ 5 yards per carry left in him?

Based off HIS talent alone, no. However, if the OL continues to improve, he doesn't miss games (like he did in 2006) we get production from our TE and we get a deep threat at WR. I can see him topping the 1,500 mark. 1,800? eeeek I don't see that.

Without said pieces to the puzzle, I think Green is good for another 1,000 - 1,200 yards a season for the next two years. After that, I think he's gonna be washed up. Mind you, that's being generous, in my opinion, also with a side of hope! lol
 

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porky88 said:
Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
Zero2Cool said:
porky88 said:
we had Donald Driver and an aging Ahman Green as our primary offensive weapons.
Driver turned 32 today.
Green turns 30 on 02/16.

Does that include RB years? Much easier for a receiver to have success in his mid 30's than it is a RB. Though maybe Green proves me wrong. None the less that's getting away from the point.

Point is for what Favre had to work with he did pretty good and probably better than most of the QB's in the NFL could with this type of team.

Did you include the years not starting? Nope. Ahman 2, Driver 3.

Doesn't that prove that Green's body has taken more of a beating than Donald Driver's. Especially when you consider the position.

Green is a senior citizen at that position. Just because Emmit Smith decided to play 9 years past his prime, doesnt mean he was productive. After his record breaking season, he was a shell of his former self. Yea, he produced some good numbers, but nothing overly impressive.

Green is good, but does anyone really think he has another 1500 - 1800 yard season @ 5 yards per carry left in him?? If you do, give me some of what you are smoking. If Green is not fumbling, he is just average. When he is fumbling, he is way below average. I'd like to see him on the team next year again, but not for anything more than 2-3 million. Why not get a fresh 21 year old for cheap who has his best years ahead of him instead of the other way around.

I agree with you. I think he's an average player right now. Even with a great offensive line, I still believe he's going to be average. He doesn't have that "home run" threat in him like he used too. He's still a solid back but he's not special anymore.

I also agree that we need a young RB. I'm on the Marshawn Lynch bandwagon probably more than anyone. I really think if we draft him and sign Ahman Green to a 2 year deal we'll have a nice set of backs that can contribute for us. The sky is the limit for this team and that’s one thing this author of the above article must realize.
 

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. Why not get a fresh 21 year old for cheap who has his best years ahead of him instead of the other way around.


With that train of thought, why not apply it to the QB position as well? Brett's best years are behind him, yet we are ecstatic that he's playing another year for the Packers.


I see your point, just offering another view from another perception from what ya said ;)
 

Greg C.

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Definition of a lazy journalist: A writer who ranks quarterbacks according to the "QB rating" system. There are still only a handful of QB's in the league who are better than Favre. He'll be fine.
 

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flapackfan said:
. Why not get a fresh 21 year old for cheap who has his best years ahead of him instead of the other way around.


With that train of thought, why not apply it to the QB position as well? Brett's best years are behind him, yet we are ecstatic that he's playing another year for the Packers.


I see your point, just offering another view from another perception from what ya said ;)

Grrr.....dont get me started so early in the morn......

Yea but Green does not = Favre in anything.

Green has been a slightly above average runningback who has put in 2 or 3 good years. He has done absoloutely nothing noteworthy since 2003 except fumble. I got a memory like an elephant. Some might look at 2004 and say wow what a good year he was having, how come he didnt get more carries, what was he hurt??? No he wasnt hurt, he turned into a fumbling machine and was costing us games so we had to throw it every down half way through the year. Like i said, when not fumbling he's ok, when fumbling, he sucks.

Brett is a first ballot automatic HOFer who has given everything hes got for 260 straight starts. People name their kids after Brett, people are Packer fans because of Brett. Most people dont even know who the packers starting rb is. Brett has MVP's, superbowls, probowls. Plus, hes at a position where you dont have to run around too much usually.
 

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Greg C. said:
Definition of a lazy journalist: A writer who ranks quarterbacks according to the "QB rating" system. There are still only a handful of QB's in the league who are better than Favre. He'll be fine.

Exactly Greg. People are so in love with stats that they forget to look at the content of what happened during the year.

Hell, Brett has 18 td's and 18 ints.

If bubba & co. gives a little more support those numbersre easily 25td's and 12 ints.

Would he be a good qb then? No, theres circumstances that should be looked at. You might look at Favres completion percentage 56% (by far his lowest) and say uh oh, the decline has started. But not even Peyton Manning would be over 60% in that max protect scheme without throwing it to the runningbacks every time. And his record would be 4-12. I saw Brett do about 4 or 5 things last year that i would call mistakes last year. Not bad.
 

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Zero2Cool said:
flapackfan said:
. Why not get a fresh 21 year old for cheap who has his best years ahead of him instead of the other way around.


With that train of thought, why not apply it to the QB position as well? Brett's best years are behind him, yet we are ecstatic that he's playing another year for the Packers.


I see your point, just offering another view from another perception from what ya said ;)

Grrr.....dont get me started so early in the morn......

Yea but Green does not = Favre in anything.

Green has been a slightly above average runningback who has put in 2 or 3 good years. He has done absoloutely nothing noteworthy since 2003 except fumble. I got a memory like an elephant. Some might look at 2004 and say wow what a good year he was having, how come he didnt get more carries, what was he hurt??? No he wasnt hurt, he turned into a fumbling machine and was costing us games so we had to throw it every down half way through the year. Like i said, when not fumbling he's ok, when fumbling, he sucks.

Brett is a first ballot automatic HOFer who has given everything hes got for 260 straight starts. People name their kids after Brett, people are Packer fans because of Brett. Most people dont even know who the packers starting rb is. Brett has MVP's, superbowls, probowls. Plus, hes at a position where you dont have to run around too much usually.

There's no need to dump on Ahman in order to praise Favre. A "slightly above average running back who has put in 2 or 3 good years"? Your elephant-like memory seems to have forgotten that he led the league in rushing yards over a span of about 5 years. He was one of the best backs in the league during that time, and if he plays another year, he will become the Packers' all-time leader in rushing yardage. Yes, he's had fumbling problems, but mostly early in the season, and if you compare his fumbles per carry to the numbers for other great running backs, he's at about the same level as most of them.

Obviously he is past his prime now, though. I would like to see the Pack keep him but bring in a new RB to become the starter, or at least compete with Ahman for the starting job.
 

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i know this hasn't entered the discussion yet, but i was really impressed with Vernand Morency's progress last season. Is he still under contract? Bring him back, bring Ahman back, and draft someone like Marshawn Lynch. Get some real competition going during TC.
 

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