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Have you seen James Starks?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Lunchboxer, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Lunchboxer

    Lunchboxer Guest

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    [​IMG]
     
    • Funny Funny x 4
  2. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    That's funny, but not all that funny.

    If he's held out because the toe is not ready based on last week's trial, fine. If he's held out because they've given up on him, that won't be funny at all.

    A time will come where your TB costs you the game if he runs 19 times for 20 yards like today, with odds on it happening in the playoffs. Oh yeah, plus a 15 yard run on the other carry...that doesn't change the picture. Green looks like T-Jax redux and we know how that worked out.
     
  3. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Alex Green has terrible vision, I love the guy though.
    I pointed out to my mom and my little kid something: Right after Green had gotten a handoff and run right into a wall at the LOS for no gain, we handed one off to Randall Cobb.

    Cobb got the ball also heading into a wall of Rams (Packers OL doesn't know how to run-block), but Cobb saw it, and cut way to the left, and found space and gained a lot of yards.

    If, or when, Green ever can start seeing better, he'll do a lot better.
    Remember, Cedric WILL be back sometime in December.
    Starks is just the #3 guy hopefully. But he was in 2010 too for most of the year.
     
  4. Chicocheese

    Chicocheese Cheesehead

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    He was around for a few plays last week. I like Starks more than Green, but Green is really going to have to pick it up. I hope Benson isn't too out of practice come December.
     
  5. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    That's an optimistic guess. I don't think you can count on it.
     
  6. LZ13

    LZ13 Cheesehead

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    I always liked Starks. Hope he can come back. He is the gritty type of runner that makes 3 or 4 yard gains when there is seemingly nothing. His comeback could do the same thing this year as happened in the 2010 season.

    19 of the 20 attempts for Green amounted to only 20 yards?
     
  7. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Yes, sir, according to the ESPN unofficial box score: 20 for 35, long of 15. 8 of 20 were for no gain or minus yards. Only 6 of 20 for 3 or more yards. Here's the tale of the tape...somebody would have to comb the archives, but this is perhaps the worst 20+ run performance in the history of Packer football:

    1st and 10: -1
    2nd and 1: -2
    1st. and 10: 2
    2nd and 12: 5
    1st. and 10: 2
    1st. and 10: 3
    1st. and 10: 3
    1st. and 10: 1
    2nd. and 1: 0
    1st. and 10: 2
    2nd. and 10: 15
    2nd. and 6: 3
    1st. and 6: 1
    2nd. and 5: 0
    1st. and 10: 0
    1st. and 10: 2
    1st. and 10: 5
    2nd. and 5: -4
    1st. and 10: -2
    2nd. and 12: 0
     
  8. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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  9. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    Enough of this BS. "Green has terrible vision"? "Packers line DOESN'T KNOW HOW TO RUN BLOCK"? Wow, I guess the team then ran on all last week must have a horrible defense huh? I guess Green went nowhere last week huh? Let's all puff out our chest and generalize then!

    Every O-linman that's ever been on the field in the NFL has forgotten more about run blocking than you'll ever know. They sure got whipped today, but that neither means that Green suddenly has "terrible vision" or the lineman that blocked the run so well against the bears and colts and texans and seahawks (in the second half) suddenly don't know what they're doing. They guys in the other jerseys are pros too you know, and I'd put a solid $20 that in the not-too-distant-future Micheal Brockers is going to be a pro-bowl run stuffer, if not all-pro. They ran enough to set up the pass and that won't always look the same every week. Get off your high horse and talk about THE GAME instead of the BS global statements. Sheesh.
     
  10. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Maybe you missed this post from a few prior:
    Yes, sir, according to the ESPN unofficial box score: 20 for 35, long of 15. 8 of 20 were for no gain or minus yards. Only 6 of 20 for 3 or more yards. Here's the tale of the tape...somebody would have to comb the archives, but this is perhaps the worst 20+ run performance in the history of Packer football:

    1st and 10: -1
    2nd and 1: -2
    1st. and 10: 2
    2nd and 12: 5
    1st. and 10: 2
    1st. and 10: 3
    1st. and 10: 3
    1st. and 10: 1
    2nd. and 1: 0
    1st. and 10: 2
    2nd. and 10: 15
    2nd. and 6: 3
    1st. and 6: 1
    2nd. and 5: 0
    1st. and 10: 0
    1st. and 10: 2
    1st. and 10: 5
    2nd. and 5: -4
    1st. and 10: -2
    2nd. and 12: 0
     
  11. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    That wasn't the Steel Curtain on defense there. And the Rams #1, and #2 priority on defense was to stop our PASSING game. Yet we still couldn't run the ball at all, except one nice run from Green.
     
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  12. Einstein McFly

    Einstein McFly Cheesehead

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    Right, which clearly means that Green has terrible vision and that our lineman don't know how to run block. Clearly this one game implies huge, global generalizations. According to your statement, Green HAS terrible vision and so had it at Hawaii where he averaged 7 yards a carry and had it against the colts and texans and will have it next week and for the rest of the season and his career, so say you, the guy who knows everything about backs' vision. Our line DOESN'T KNOW HOW to run block, according to you, so evidently the times they've run it successfully this year (and for the rest of the year) didn't (and won't) happen.

    To say, "they didn't gain many yards in the run game this week" is obviously true. No one will dispute that. To say that a back who has clearly shown at least decent vision in the VERY RECENT PAST has "terrible vision" and a group that has clearly done a good job run blocking LAST WEEK AGAINST A TOP DEFENSE "doesn't know how to run block" is totally different. For one, it implies that it's inherent to them as opposed to transient. Second, it put you, some internet clown, in the exulted position to pass judgement on them, now and forever. Don't pretend that it's not clear what you (and others who talk this kind of BS) are doing. Implicit is that you're somehow an expert on how a back should find the hole and if only our professional o-lineman (who have been playing at the highest level available to them their whole lives, by the way) knew as much about run blocking as you, they'd be kicking *** out there every week. Get off it. They didn't execute the plays that were called this game as well as last week. Part of that was probably them not being as on top of things as last week, part of it might be that it's a different defense, part of it might be that Brockers is a better run stuffing d-tackle than anyone the texans have, and part of it might be that they didn't set up the run to succeed this week the way they did in the past because they absolutely didn't need to to win. They had 400 yards of offense, if you didn't notice, so evidently they didn't need to game plan for the run to dominate in order to win comfortably. Like I said before, get off your high horse like you can look down on any of these guys and pass judgement.
     
  13. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Do you mean against HOU? You mean Green running 22 times for 65 yards? That hardly qualifies as "ran all over".
     
  14. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    If you go and look at Green's college highlights (they might still be on youtube...I looked at them after he was drafted), you'll see he played in a spread option shotgun offense, and the big plays he had were on delays and draws with clear shots to the second level. He's just not moving the ball past initial contact in our scheme. You'd also want to see him show more patience (a prerequisite in a zone scheme) and cut it back once in a while.

    He's a good kid from all accounts, and I hope he develops. But from what we've seen so far, there is no evidence he's a reliable 1st. and 2nd. down runner. He looks like a very good pass catcher though, but a guy who works best in space.
     
  15. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    OK, here's Green's highlight reel from 2010:



    Note the spread option shotgun. Note that there are no broken tackles or pile pushing in any of these clips, except for the occasional ankle or arm tackle, from WAC Conference defenders no less. In nearly every case he's free to the second level without any particular need to read for the hole right in front of him. Most of these are draws out of a pass blocking line look.

    The impressive stuff here is the outstanding moves in space and outstanding speed. There was no evidence from his college highlights he could be a 1st. or 2nd. down runner in an NFL scheme, and I don't think that was expected anyway. He was probably pegged as a potential pass down playmaker, not a meat and potatoes tailback.

    So, we should wish the best, but not expect too much of him as a #1 TB. He's a stop gap with no alternatives it would appear, unless Starks gets healthy and finds MM's favor once again. If we didn't have Cobb in the slot, and Finley split out, I'd say I'd love to see him shift to the slot or wideout a la Marshall Faulk, but it's already pretty crowded out there.

    This is what Alex Green was built to do:



    What I'm trying to say is I like Green as a football player but we have a problem at tailback that he's not going to fix. More Kuhn?
     
  16. LZ13

    LZ13 Cheesehead

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    Reminds me of a typical Ryan Grant day, except Grant would have a few more 10+ yard gains sprinkled in to give him a nice average. Many who did not watch Grant each game stated what a great back he was, based on his average per carry, but when it was 3rd and 1, Grant was almost a guarantee for a 3 and out. Grant hit the hole nicely, when there was one, and ripped off some nice yardage. But if he did not get past the first defenders, it was often for no gain or a loss. Starks, however, seemed to get the some yardage even when blocking was not there.

    We still need to keep running the ball, even if it with Green on 1st and 2nd down for minimal gain. Interesting that there is not one run on 3rd down.
     
  17. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Since the title of this thread is about Starks, I'll keep most of my comments in regards to him:

    First comment, he's still recovering from turf toe. That's a painful injury that, like hamstrings and achilles, takes a long time to heal properly. He might have a carry or two here and there but I'd rather let Starks rest so that he's healthy when needed later in the season.

    Second, one of Starks' best attributes is his ability to fall forward for one or two extra yards. When you start looking at YPG stats, that ability to fall forward through the defender makes a huge difference both in your stats and in giving better field position on second and third downs.

    Third, Alex Green deserves some time to adjust to the game. I'd bet that 90% of players come into the NFL and play a different scheme than in college. This is nothing new with Alex Green. The kid needs more than two or three weeks of live play to learn the system and adapt. We'd all like to have a Chris Johnson jump out of the draft for us, but that's usually the exception versus the rule. It takes most players some time (years) and snaps (games) to figure out what it takes to succeed at their position in the NFL.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. LZ13

    LZ13 Cheesehead

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    He fell forward for one or two, after he fought his way through tacklers for 2 (or 3) yds. He was our game closer when we had the lead. No doubt, Starks played a role in taking us from playoff contender (barely) to Super Bowl winner.
     
  19. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I am sure the staff knows how important it is to get Starks there...When he is able, he will be there..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    Starks has been on the bench so long you could use his A$$ as a pine scented air freashner.
     
  21. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    Tough talk from a guy who hasn't hobbled a mile in Starks' turf toe shoes
     
  22. PFanCan

    PFanCan That's MISTER Cheesehead, to you.

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    It took me a couple reads, but I finally understood the basics of the message above...

    So, what's up with all the new guys "puffing out their chest" (sic) with these inflammatory posts? One newbie is calling out the J. Bush haters in a different thread, and Einstein here is picking a fight with Frank. Strange.

    Regarding Green: I am impressed with him once he is out in space. On his 40+ yard run, he nearly juked the defender out of his britches. I haven't seen a Packer RB with that kind of move in a long time. But, as many posters have already added, the challenge for him is to figure out how to get through a NFL defensive front line. Time will tell. But, the clock is ticking.

    Regarding Starks: I look forward to his return and fully expect to see more of him over the next couple of weeks. No doubt that MM is looking at the same Run vs. Yardage list (shown above) on Green's recent history.
     
  23. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    We need a youg guy who can play ALL 3 downs, stay healthy, and be the "guy" for 7-8 yr's.

    Can you imagine if #12 had a guy to hand the ball off to 20-22 times a game? a guy like Matt forte? I watched the sorry Bears win last night but Forte is the type of back we need. He ran to the spot and when he saw the cutback oppertunity it was on a dime and he was immediately north and south. Ugh lucky
     
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  24. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    The Skins released Ryan Grant today. I would be calling him.
     
  25. Oshkoshpackfan

    Oshkoshpackfan YUT !!!

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    I played for 13 years, did you? I suffered from 8 broken fingers, broken ribs, fractured collar bone, concussion and many high ankle sprains......I have the right to be a critic on him. I played hurt even in high school, before they had all these pansy A$$ rules about playing hurt, if you could and wanted to play, the coach let you.

    Starks is a big baby who gets paid better than anyone here to do a job. He is a pine rider, plain and simple. If Lombardi were to have seen this type of wimpy behavior, he would have kicked him in the A$$ hard enough to make a 50 yard field goal.

    I have seen US Marines get turf toe from doing regular PT 5 days a week and they either just sucked it up and carried on or went to medical and got treatment......and were back in action 3 weeks later...what's his excuse?...LAZY, that's what it is, PERIOD.
     

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