Bucks v. Pacers

Heyjoe4

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Like I've been saying since they traded away Holiday to get Lillard, it was a huge mistake, and it would cost them dearly. Holiday was a team player, who knew his role was to create offense, and propel the defense, by neutralizing the oppositions top point guard by dominating him on both ends of the court. He knew scoring and "getting his share of the shots" was not important, what was important is to insure that others get shots that are more easily made. Lillard, on the other hand, is a spectator when he's on defense, and doesn't care if he dominates the ball and takes shots where there is nobody even close to being able to rebound a missed shot. Add to this the fact that he doesn't think it's necessary for him to transition quickly on defense, to insure the opposition can't get easy fast break points.

In other words, as was well stated already, he sucks. Even if he gets 40 points in a game, his horrible defense allows over 40, and his entire game has been neutralized.

I have no idea what they'll get for him, but I hope it's draft picks, not a handful of wannabe NBA players, and a washed up player or two. But, that's what I hate to admit, will probably happen, because people who really understand the game now also see the weaknesses in Lillard's game. The only coach who could have pulled Lillard into the mix, through his coaching, was Terry Stotts, and Adrian Griffin got rid of him before he even got a chance to make it happen. A total muck up that started over two years ago.

Be prepared. It could be another 10 to 20 years before the Bucks become a power in the NBA again, and because of ownership that includes Jimmy Haslam, it might not even be in Milwaukee.

I'm going to wait, hoping for the axe to fall on Horst, and everyone on the sidelines. It's got to be a new start, and if they're wise, they will even trade Giannis and get a bucket full of additional draft picks. What we need is a complete changing of the guard over they next two to three years, and the cap space to sign at least two, maybe three, players, who can be leaders on the floor.
Yeah it's hard to admit that it may be better to break this team up so soon after a championship. Then again, that team doesn't exist anymore.

My guess is that they keep this team together one more year. There is some logic in giving Rivers and Lillard a full year to prepare and to develop an identity for the team. I don't think Lillard is as one dimensional as you suggest, but his offensive prowess doesn't come close to making up for the complete game Holiday brought.

I wouldn't mind if they do as you suggest - trade the stars for a boatload of draft capital and rebuild the right way, with youth. The Packers are a great example.
 

Voyageur

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Yeah it's hard to admit that it may be better to break this team up so soon after a championship. Then again, that team doesn't exist anymore.

My guess is that they keep this team together one more year. There is some logic in giving Rivers and Lillard a full year to prepare and to develop an identity for the team. I don't think Lillard is as one dimensional as you suggest, but his offensive prowess doesn't come close to making up for the complete game Holiday brought.

I wouldn't mind if they do as you suggest - trade the stars for a boatload of draft capital and rebuild the right way, with youth. The Packers are a great example.
One more year would be total disaster. Lillard only has one year left on his contract. If he even stays, he's going to walk away after this coming year giving the Bucks the finger, as a free agent. We'd be totally screwed. Gotta watch those contracts. They're going to be a big issue, because I don't see the ownership willing to pony up so many millions in the luxury tax just to keep a team that's worthless intact, only to see it disintegrate after the upcoming season. That would be pure idiocy.

What's surprising is how few people actually saw this coming. Too many people waving flags, and cheering for what was obviously nothing but a show team, with absolutely no leadership on and off the floor.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I think the Bucks are in a pickle when it comes to "tear it down and start over".

They have very little future draft capital to trade with. Dame's contract is very prohibited for a trade. Middleton is also probably not good trade bait either, due to his contract and age. Possibly, Lopez, Bobbie P. and Pat C. are trade pieces, but age and value might not net the Bucks much by doing so.

The only real way of starting over, is to trade Giannis. I just don't see that happening. Doing such would serve to set the organization up with a fan base that stopped buying tickets if instant improvement wasn't seen.

So what do the Bucks do? Right now, they are probably forced to stay somewhat pat with their big 3 and work deals around them for small improvements of the bench. I could be wrong, but seems every time I checked stats, the Bucks bench was getting grossly outscored by the other teams bench. That isn't a good thing, especially with the age of the Bucks starters.

Firing Rivers? I'm all for it, but then who replaces him? Will that coach be better? Will an offseason help with the chemistry between Dame, Giannis and Middleton? Will that time give a new HC (or Rivers) and a coaching staff time to study the lineup better and change their coaching methods?

I know things look bleak, but we have seen this from other teams, a quick out and then they tear it down. How does that work out for most of them?

I know teams and fans want to win championships, but the bottom line for the owner is money and you don't make money with empty seats. Trading Giannis and returning the the "old Bucks", might accidently happen with no Giannis.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Interesting fact/stat:

This year, Milwaukee’s four most common five-man units were all dominant. The Bucks’ net rating when Lillard, Antetokounmpo, and Middleton shared the floor was +17.5 and they went 28-14 when those three were healthy enough to play in the same game.
 

Heyjoe4

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One more year would be total disaster. Lillard only has one year left on his contract. If he even stays, he's going to walk away after this coming year giving the Bucks the finger, as a free agent. We'd be totally screwed. Gotta watch those contracts. They're going to be a big issue, because I don't see the ownership willing to pony up so many millions in the luxury tax just to keep a team that's worthless intact, only to see it disintegrate after the upcoming season. That would be pure idiocy.

What's surprising is how few people actually saw this coming. Too many people waving flags, and cheering for what was obviously nothing but a show team, with absolutely no leadership on and off the floor.
Hmm I didn't realize Lillard only has a year left on his deal. Geez what was Horst thinking?

Regardless, yeah they do have to trade him in this situation, ideally to recoup some draft capital. Both the NBA and the NFL are becoming games for 20 somethings.

The only way they'd trade Giannis is if he asked for the trade. That's not so far fetched. Off the top of my head I don't know who would be a good trade partner.

Sad that it has come to this.
 

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Hmm I didn't realize Lillard only has a year left on his deal. Geez what was Horst thinking?

Regardless, yeah they do have to trade him in this situation, ideally to recoup some draft capital. Both the NBA and the NFL are becoming games for 20 somethings.

The only way they'd trade Giannis is if he asked for the trade. That's not so far fetched. Off the top of my head I don't know who would be a good trade partner.

Sad that it has come to this.
The look on Giannis' face from early in the game was completely different than what I saw from the start and end of game 5. It's like he could see the whole thing being drained out of the team, as they went back to standing around, waiting for Lillard to decide what he wanted to do. A couple of times, he shook his head. I don't think he and Dame belong on the same team, period. I think Middleton is caught in the whole thing, because he doesn't fit with Lillard either.

What scares me most is what restrictions Lillard can put on a trade. He could put the Bucks in a real bind.
 

Heyjoe4

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Hmm I didn't realize Lillard only has a year left on his deal. Geez what was Horst thinking?

Regardless, yeah they do have to trade him in this situation, ideally to recoup some draft capital. Both the NBA and the NFL are becoming games for 20 somethings.

The only way they'd trade Giannis is if he asked for the trade. That's not so far fetched. Off the top of my head I don't know who would be a good trade partner.

Sad that it has come to this.
 

Heyjoe4

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The look on Giannis' face from early in the game was completely different than what I saw from the start and end of game 5. It's like he could see the whole thing being drained out of the team, as they went back to standing around, waiting for Lillard to decide what he wanted to do. A couple of times, he shook his head. I don't think he and Dame belong on the same team, period. I think Middleton is caught in the whole thing, because he doesn't fit with Lillard either.

What scares me most is what restrictions Lillard can put on a trade. He could put the Bucks in a real bind.
What restrictions could Lillard put on a trade?
 

Voyageur

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What restrictions could Lillard put on a trade?
That's up to him. He can refuse to go to a team whee he don't want to play. So, what do the Bucks do? Cut him? Let him sit out then show up when the season starts, and play like Harden did twice now? That would tear the guts out of the Bucks, and the fan base.

I think it will start out behind the scenes this off season. Him still wanting to go to Miami. Trade him there or he plays out next season, and leaves them holding the bag. That still leaves Miami in a position where they hold all the cards. They can drive a hard bargain with the Bucks, and they're almost helpless to stop it. Let's face it. Lillard never wanted to come to Milwaukee, and he didn't spend any off time in town. He was red eyeing it out to Portland when he could. It's either Miami or back home in his own home, in Portland.

There's another thing he could do to harpoon the Bucks if they don't do what he wants. He could hold out, then show up and play half effort this coming season, then exercise his player option for one more year of the Bucks paying him to tank everything because he's unhappy. Then, walk away into retirement, and the Bucks are left with squat for two years and beyond.

It's the NBA. The players pretty much do anything they want, and the league takes a back seat to it.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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That's up to him. He can refuse to go to a team whee he don't want to play. So, what do the Bucks do? Cut him? Let him sit out then show up when the season starts, and play like Harden did twice now? That would tear the guts out of the Bucks, and the fan base.

I think it will start out behind the scenes this off season. Him still wanting to go to Miami. Trade him there or he plays out next season, and leaves them holding the bag. That still leaves Miami in a position where they hold all the cards. They can drive a hard bargain with the Bucks, and they're almost helpless to stop it. Let's face it. Lillard never wanted to come to Milwaukee, and he didn't spend any off time in town. He was red eyeing it out to Portland when he could. It's either Miami or back home in his own home, in Portland.

There's another thing he could do to harpoon the Bucks if they don't do what he wants. He could hold out, then show up and play half effort this coming season, then exercise his player option for one more year of the Bucks paying him to tank everything because he's unhappy. Then, walk away into retirement, and the Bucks are left with squat for two years and beyond.

It's the NBA. The players pretty much do anything they want, and the league takes a back seat to it.
Good points and I wasn't aware that Dame was unhappy about being in Milwaukee. I only knew that he was "distracted" due to his divorce.

If Dame's head isn't in it, throw out my previous post, but yeah, his contract is a killer for the Bucks and trying to deal him.
 

Heyjoe4

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That's up to him. He can refuse to go to a team whee he don't want to play. So, what do the Bucks do? Cut him? Let him sit out then show up when the season starts, and play like Harden did twice now? That would tear the guts out of the Bucks, and the fan base.

I think it will start out behind the scenes this off season. Him still wanting to go to Miami. Trade him there or he plays out next season, and leaves them holding the bag. That still leaves Miami in a position where they hold all the cards. They can drive a hard bargain with the Bucks, and they're almost helpless to stop it. Let's face it. Lillard never wanted to come to Milwaukee, and he didn't spend any off time in town. He was red eyeing it out to Portland when he could. It's either Miami or back home in his own home, in Portland.

There's another thing he could do to harpoon the Bucks if they don't do what he wants. He could hold out, then show up and play half effort this coming season, then exercise his player option for one more year of the Bucks paying him to tank everything because he's unhappy. Then, walk away into retirement, and the Bucks are left with squat for two years and beyond.

It's the NBA. The players pretty much do anything they want, and the league takes a back seat to it.
Maybe. Lillard is going through a divorce. I'm not privy to what he did with his personal time so had no idea he was taking red eyes to Portland. And I don't know how he pulled that off and made practices. Just doesn't sound plausible.

I expect he'll be back in Milwaukee next year. Horst made some terrible choices, but to stop all the hand wringing here, Rivers deserves a year to make this his team and figure out a way for Giannis and Lillard to thrive together. If it doesn't work, I trust these guys are professional enough to figure something out.

There's too much talent to give up after one year. These guys are pros after all. If Lillard really was that alienated from Milwaukee he never would have started last night. It's not great but it's certainly not bleak.
 

Voyageur

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Maybe. Lillard is going through a divorce. I'm not privy to what he did with his personal time so had no idea he was taking red eyes to Portland. And I don't know how he pulled that off and made practices. Just doesn't sound plausible.

I expect he'll be back in Milwaukee next year. Horst made some terrible choices, but to stop all the hand wringing here, Rivers deserves a year to make this his team and figure out a way for Giannis and Lillard to thrive together. If it doesn't work, I trust these guys are professional enough to figure something out.

There's too much talent to give up after one year. These guys are pros after all. If Lillard really was that alienated from Milwaukee he never would have started last night. It's not great but it's certainly not bleak.
Dillard's problem is not being around his kids. A 5 year old and twins, 2 years old. His wife was actually his girlfriend since college, so this is really a big blow to him. All the stability he had from college on, was with her. The reason he took personal time off from games twice during the season was because he missed his kids, and wanted to be home with them, using meetings on the divorce as his reason for going home. But it was to see his kids.
 

Pokerbrat2000

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Dillard's problem is not being around his kids. A 5 year old and twins, 2 years old. His wife was actually his girlfriend since college, so this is really a big blow to him. All the stability he had from college on, was with her. The reason he took personal time off from games twice during the season was because he missed his kids, and wanted to be home with them, using meetings on the divorce as his reason for going home. But it was to see his kids.
Can't blame the guy at all for having an "off year". I really haven't followed his career until he became a Buck, but explains him being so off some games and on others.
 

Heyjoe4

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Dillard's problem is not being around his kids. A 5 year old and twins, 2 years old. His wife was actually his girlfriend since college, so this is really a big blow to him. All the stability he had from college on, was with her. The reason he took personal time off from games twice during the season was because he missed his kids, and wanted to be home with them, using meetings on the divorce as his reason for going home. But it was to see his kids.
Thanks for the details V. I feel bad for the guy. It may explain the way he acted - like he wanted to be somewhere else, maybe because he did. Regardless of whether he stays with the Bucks or not, I hope he finds some happiness, some consistency in his life. Money can't buy that.
 

Heyjoe4

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Can't blame the guy at all for having an "off year". I really haven't followed his career until he became a Buck, but explains him being so off some games and on others.
Agree. What's amazing was that he played at the level he did. It was an off year by his career standards, but an amazing year given all he was going through. I wish him and his family the best.
 

Voyageur

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I see where Lillard pretty much told Rivers he was never in shape to play all season. That he hadn't worked like he should on conditioning during the past off-season. He blames it on his being in the pipeline to be traded. That is pure hogwash. His emotional baggage over the divorce, and his kids, plus his desire to play in Miami, if he couldn't stay in Portland. Even his run-in with the Portland front office. All part of the unrest in his personal life. But, he can't admit it to himself, or others, because it would make him look weak. Instead, it was the concern of him being traded, and worrying about an injury. Why? He was guaranteed two years of salary, and has a player option to get the third year, even if he can't play. His response was bogus, because the truth would hurt too much. We all can be guilty of protecting ourselves emotionally. It's called being human.

But, to be frank, you could see his game deteriorating the year before he was traded to the Bucks. His emotional baggage had turned him into a total no-show on defense, and less team oriented. Personally, I think he began to withdraw from those around him, becoming somewhat reclusive. Personal matters can cause that.

The Bucks need to trade him to somewhere he'll be happy, but get enough for him that it makes sense. To do this, we all know what needs to be done in the Bucks front office and on the sidelines. It should happen pretty soon, because you wait too long and the guys who can make decisions will be gone....
 

Heyjoe4

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I see where Lillard pretty much told Rivers he was never in shape to play all season. That he hadn't worked like he should on conditioning during the past off-season. He blames it on his being in the pipeline to be traded. That is pure hogwash. His emotional baggage over the divorce, and his kids, plus his desire to play in Miami, if he couldn't stay in Portland. Even his run-in with the Portland front office. All part of the unrest in his personal life. But, he can't admit it to himself, or others, because it would make him look weak. Instead, it was the concern of him being traded, and worrying about an injury. Why? He was guaranteed two years of salary, and has a player option to get the third year, even if he can't play. His response was bogus, because the truth would hurt too much. We all can be guilty of protecting ourselves emotionally. It's called being human.

But, to be frank, you could see his game deteriorating the year before he was traded to the Bucks. His emotional baggage had turned him into a total no-show on defense, and less team oriented. Personally, I think he began to withdraw from those around him, becoming somewhat reclusive. Personal matters can cause that.

The Bucks need to trade him to somewhere he'll be happy, but get enough for him that it makes sense. To do this, we all know what needs to be done in the Bucks front office and on the sidelines. It should happen pretty soon, because you wait too long and the guys who can make decisions will be gone....
Where did you see that Lillard told Rivers he was never in shape to play all season?
 

Pokerbrat2000

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I turned the game off before it was over, so I missed the "Beverley incident". No class for Beverley, letting a fan get under his skin. At least Giannis stepped in and talked to the fan, shaking his hand after.

While I liked Beverley's fire on the court, I doubt he is back in Milwaukee to serve out the pending suspension he will get for this.

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Voyageur

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Where did you see that Lillard told Rivers he was never in shape to play all season?
It's just coming out about the interview. It isn't mainstream yet. Here's one link. There's a bunch of them out there. But, my source wasn't one of these services. I knew it before it hit them from a source I have, who knows quite a bit about what's happening in the Bucks organization.

 

Pokerbrat2000

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It's just coming out about the interview. It isn't mainstream yet. Here's one link. There's a bunch of them out there. But, my source wasn't one of these services. I knew it before it hit them from a source I have, who knows quite a bit about what's happening in the Bucks organization.


So I guess this begs the question of; "Should Horst and the Bucks have seen this coming when they made the trade?"

I would answer that with a "No". If Dame is being straight up with everything, he wasn't in shape due to not wanting to get hurt, with trade talks going on. Also, is he really all in with being in Milwaukee next season? IF he is, maybe we see a different Dame, but more importantly better chemistry with all the players?

I really don't see the Bucks having a lot of options to instantly fix the current roster. They can tweak the bench and maybe trade non-starters away. That said, I really wouldn't want to see Bobby P traded away. He has become one of my favorite Bucks player.

Maybe they can trade Horst to the Pistons for several 1st rounders? :cool:
 

Heyjoe4

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So I guess this begs the question of; "Should Horst and the Bucks have seen this coming when they made the trade?"

I would answer that with a "No". If Dame is being straight up with everything, he wasn't in shape due to not wanting to get hurt, with trade talks going on. Also, is he really all in with being in Milwaukee next season? IF he is, maybe we see a different Dame, but more importantly better chemistry with all the players?

I really don't see the Bucks having a lot of options to instantly fix the current roster. They can tweak the bench and maybe trade non-starters away. That said, I really wouldn't want to see Bobby P traded away. He has become one of my favorite Bucks player.

Maybe they can trade Horst to the Pistons for several 1st rounders? :cool:
I like the Horst trade idea.....

You're right though, they don't have a lot of options. My best guess is that they bring back the starters and Jackson Jr and Portis and try to find better guys for the bench. That's it. It will help for Rivers to have a complete offseason with the team and to put his imprint on this team, both strategy and personnel. Hopefully Lillard gets settled by then and puts some of his personal problems behind him. But being away from his kids is just gonna be hard.

As V pointed out, Lillard came here late and not in playing shape, although I don't think that was the main factor in his play. The Bucks went through too many changes, too quickly and never recovered. Lillard was 2000 miles from "home", was going through a divorce, has young kids - just too much all at once.

It's just coming out about the interview. It isn't mainstream yet. Here's one link. There's a bunch of them out there. But, my source wasn't one of these services. I knew it before it hit them from a source I have, who knows quite a bit about what's happening in the Bucks organization.

Thanks V. Interesting stuff.
 
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Voyageur

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I understand why people would like to believe this whole thing can be saved, but you might as well forget it. If you look at the luxury tax the Bucks are paying, over $52 mill a year, and in the smaller market, it's not sustainable, without championships, or at least late runs. Only two teams pay a higher tax, and the Clippers and Golden State have a wealth of money more than covering those losses, through corporate sponsorships. In Milwaukee, it's a pure loss.

There's no way they dump the surrounding cast and improve the team without going deeper into the tax debt, and based on who they could even get, that debt could end up being well over $100 mill. Not a snowball's chance in hell that will happen.

No. They are going to dump contracts, and make trades, and begin rebuilding, unless they have lost their minds. As for players you lose, a youth movement pretty much eliminates almost everyone, and even Jackson, Jr., in my estimation, is never going to be anything more than a journeyman guard who ends up being a 2nd or 3rd option.

I can hear the Bucks ownership now, listening to Horst tell them that for a few bucks more they can win it all. In the meantime, they're writing out mid 8-digit checks to pay for those comments he's been saying, but aren't working.

Intelligent management says, break the band up. Being a die-hard fan, we might say; "It's only money," but at a certain point, even those with super deep pockets know they aren't going to be able to take that championship trophy home with them when they sell the team. So, why bother?

 

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Meanwhile, Doc has 3 years left on his $10M/year deal and I believe they still owe Mike B. $8M of what would have been his final season (24-25) and Adrian Griffin $12M ($4M/season) for the 3 seasons to come. So just quick math, if they fired Doc today, they would be on the hook for $50M for 3 coaches that aren't coaching the Bucks, that's messed up.
 

Heyjoe4

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I understand why people would like to believe this whole thing can be saved, but you might as well forget it. If you look at the luxury tax the Bucks are paying, over $52 mill a year, and in the smaller market, it's not sustainable, without championships, or at least late runs. Only two teams pay a higher tax, and the Clippers and Golden State have a wealth of money more than covering those losses, through corporate sponsorships. In Milwaukee, it's a pure loss.

There's no way they dump the surrounding cast and improve the team without going deeper into the tax debt, and based on who they could even get, that debt could end up being well over $100 mill. Not a snowball's chance in hell that will happen.

No. They are going to dump contracts, and make trades, and begin rebuilding, unless they have lost their minds. As for players you lose, a youth movement pretty much eliminates almost everyone, and even Jackson, Jr., in my estimation, is never going to be anything more than a journeyman guard who ends up being a 2nd or 3rd option.

I can hear the Bucks ownership now, listening to Horst tell them that for a few bucks more they can win it all. In the meantime, they're writing out mid 8-digit checks to pay for those comments he's been saying, but aren't working.

Intelligent management says, break the band up. Being a die-hard fan, we might say; "It's only money," but at a certain point, even those with super deep pockets know they aren't going to be able to take that championship trophy home with them when they sell the team. So, why bother?

Maybe. I just don’t see them doing anything this drastic, not until they’ve given Rivers and this cast a chance to play a full year together. (If that doesn’t yield results, chances are Giannis will want out anyway.)

It’s easy to overreact to this disaster of a season. But a break up of this team won’t happen for at least another year.

Now, on to the Packers!
 

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Maybe. I just don’t see them doing anything this drastic, not until they’ve given Rivers and this cast a chance to play a full year together. (If that doesn’t yield results, chances are Giannis will want out anyway.)

It’s easy to overreact to this disaster of a season. But a break up of this team won’t happen for at least another year.

Now, on to the Packers!
Like I said. If they didn't break it down now the following things would happen.l

1. They'd have to pay a luxury tax of anywhere from $65 million up to $75 or $80 million in luxury tax for keeping the team together.
2. They're going to lose Crowder, Beasley, and Beverley for openers. None of the three will be affordable, consider cap restraints.
3. They will only be able to bring in minimum salary players. Nobody who has any relative value can be added to the team, despite losses.
4. Next year is Lillard's last year under contract. He walks away, a free agent, and the Bucks would get nothing.
5. Age. Take a look at the age of all the players the Bucks would rely on during the upcoming season. It's an old age team for the NBA.
6. Giannis only has 2 years left that he has to stay in Milwaukee. He can opt out in two-years, and the Bucks would get squat.

Not one thing points towards this team making a run at a championship next year. Making matters worse, with no draft picks for years, the only hope the Bucks have of even fielding a team that's not competitive is to regain draft picks by trading the best players on the team to get at least something in return. If they don't, it's going to be a 20-30 win team for the next decade.

 

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