Isaiah Simmons is COMING

[Pokerbrat2000]

I believe one of two extremes occur at this stage in Simmons' career....

This season he showcases the ability to be the player most of the league thought they saw when he was a college prospect - and plays into a solid to big contract in the offseason.

OR

He continues to underachieve and literally be facing next year no one really picking up the phone for him...and at best has to take another one year gamble deal...

I see no middle ground.

Originally, I was thinking that Simmons was drafted by the Giants and just didn't live up to the expectations of the 8th pick of the 2020 draft. But that wasn't the case. He was drafted by the Cardinals, spent 3 seasons with them before being traded for a mere 7th round pick to the Giants in August of 2023. In his 2 seasons with the Giants, his career seemed to decline even more.

I guess as a Packer fan, I can hope that his 3rd home is a game changer and he transforms into a Pro Bowler. I do like the fact that he offers a lot of versatility on defense and special teams. His resume shows him lining up on defense as a linebacker, defensive end, cornerback, and safety.

All that said, if I had to make a bet today, I think he has a shot of making the 53, but as just as a backup and special teams player.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Originally, I was thinking that Simmons was drafted by the Giants and just didn't live up to the expectations of the 8th pick of the 2020 draft. But that wasn't the case. He was drafted by the Cardinals, spent 3 seasons with them before being traded for a mere 7th round pick to the Giants in August of 2023. In his 2 seasons with the Giants, his career seemed to decline even more.

I guess as a Packer fan, I can hope that his 3rd home is a game changer and he transforms into a Pro Bowler. I do like the fact that he offers a lot of versatility on defense and special teams. His resume shows him lining up on defense as a linebacker, defensive end, cornerback, and safety.

All that said, if I had to make a bet today, I think he has a shot of making the 53, but as just as a backup and special teams player.

My guess is if there is a way to make this guy a valuable contributor on defense, Jeff Hafley will find it.

This is Simmons's third team, so this is probably his last shot to have the type of career he likely envisioned. I'm rooting for him.

 

[gopkrs]

I wonder why he played so well at whatever college he went to.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I wonder why he played so well at whatever college he went to.

Probably helps that he was on a 14-1 team, that ended up losing to LSU in the Championship game. That said, he was a very good player at Clemson, winning the Butkus Award as the nation's best linebacker his final year.

Let's face it, a lot of really good college players end up underperforming expectation in the NFL. There are many reasons why that happens, which is why drafting and developing can be such a crap shoot.

 

[Magooch]

He was awesome in college, but like a lot of players in similar situations he was seen as a bit of a "tweener," too big to be a safety but not always having the proper instincts to play LB...
And I think for many players you see a bit of a "big fish in a small pond" type of thing. Now obviously "small pond" is kind of a stretch for Clemson...but my point is that when you are an elite physical specimen/athlete you can still get by on that a long way in college. Once you get to the pros and everyone is as fast and as strong as you it's a different story.
Still, I remember at the time he was drafted Cardinals fans were ECSTATIC that he "fell" all the way to 8. Many at the time had him thought to be like a top-3 talent type of player. So, who knows. Maybe he is just going to be a really late bloomer and/or teams just haven't found the right niche, but at this point he's been tried a lot of places and it hasn't worked. Like I said, I'm not expecting much, but anything is really a bonus

 

[gopkrs]

Well, so he's still a tweener? That's normally a big enough negative so as not to make it. Not always but...

 

[Sanguine camper]

By year six, almost all players are are their "peak" performance. It's extremely doubtful Simmons will give rhe Packers much in the way of LB play especially with Walker and Cooper taking most of the snaps. If he's a really good special teams player and fills in adequately in an emergency, then his signing and season will be a success. The Packers need all the help they can get on special teams!

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Finally saw the $$ numbers for Simmons contract. The Packers got a steal of a deal IMO.

1 year, $1,337,500 contract with the Green Bay Packers, including $167,500 signing bonus, $167,500 guaranteed

 

[DoURant]

Finally saw the $$ numbers for Simmons contract. The Packers got a steal of a deal IMO.

1 year, $1,337,500 contract with the Green Bay Packers, including $167,500 signing bonus, $167,500 guaranteed

If it doesn't work out, only a pretty small guarantee of money they invested. We'll worth the gamble.

 

[gopkrs]

I guess they figure they have a place for him. I would not call it a steal unless he does something well. It seems like we are more or less committed to him for a year. I hope he doesn't take a spot from someone who is better.

 

[tynimiller]

Finally saw the $$ numbers for Simmons contract. The Packers got a steal of a deal IMO.

1 year, $1,337,500 contract with the Green Bay Packers, including $167,500 signing bonus, $167,500 guaranteed

Eh yes and no. He has been a far cry from his athleticism as a football player. Like Hardman I wouldn’t be shocked if he doesn’t make roster truthfully…I bet he does but wouldn’t be shocked.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Eh yes and no. He has been a far cry from his athleticism as a football player. Like Hardman I wouldn’t be shocked if he doesn’t make roster truthfully…I bet he does but wouldn’t be shocked.

I was referring more to the contract.

The $167.5K is pocket change for the NFL. Would say a bargain to get Simmons on the 90 man roster. Where he ends up, I'm not to worried about. If he makes the 53 man, awesome, he's someone to watch and a cheap veteran addition. If he doesn't make the cut, who's going to miss the ham sandwich it cost to get him?

 

[gopkrs]

I was referring more to the contract.

The $167.5K is pocket change for the NFL. Would say a bargain to get Simmons on the 90 man roster. Where he ends up, I'm not to worried about. If he makes the 53 man, awesome, he's someone to watch and a cheap veteran addition. If he doesn't make the cut, who's going to miss the ham sandwich it cost to get him?

So you are sure we don't pay if he doesn't make the roster?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I guess they figure they have a place for him. I would not call it a steal unless he does something well. It seems like we are more or less committed to him for a year. I hope he doesn't take a spot from someone who is better.

Let's put it this way, as of today, I believe it was a worthwhile investment for the Packers. I think we already know this guys floor, but he pretty much disappeared the last 2 years. Then again, he was playing for the 9-25 Giants.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So you are sure we don't pay if he doesn't make the roster?

No player gets paid, their non-guaranteed amount, if they don't make the 53 man roster or on PUP/IR. He is only guaranteed the $167.5K

 

[OldSchool101]

That’s a great contract! We have 4 months at $42k monthly to see what we’ve got.

So there’s a reason Arizona traded Simmons in his contract year for a 7th Round Draft pick. They had 3 seasons to study him. From what little bit I’ve watched him he’s got highlights and lowlights. He will jam a TE or lay Derrick Henry on his back to take him out of a pass play (btw Derrick played smaller when colliding with him which took me off guard, Simmons must look bigger on the field) Then on the next play he will turn to go into coverage and leave the RB completely wide open in the flat. Only to realize he F up and turn around and athletically save a big play for a modest 1st Down gain.

On my novice eye test. What I saw him do best was Rush the QB. Next best he intimidates a TE or bigger RB and just Jams them out of a play regularly when in man coverage. Hes not afraid to pop someone.
His 3rd Best suit is actually tracking a Receiver deep downfield. He’s exceptionally fast long speed you won’t outrun him. His 4.3’s shows up on longer routes. Hes also good at anticipating a WR catching and he’ll turn and swat or push the WR out of bounds. I saw 2 plays he did that he uses his size well in longer sideline routes.
-Then on the next play he’ll give up effort on his Receiver like the play ended.. and his guy will make a down n out catch for +7 yards gain into the sideline. Frustrating because he looked almost lackadaisical at times or just takes himself out if a play. But then on the next play he gives you a wow moment TFL or Strip sack. He’s all over the place good n bad.

I think he’s Teams. He’s blocked Kicks, stripped Runners, he’s good bringing disruption. Might need to refine his Tackling he’s really using his superior athleticism to involve himself, but doesn’t finish the best and idk if it’s laziness but he’s capable of probowl type level if he just could refine his craft and generate better effort.

 

[Thirteen Below]

Might need to refine his Tackling he’s really using his superior athleticism to involve himself, but doesn’t finish the best and idk if it’s laziness but he’s capable of probowl type level if he just could refine his craft and generate better effort.

Whenever I see a player with his kind of profile, one of the first things I do is check their Wonderlic. When i read your summary of his weaknesses, I can't help thinking that this theory matches up pretty well with the observed data. It's by no means definitive, but a Wonderlic is sometimes an indicator.

There are a lot of guys who score poorly on the Wonderlic (which measures overall intelligence), but have a really high football IQ. Xavier McKinney, for example... some analysts felt that the reason he slipped to Round 2 was because of his Wonderlic - 11. So obviously, the poor bastard sucks at spatial geometry and doing math in his head, but his football IQ??? That's as good as anyone in the NFL, and since football is what he does for a living, that's what matters.

Then again, you look at Quay Walker. 9 on the Wonderlic, equivalent to an IQ of about 80. I don't mean to insult the guy, but when you look at it through that filter, it maybe starts to explain all the plays he makes that were.... mmmm... less than bright. Times he just completely made the incredibly wrong decision, the wrong read, etc.

It may be because the guy struggles to quickly recognize schemes and coverage responsibilities, and figure out where the play is going in the split second that he has available to evaluate it. I think we've all seen that from Quay a number of times over the years, although i have to be fair to the man and say he really does seem to have taken some steps forward the last year or two. Good for him; I'm happy for the guy.

But.... Isiah Simmons.... Isiah Simmons weighs in at 12 on the Wonderlic, roughly low 80s in terms of IQ. Quay Walker territory.

And again - I'm not saying the guy is dumb; he's almost dead-even with Xavier McKinney, who has one of the best "football IQs" on the squad. I'm just saying that maybe his overall ability to process information and predict outcomes in real time (especially in a lightning-fast "real time" like NFL football real time) is perhaps limited, and makes a negative impact on his ability to read plays as they develop. And while his abilities in that realm may have been not only adequate but even exceptional at the DI level, it's just 2 or 3 ticks of the clock too slow for NFL level ball.

But on an optimistic note.... coaches and teammates (including Halfley and McKinney) specifically said this past season that in 2024, Quay Walker played the best football of his NFL career. And I think we all noticed that, too - even my wife noticed, in her own way. One game day, she asked me, "who is this 'Kway' guy, and how come you don't fantasize out loud about ****ing him a half a dozen times every single game day like you used to?"

Hafley's legend suggests that he's gifted at finding the right role for every player, and getting the most out of every single guy that can possibly be gotten. I think it's quite likely that he had a major role to play in Quay's 2024 resurrection, and maybe he has the Midas touch for Isiah Simmons, as well.

'On a mission' preparation and confidence has Packers LB Quay Walker playing his best ball

Packers LB Quay Walker is playing his best football these past two games, sparked by his preparation, which leads to fast and physical play.

www.espnlacrosse.com

Packers declining Quay Walker's option has hidden wrinkle fans need to know

The Green Bay Packers hired defensive coordinator Jeff Hafley last offseason to help fortify a defense that allowed the fifth-most rushing yards in 2023. Green

fansided.com

 

[OldSchool101]

I’m cautiously optimistic with Simmons because he has had productive and non productive seasons mixed, most lately non. However that is exactly why is here as it’s about cost also and the $ is right to take a chance on him. Hafley does a really good job putting players in positions to succeed. Particularly with DB’s and LB’s.

Not suggesting he can turn Simmons into an All Pro, but can he lift him into a solid rotational like McDuffie was? Really good chance he can

 

[tynimiller]

I was referring more to the contract.

The $167.5K is pocket change for the NFL. Would say a bargain to get Simmons on the 90 man roster. Where he ends up, I'm not to worried about. If he makes the 53 man, awesome, he's someone to watch and a cheap veteran addition. If he doesn't make the cut, who's going to miss the ham sandwich it cost to get him?

For sure~!

 

[Sanguine camper]

I don't know what 7th round pick John Williams scored on the Wonderlick but he has a major that you see with few if any football players: namely he majored in aerospace engineering. I guess you could call him a rocket scientist. You don't get through all that math and physics by being dumb. That said, I think athleticism is still paramount over IQ when it comes to dominating on the football field even though being smart probably doesn't hurt. Time will tell if he's any better at football then Simmons or Walker

I think it's really cool when guys like Jonathan Taylor and now John Williams can thrive at football at the same time they are taking very challenging classes

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't know what 7th round pick John Williams scored on the Wonderlick but he has a major that you see with few if any football players: namely he majored in aerospace engineering. I guess you could call him a rocket scientist. You don't get through all that math and physics by being dumb. That said, I think athleticism is still paramount over IQ when it comes to dominating on the football field even though being smart probably doesn't hurt. Time will tell if he's any better at football then Simmons or Walker

I think it's really cool when guys like Jonathan Taylor and now John Williams can thrive at football at the same time they are taking very challenging classes

Totally agree, but....

I could be wrong, but I think intelligence could perhaps be correlated with playbook understanding and retention. However, we should recognize that questions about a football playbook are probably not on a Wonderlic test, but things that people could have or should have been exposed to during their 12+ years of education, are on said tests.

That said, one should acknowledge that just because a player gets a low score on the Wonderlic, that doesn't mean that they aren't football smart. A case could be made for someone who just really loved football and focused all their studies and energy on Football, would achieve a super high score on a "Football Only Wonderlic Test". Whereas a Rocket Scientist might fail the same test.

Basically, a Wonderlic score might not be-all and end-all for scouts and coaches to be certain of a players football IQ. Conversations with those players and their coaches is probably a better source to evaluate that.

 

[Magooch]

The thing to remember about the Wonderlic too is that it's a very quick test. The standard version is 50 questions, 12 minutes.

So it follows that it's not just about a person's capacity for knowledge, what they have or haven't learned, their ability to synthesize information, etc....but that it's also about being able (at least for testing purposes) to do that all quickly.

So IMO an obvious shortcoming in this way is for anyone who has processing difficulties or something like dyslexia, for instance. A person might not have any problem answering the questions and understanding the information, but simply might not be able to process the question itself quickly enough to get through it in time. Added to this, there is no "weighting" to questions, so the short/simple ones count the same for your score as longer or more verbose questions AND you're not penalized for wrong scores - but missing a question will negatively impact your score.

Of course a rebuttal might be "well, a person needs to process quickly on the field," which is somewhat true, but IMO not in the same way. Having a hard time reading quickly, for instance, doesn't really correlate with being able to quickly process football-information or not.

There have also been a handful of various studies over the years suggesting that:

A.) A higher score shows no significant correlation with positive sporting performance, draft position, games started, salary earned, and passer rating (in the case of QBs)
B.) There is some suggestion that - at least for a few positions - higher scores have a negative correlation with performance (i.e. higher test score = worse player)
C.) Conversely, again for certain positions there has been some correlation shown between *lower* scores and higher sporting "achievement"
And D.) Some players and executives believe that scoring too highly can negatively impact the perception of a player. For instance Joe Thuney reportedly missed and/or skipped some questions so he wouldn't score too high... there has been some belief that coaches and/or executives are at times turned off by very high scores as these players can be perceived as "threatening" or "likely to challenge authority"

So all that to say in a purely ON-FIELD sense I think its value is basically nonexistent.
HOWEVER...an interesting tidbit I had found recently is the possible OFF-FIELD value: Studies have also shown that the Wonderlic *does* have a "small but clear correlation" between arrests and Wonderlic scores in that players who scored below the mean score were twice as likely to be arrested as players who scored above the mean score. Similarly, players with a publicly-documented pre-draft arrest were twice as likely to be arrested at some point after entering the league. So, while it might be of (very) limited value when it comes to "sporting intelligence," there is some reason to believe that if a player already has preexisting "character concerns" or disciplinary issues, the addition of a Wonderlic score (good or bad) may sway a team's assessment one way or the other...

 

[shockerx]

The thing to remember about the Wonderlic too is that it's a very quick test. The standard version is 50 questions, 12 minutes.

So it follows that it's not just about a person's capacity for knowledge, what they have or haven't learned, their ability to synthesize information, etc....but that it's also about being able (at least for testing purposes) to do that all quickly.

So IMO an obvious shortcoming in this way is for anyone who has processing difficulties or something like dyslexia, for instance. A person might not have any problem answering the questions and understanding the information, but simply might not be able to process the question itself quickly enough to get through it in time. Added to this, there is no "weighting" to questions, so the short/simple ones count the same for your score as longer or more verbose questions AND you're not penalized for wrong scores - but missing a question will negatively impact your score.

Of course a rebuttal might be "well, a person needs to process quickly on the field," which is somewhat true, but IMO not in the same way. Having a hard time reading quickly, for instance, doesn't really correlate with being able to quickly process football-information or not.

There have also been a handful of various studies over the years suggesting that:

A.) A higher score shows no significant correlation with positive sporting performance, draft position, games started, salary earned, and passer rating (in the case of QBs)
B.) There is some suggestion that - at least for a few positions - higher scores have a negative correlation with performance (i.e. higher test score = worse player)
C.) Conversely, again for certain positions there has been some correlation shown between *lower* scores and higher sporting "achievement"
And D.) Some players and executives believe that scoring too highly can negatively impact the perception of a player. For instance Joe Thuney reportedly missed and/or skipped some questions so he wouldn't score too high... there has been some belief that coaches and/or executives are at times turned off by very high scores as these players can be perceived as "threatening" or "likely to challenge authority"

So all that to say in a purely ON-FIELD sense I think its value is basically nonexistent.
HOWEVER...an interesting tidbit I had found recently is the possible OFF-FIELD value: Studies have also shown that the Wonderlic *does* have a "small but clear correlation" between arrests and Wonderlic scores in that players who scored below the mean score were twice as likely to be arrested as players who scored above the mean score. Similarly, players with a publicly-documented pre-draft arrest were twice as likely to be arrested at some point after entering the league. So, while it might be of (very) limited value when it comes to "sporting intelligence," there is some reason to believe that if a player already has preexisting "character concerns" or disciplinary issues, the addition of a Wonderlic score (good or bad) may sway a team's assessment one way or the other...

Yes just the need to have to read the question twice during the Wondrlic **** really sets you back due to the limited time frame. Reading a question and trying to process it is way way different than your eyes watching a play unfold and reacting to that on a football field.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

The thing to remember about the Wonderlic too is that it's a very quick test. The standard version is 50 questions, 12 minutes.

So it follows that it's not just about a person's capacity for knowledge, what they have or haven't learned, their ability to synthesize information, etc....but that it's also about being able (at least for testing purposes) to do that all quickly.

So IMO an obvious shortcoming in this way is for anyone who has processing difficulties or something like dyslexia, for instance. A person might not have any problem answering the questions and understanding the information, but simply might not be able to process the question itself quickly enough to get through it in time. Added to this, there is no "weighting" to questions, so the short/simple ones count the same for your score as longer or more verbose questions AND you're not penalized for wrong scores - but missing a question will negatively impact your score.

Of course a rebuttal might be "well, a person needs to process quickly on the field," which is somewhat true, but IMO not in the same way. Having a hard time reading quickly, for instance, doesn't really correlate with being able to quickly process football-information or not.

There have also been a handful of various studies over the years suggesting that:

A.) A higher score shows no significant correlation with positive sporting performance, draft position, games started, salary earned, and passer rating (in the case of QBs)
B.) There is some suggestion that - at least for a few positions - higher scores have a negative correlation with performance (i.e. higher test score = worse player)
C.) Conversely, again for certain positions there has been some correlation shown between *lower* scores and higher sporting "achievement"
And D.) Some players and executives believe that scoring too highly can negatively impact the perception of a player. For instance Joe Thuney reportedly missed and/or skipped some questions so he wouldn't score too high... there has been some belief that coaches and/or executives are at times turned off by very high scores as these players can be perceived as "threatening" or "likely to challenge authority"

So all that to say in a purely ON-FIELD sense I think its value is basically nonexistent.
HOWEVER...an interesting tidbit I had found recently is the possible OFF-FIELD value: Studies have also shown that the Wonderlic *does* have a "small but clear correlation" between arrests and Wonderlic scores in that players who scored below the mean score were twice as likely to be arrested as players who scored above the mean score. Similarly, players with a publicly-documented pre-draft arrest were twice as likely to be arrested at some point after entering the league. So, while it might be of (very) limited value when it comes to "sporting intelligence," there is some reason to believe that if a player already has preexisting "character concerns" or disciplinary issues, the addition of a Wonderlic score (good or bad) may sway a team's assessment one way or the other...

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

 

[OldSchool101]

I think it's really cool when guys like Jonathan Taylor and now John Williams can thrive at football at the same time they are taking very challenging classes

I can hear my Uncle responding to that
“Maybe it’ll knock some sense into their thick skulls” or something of that sort