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Yeah, like I'm letting that one slide...

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by tromadz, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    I too quit visiting this site my wise friend, Tromadz.

    Packer fans should be able to get along and agree on some fundamentals.

    Everyone likes Brett Favre.

    However a big fight is on.

    On one side they feel that unlike the Pope, Brett Favre can make mistakes.

    On the other are the folks that say Brett Favre can do no wrong. To even imply it means you have far less affection for the player than they do. They find your lack of faith...disturbing.

    This same Brett Favre who was on the team in 1992 and 1993. Remember in 1994 when the crowd at Lambeau applauded when Brett threw the ball away??

    The Green Bay Packers home playoff record was untarnished. Now there are three loses to underdog teams with lesser QB's in 6 years.

    I hope that play is not the last one of Brett's career. If it is his last it will grow in significance to epic proportions.

    No one is suggesting Brett be locked in a room with a Luger.
     
  2. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    This was borught up in another forum..

    Those pictures are pretty high, 15, 20 maybe 25 feet? Hunters know this answer..You go up higher you see the deer SO much better, while hunting on the ground, hard to see the deer.

    Now what did it look like from Bretts view?
     
  3. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    The same way it's looked for him the last 20 years? He knows that better than we ever would.

    Heck of a post.
     
  4. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    and Bruce said...

    Heckuva post, Brownie...er..I mean...Brucie!

    You forgot the third side, Cali....

    The posters who have an agenda (for some reason) to try and tear down Favre and **** all over him over and over and over again!

    I don't think anyone is saying that he doesn't make mistakes....
    Even Tom Brady does...(sorry Tom Brady worshipers...). But there are those that just want to tear Favre down and revel in it for their own jollies, but they don't have the stones to admit that this is part of their agenda!
     
  5. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    No they didn't.

    The Giants' kicker couldn't put the game away twice on easy FG's....

    That's what took it to OT.

    We should have lost EARLIER!

    If Ruvell Martin could have caught an easy pass..
    If Jason Spitz could have thrown a block...
    If Al Harris didn't make that stupid penalty..
    If SOMEONE could've fallen on the multiple Giant fumbles...
    Etc..etc...

    We didn't take it to OT, the Giants did...
     
  6. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    Someone seems to be missing from your list of culprits (and I agree with the last, except for the missing link)
     
  7. CaliforniaCheez

    CaliforniaCheez Cheesehead

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    In the interest of further debate, WTMJ has an earlier photograph of the play before the ball is thrown.

    [​IMG]

    Does it change any opinions or not??
     
  8. RedSoxExcel

    RedSoxExcel Cheesehead

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    Honestly, I can't take it anymore. I avoided these Favre threads but I still can't believe we are talking about this play TWO weeks after it happened. I hardly ever post, mostly everyone knows me from the gameday chats.

    I truly believe Packers fans are some of the most spoiled fans in all of sports. Look at the last 17 years. You experienced ONE bad season. Sometimes I really wish this was that movie, "It's a Wonderful Life" and I could put a bunch of you in the place of a Vikings or Lions fan.

    YES, Favre made a bad throw. YES, you should discuss it. But it's been TWO weeks. Move on. You experienced a 13-3 season with the youngest team in the NFL. Did you really expect to be in OT of the NFC Championship Game? He had a bad game. So did Romo in a dome. Brady threw THREE Int's (INCLUDING ONE F'N TD IN THE ENDZONE). Morency ran for over a 100 yards, Grant ran for 28. Sh*t happens. Yes you all have a right to walk all over Favre. But isn't two weeks enough?

    I'm sure Favre feels terrible about it, you can't argue that. He's a competitor and I bet it still hurts for him and he blames himself for the loss. But isn't what he has given you for hte last 17 years worth the effort to stop stomping on him after two weeks. You proved whatever point you were trying to prove. Enough already, please.

    Why are there not 20 threads about the inability of GB to run the ball. Or Bush for not just falling on the F'n BALL (that kills me). If he recovers that we have the ball at the 50 with 2 mins to go. ONE PLAY DOES NOT DEFINE A GAME. If you play well as a TEAM, games don't come down to one play. Why are you not talking about how no one could block ONE player on that screen that was a sure TD on 3rd down?

    Some of these posts are insane. Someone said Favre had a good game against Seattle BECAUSE Grant ran for 200+ yards. GRANT FUMBLED HTE BALL TWICE. DOWN 14-0. FAVRE THREW and led the team to TWO TD drives. He had an awesome game against Seattle. He's still got it, he had a terrible game, so did the rest of the team, you stomped on him enough, move on.
     
  9. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    not one bit. the TE will be open (there will be open space there bigtime, and since Brett 'magically' knows the routes...) and STILL nobody is on Grant.

    If anything, Driver is covered tighter than the preachers daughter and makes me more sad.

    Brett played a solid game, but that throw will bug me for a while.
     
  10. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    lol this is a good joke thread.

    You guys crack me up!!
     
  11. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    "The TE is GOING to be open"....and how do you know that before he is ACTUALLY open...maybe the defender is going to be still covering him tighter than Cheesey's a**...? Maybe the defender is going to step in front of him and jump the route when he makes his cut.

    YOU CAN NOT KNOW THAT SOMEONE'S GOING TO BE OPEN, BEFORE THEY ARE ACTUALLY OPEN...unless you think that football players are mind readers and can see the future!

    Oh...I forgot.

    It works like that in Madden, so it must be true...
    :roll:
     
  12. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    CaliforniaCheez...

    To answer your question...NO!

    This has been gone over and over, but if you can't accept the truth, then I can't help you!

    But, I'll let Bruce explain it to you, again!

     
  13. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I'm going to be sorry for jumping back into this one, I'm sure, but... you can't hardly ever wait until the receiver is open before you throw the ball. with the skill of the defenders in this league, if you wait until they're open, it will almost certainly be too late, and the defender will close the gap. Am I wrong in assuming that most football fans would agree that when you talk about how important "timing" between the QB and the receiver is, what you are talking about is how the QB and receiver are in sync with one another, anticipating the other's moves. ie. the quarterback anticipates when the receiver will make his cut, and the receiver anticipates when the QB will make the throw? Meaning, the QB does in fact throw the ball before the receiver is open?
     
  14. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    moreover, look at how Eli and Plax were able to control the game with their own play. Eli was throwing the ball to spots on the field where he anticipated Plax was going to be. Plax anticipated where Eli was going to throw the ball. most of the time, the ball was completely out of Eli's hand before Plax even began to make his move for the ball. that is the only way to beat our all-pro cornerback; don't give him time to react, because if you do, he is going to make a play and the ball will be knocked down. and it's not so much about knowing that the receiver is going to be open, as much as it is about knowing the design of the play and [/i]assuming the receiver will be in position to make the catch. And I'm sorry, but Brett's eyes were locked onto Driver for that whole play. Favre being locked in is what gave the defender an opportunity to make that play. It's because the defender was able to react to the play. You just can't telegraph your intentions like that, the defenders in this league are way too good to be able to get away with that type of play.
     
  15. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    Sorry Bozz..but that's a still picture.

    How do you know where his eyes were "locked" on Driver the whole time?

    He could have been looking the other way before throwing to Driver...

    Also, if he's throwing to a spot on the field, how do you know that he wasn't trying to throw to Driver's outside shoulder and he didn't get enough on it, the wind knocked it down..or whatever?

    The point the other poster was making was that Favre should have known who was going to be "open", before they were open, which is ludacris...or snoop dog..or whatever..
     
  16. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Alright, since we want to keep beating it to death, here is another take for the armchair quarterback's saying what if on a still picture..

    [​IMG]

    1. Claiming the TE will be wide open.. Well the passing lane I highlighted in green, see figure 3 sitting reading the play.. he has equal ground to cover to get to the lane as the TE.. Favre throws there it is either a big hit or at worst throwing into a double coverage situation.

    2. Wiggle with a fade or flag.. I have said it before, that throw with the conditions and pressure or precieved pressure from the left isn't inviting at all. Add to that figure 3 again is sitting in perfect position to support coverage on this throw as well.. Tough throw over the coverage with two defenders doesn't equal a smart throw to me.

    3. This was the key to shutting down the left deep side of the field, if you want to critize Favre, I think it should have been pre-snap, he should have reconized the blitz comming from the left and changed a hot read to the left flat.. or audibled the tightend to run a shallow route making this safety make a decision to come up or play deep.. my guess he would have stayed deep allowing the shallow crosser to be wide open.

    4. Everyone is screaming for the checkdown, while I still think that is the right call, there were two issues on that route. First, it was a late release by Grant, he stayed a beat or two too long in blitz pickup, not that you can blame him as first priority is protection. Second issue I think Brett saw, was the figure 4 didn't engage, now Brett knew that it was going to be a flare route to the right flat. As Trom as beaten to death, yes he knows were the routes are to be ran. The Backer really doesn't have a lot of distance to cover to jump in the passing lane. In a split second decision, it probably didn't appear to be as open as it appeared, since the Backer started to engage when he seen Brett wind up and throw it.

    5. Here is why I think Brett made this decision on this route, it was guarenteed to be a one on one matchup. First, again it was a lazy route by Driver, rounded off and didn't sell the inside at all. But I think part of that reason was it was an option route on his part, depending on what the safety did, Driver would either run a post or out.. safety stayed home and Driver on the fly cut it out. Add to this the Brett is staring that down for a beat or two, the corner had a good break on the ball.

    Again, it is an opinion, but I think if anything it was a combination of a good defensive playcall, good sound play on the safeties parts, a late release and a telegraphed throw and route by both the reciever and QB.
     
  17. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I'm not trying to argue that the TE will or will not be "open", but being "open" isn't what it's all about. If the timing is right, on any given play, it will be one of those that the commentators and opposing fans talk about as one of those 'perfectly run' plays. if the anticipation is just right, and the WR makes his move at the right time, and the QB throws a good ball at the right time, it doesn't matter if the receiver is open or not, as long as the CB isn't given the opportunity to make a play. that's something that Eli and Plax did all night, making Harris look silly, and something Brett and Driver did not do on that play. i'm not really trying to argue, i'm just trying to illustrate that being 'open' is a bit over-rated. We can't know whether or not the TE is going to be open, and Brett can't know either. And we can't guess what the TE is going to do, I agree with you 100% on that, but Brett can.

    ... but, yet, there stands Grant, with wide open real estate in front of him, looking back at Brett, looking for the ball. It is unfortunate that this one single play out of an entire game (which most of the Packers players played very poorly) is the defining point of the game (and of the season, for that matter), but like I have said before, that is just one of the characteristics of this game which we all love so much. It's not good, and it's not bad, it's just a part of the game. it is what it is.

    If the defense is playing poorly (missed tackles, blown assingnments, sloppy coverage, no pass rush), the timing of the offense becomes much less important, but if the defense is playing well (like the Giants were - good coverage, solid tackling, awesome pass rush), timing is everything for the offense. And timing was one thing we didn't have at all on that night.
     
  18. Packers_Finland

    Packers_Finland Cheesehead

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    Hey Fuzz, for god's sake stop posting that Bruce post. We've all seen it, and I personally think he's right. But you should just try to be diplomatic, and from what I can gather that was to worst place to throw the ball to (Driver). I think that if the wind wouldn't have caught it, Driver may have had a chance to catch that one. So it was a poor decision, and a worse throw. And just avoid needless posts, I'm going to say I'm not a Favre hater. I think he played the first half excelently.
     
  19. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    An addition to my post above.. I think Favre is more focused on the safety for the route read than Driver himself.. I truly believe it was an option route based on the Safeties read, it explains why Drivers route was atypical an rounded off.
     
  20. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    First off...Driver was "the guy" making plays all night...

    For some reason, Favre didn't have as much confidence in the the other guys that night...

    Secondly, Bozz...i agree with you that pass plays are based on timing and coverage rather than who is "open"...but many people are passing that picture around, and there are rumors on the internets that Favre had 3 wide open receivers but decided to throw it to the guy that was covered, which is just ridiculous...

    Grant released late....if he would have been a second or two quicker, then I think Favre hits him...

    End of story.
     
  21. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    Agreed.

    Let them think what they will. their opinion doesn't matter. We'll win the SB next year whether they give us any credit or not. It feels better when you don't get any respect and you can just rub their nose in it anyway. I understand that your frustrations come mainly from non-Packer fans disrespecting Favre, and I know that sucks. It's almost like you're the little brother and all the people you know are wrongly disrespecting your big brother, your hero, and you feel powerless to do anything about it Maybe it's not so bad for me, because I really haven't come in contact with anybody bashing Favre the way you described (and i live in Minneapolis, for crying out loud!), but take heart, friend. We'll get 'em next year!
     
  22. Fuzznuts

    Fuzznuts Cheesehead

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    I am keeping the faith..my Packer friend...

    What would be cooler than seeing Brett Favre, MM, and TT hoisting the Lombardi trophy over their collective heads next year around this time...?
     
  23. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    the answer is: nothing!
     
  24. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    BTW... between the TT threads last year and this "new" topic... I think we should market the product..

    [​IMG]
     
  25. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    LMFOOOOOO

    THATS AWESOME!!
     

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