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Are we getting healthy?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by rodell330, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Injuries are a part of the game every NFL player accepts. There is NO WAY to prevent them. Guys tear knee ligaments playing flag football too. They are compensated well for assuming that risk.

    You act as if tackling by taking out the legs is something new. Its not. It's as old as football.

    Let's say the NFL does what you want and makes low hits illegal. Maybe there is a rash of ruptured spleens over the next couple seasons. What do you do next, ban tackling altogether?

    Its football. Injuries happen. Injuries happen in all kinds of professions. If it bothers you that much I don't know what else to tell you. There's always chess I guess.

    I happen to think there are too many rules attempting to protect players. The whole "defenseless receiver" concept has actually made it worse. It gives players the false sense that they are somehow "protected" when they're not.
     
  2. mkonyn

    mkonyn Cheesehead

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  3. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I'm always glad to be wrong when it benefits the Packers: Tretter was activated today. It's not like he's going to save the season or anything but I think it's a big plus to get him some game action this season.
     
  4. adambr2

    adambr2 Cheesehead

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    Myles White went on IR to make the move for this, I'm amazed that Newhouse continues to dodge the chopping block every time.
     
  5. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    That sounds to me like the parent of 3 teenage kids who just is resigned to the fact that "kids is gonna be kids" and make mistakes, and therefore takes the lazy way out and doesn't do a good job of teaching and monitoring them, just chalking it up to them kids being kids.

    The NFL has a job to do and that's make the game safe as possible, without ruining the product.

    When they put in the rule prohibiting tackling by the facemask, did that bother you?
    When they put in the Brady rule in, protecting QB's knees when passing, did that bother you?
    When they banned the horse-collar, which had been around for a long time, did that bother you?
    So you don't mind seeing guys like Brandon Merriweather take free shots helmet to the face or helmet of Cobb or Jordy or Lacy?
    And you don't mind seeing what happened to Randall Cobb, Dustin Keller, Rob Gronkowski, Jordan Shipley, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer, etc.

    OK, that's the difference between you and I.
    I believe there are many ways to tackle, and that method is one that needs to be severely penalized.
    You throw up your arms and say "well this is football, you gotta let em get em down however they want".
    I find that lazy and naive, as I do much parenting these days.
     
  6. Bus Cook

    Bus Cook You're never alone with a schizophrenic

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    I agree with your views on tackling. I would like to hear more from you about parenting.:D
     
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  7. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Cobb has been cleared to run
     
  8. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    A recent report released by the NFL says 70% of recent ACL injuries are non-contact, in line with historical averages.
     
  9. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    which is great news, hopefully he can get cleared to play Sunday!
     
  10. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Hahaha
     
  11. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Regarding the larger issue of injuries and the NFL, I heard part of a conversation on the radio last week. I can’t vouch for the speaker (whose name I didn’t hear) or the stats he was quoting. He said injuries were up 14% this season and he said this is continuing a trend of increasing injuries after the latest CBA was agreed upon. He suggested that the players went too far in insisting on the reduction of contact during training camp and during the season. The players may have thought it would lead to fewer injuries but according to him (or they just didn’t want to do the work), just the opposite has happened (if his stats are correct).

    Beyond the injury issue, IMO the restrictions on the number of practices hurts draft and develop teams like the Packers more than others.
     
  12. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    lol i know i know..wishful thinking but ah well.
     
  13. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    There is a reason why

    http://media.sportsradio1250.com/the-big-show.htm every Tuesday Sitton is on..I dont have time to sift through it..

    But one of the radio hosts tells him Newhouse is horrible and wants to know why Newhouse is still out there and why Sherrod isnt
     
  14. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    I don't think its just that though. All of these rules over the past few years making various types of hits illegal have had a paradoxical effect by giving players the false sense that they are protected by those rules and so they don't have to worry as much about protecting themselves. That's my theory on it. These rules have NOT led to a reduction in injuries, but they sure have led to a steep increase in fines.
     
  15. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    They're already ruining it.



    Again, let's hypothesize that the NFL does what you want and they ban hits below the waist. What do you do when there is a sudden increase in broken ribs, ruptured spleens and cracked sternums? Do you ban hits altogether, requiring that all tackles be of the grab and drag down variety? Or do you cut to the chase and turn the NFL into the NFFL? Because there's not much more you could do.
     
  16. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    But overall ACL IR's this year are up 43%.
    So it's the CONTACT ones that must be up over historical averages.
    We've seen some in spotlights this year.

    Blame the NFL or blame a few of the young safeties who come in learning to hit that way, I don't care who.
    But lets use our brains to do something to keep guys like Randall Cobb, Witten, Gronk, Welker, Jordy, Finley etc from getting their ACLs blown up when they are defenseless catching those seem routes.
     
  17. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Okay, you start. What's your plan, Frank?

    BTW, why are you so focused on ACL tears? Why not MCL, LCL and cartilage tears or knee injuries in general?
     
  18. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    I just hate losing good players to preventable injuries.
    The year we were 13-0 and lost to the Chiefs, they had lost Jamal Charles and Eric Berry early in the season, like week one, to torn ACLs.

    Charles was just him planting, pop, done.
    Berry was blocked while running, low..... they call that illegal if it's on an OL who is already engaged and they call it on interception returns. But not when a guy is running down a receiver or runner and someone sticks em.
    Look at Brian Cushing.
    He's had back-to-back seasons ended from cheap low blocks to his ACL area.

    Last year

    This year

    These are both hits that are dangerous technique, by blockers.
    Contrast that to how small guys like MJD and Darren Sproles block. They stand tall and block like men.

    There are choices, and the way the 2 guys did it to Cushing should be flags, and the way other guys block should be fine.

    It's not complicated at all.

    I want to protect all stars and all players as much as possible, their legs and knees especially, and necks and heads.

    Equipment and rules are the key. Proper technique.
    There's good and there's bad.

    The way Cobb was tackled was 100% bad, and I honestly wish it was that guy Elam who got "paralyzed" and not Nick Collins. Unfair.

    I was always squimish when D guys went into QBs legs as they planted and released.
    I saw Matt Hasselback taken out once.... then we saw Carson Palmer in a playoff game vs Pittsburgh. That generated controversy.... but then a year or two later when Bernie Pollard did it in week one to the reining MVP and golden boy Tom Brady, then the NFL added the rule to keep guys away from their knees.
    GREAT RULE.
    A little late to save Palmer and Brady, but it might have prevented a lost season from Rodgers, or Manning or Brees.
    THAT IS A GOOD THING.

    We need stars on the field, not on the sideline.
     
  19. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    The data does not seem to bear that out, and I fail to see the logical connection between your first sentence and the second.

    Anyway, here's some data that might help explain things: http://mmqb.si.com/2013/12/04/nfl-injury-increase-2013/

    "In the past five seasons, the total number of ACL injuries has ranged from 48 (2011) to 56 (2009, 2012), including four additional weeks of the regular season and four weeks of the postseason. If the 2013 regular-season rate of ACL injuries continues, the total would be at about 57 before the playoffs begin; the last three postseasons have resulted in between one and four ACL injuries. Only the final numbers will tell the full story, but the 2013 season could yield the greatest number of ACL injuries in an NFL season on record, even if not the dramatic surge it may have seemed like."

    In other words, the 2013 % increase over the mean might seem large, but it amounts to only a handful more incidents than usual if this regular season / post season projection holds up.

    Further:

    "Of the 50 ACL injuries suffered this season, we were able to find clear video footage or detailed descriptions of how the injury happened for 32 of them, and Keller’s was the only ACL injury in that sample size that occurred because a defender went low on his opponent to make a tackle. We recorded eight of these 32 ACL injuries resulting from contact: Besides Keller’s, examples included a knee crashed into at the line of scrimmage, or one offensive lineman accidentally cut-blocking his own teammate, as happened with Pittsburgh’s David DeCastro and Maurkice Pouncey. The other 24 ACL injuries we classified as non-contact injuries. West says that studies show about 70 percent of ACL tears result from non-contact injuries; our unofficial sample, showing 75 percent [for 2013] non-contact injuries, is on par with that figure.[/quote]
     
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  20. GoPGo

    GoPGo Cheesehead

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    Okay, Frank, I got all that. All you really said in that post is that injuries suck and they happen within the rules of football. Now what would you DO about it?

    What I'm telling you is that to get anywhere close to the result you're wanting you're going to have to ban tackling altogether because serious injuries also happen on textbook tackles and blocks, including, yes...torn ACLs. Theissman's career ended on a "clean"tackle.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
  21. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    It might also be of interest to note in the link in the above post 44:

    Over the last 5 years, the Packers are tied for 7th. (with 3 other teams) for most players placed on IR. That's 66th. percentile, not top of the league as some would have you believe. We're about 2 players per year above the median of 38.

    These numbers should be taken with a grain of salt as noted in the article. Some players look suspiciously like "red shirts" when placed on IR.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2013
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  22. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    Perhaps the increase in severe injuries, if there is in fact such an increase, has something to do with the type of players coming into the league. This is strictly speculation, but might be some food for thought:

    There are country-big/country-strong players. They're naturally, genetically who they are, or close to it anyway. Then there are the heavily manufactured players, who by training, diet and/or HGH and other non-banned supplements have added muscle, mass and speed to the maximum carrying capacity (or beyond?) what mother nature intended for them, with miniscule BMI numbers added into the bargain.

    We know advanced training techniques have reached down into the elite "national" high school programs these days, where HGH is also prevalent. Competition is ever more intense for BCS conference jobs as a stepping stone to the pros.

    Perhaps, as the average manufactured % of a typical NFL player has inched up, the components of the body resistant to conditioning, diet or drugs (and therefore unchanged or minimally changed from what mother nature intended) are being put under ever increasing stresses...that would be tendons, cartilage and bone. And what is the relationship between a low BMI and incidence of injury?
     
  23. yooperpackfan

    yooperpackfan Cheesehead

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    Thanks for providing those stats.
    With all the talk of Packers injuries over the years I've been wondering how the Packers compared to other teams in the league.
     
  24. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    Good info.

    We can't do anything about the non-contact ones.
    And we can't do anything about SOME of the contact ones like guys accidentally falling into someone's leg or his own teammate like DeCastro taking out Marquice.

    These stats failed to count the cheap hits/blocks on Randall Cobb and on Brian Cushing because they weren't ACLs.
    I am just as passionate of preventing those injuries as the ACL. Cobb and Cushing had legs broken, as a result of a conscientious choice of technique. That's where the rules come in. Some defenders choice dujoir used to be grab the horse collar. Rules changed that.

    Now because of the rules, guys (except Brandon Meriweather) aren't Chuck Ceciling into receivers heads like missiles.
    But sometimes because of those same rules, they are going way low where they aren't going to hurt themselves, in the leg and knee area. This is THE thing we need the next rule crackdown on.

    Cobb, Keller, Cushing, Gronk, Ovie Mughelli, Jordan Shipley.

    Delmas tried to take out the ACL.....

    Delmas successfully took out the ACL, which ended the career of Ovie essentially.

    Jordan Shipley's Bengal career ended as a result of a similar cheap hit.
    Cobb might never be the same. I'd have that fear in the back of my mind any time I ran a seem route now, especially knowing they won't even get penalized for these types of punk hits. Yes hits, not tackles. This is not tackling.

    Again, why can't one of these cheap shot artists have what happened to Nick Collins?
    Why Nick, who was clean?
    That adds to my bitterness and fire. I miss Nick.
     
  25. Bus Cook

    Bus Cook You're never alone with a schizophrenic

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    12 more days and St. Nick will be back. Have you been good?
     
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