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will the defense still be a problem?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by rodell330, Apr 28, 2013.

  1. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    In 2011 we were historically bad, last year we improved a bit but i wouldn't have consider us a good defense by any means. We suffered some injuries yes but even more so in 2010 yet we won the SB..so we cant use that excuse. Whats preventing GB from being a top defense year in year out like Pittsburgh? Or Baltimore?

    Is it coaching? Is Capers run over? Do we need a fiery young guy running the defense? Or is it truly a lack of talent? By lack of talent i mean not the right prsonnel to run a 3-4. Or is it truly a lack of talent? I mean do we just not have enough speed and athleticism? Im curious to hear opinions on why certain teams can continuously lose Guys rather it be injury, free agency, or retirement and still attain a certain level expectation. We have to develop a mindset like Pitt or Baltimore where no matter who we lose our defense might not be the same..but we not going to play bad football on that side of the ball.
     
  2. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    I think the Defense is getting better but its still a year off. I don't like the inside linebackers and until that area is upgraded there will be issues.
     
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  3. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Agree. Ive been saying this for years that we need to get fast in the middle or get some guys with supreme instincts.
     
  4. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    I'm sure you'll let us know Rodell. Right after somebody scores the first touchdown on us.

    I do say our LB Corp is undersized. No depth on that strong side
     
  5. GeeDogWarrior

    GeeDogWarrior 0 - 0

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    I think we just need some patience, our offense wasn't built in a day - took several draft classes + years to develop the current high scoring offense we've got today.

    And even if we do became massively elite on defense, don't be surprised to see an elite QB put 30+ on us... just ask Pittsburgh when they took us on in the Superbowl or when San Fran traveled to New England last year... an elite defense these days just gives your offense a chance to outscore the other guys. It's the National Shootout League.
     
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  6. SpartaChris

    SpartaChris Cheesehead

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    To the original question of if the defense will still be a problem, I'll say this: There's no possible way to know today, April 28 2013, whether the defense will be an issue or not this season. Ask me after the season and I'll tell you.
     
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  7. slaughter25

    slaughter25 Cheesehead

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    I get the sentiment floating around about how awful our D must really be based on the way we got dominated in the last few games. Its hard to get that taste out of my mouth too. But looking at the season as a whole I see dark spots and bright spots. If we can get another year wiser and maintain average or better health I see no reason why the talent we have cannot produce a top half of the league D.

    As far as the jump from hovering around the 10-15 to top 5 I have to look right up the middle of the D. I feel like we are a bit slow and a shade low on the talent through the heart of the D. That was the one thing I hoped we would have addressed more this week. If we can find some good progress from a guy like McMillan or Brad Jones can make me look like a fool and become a true starter than I think the pieces are in place on the outside to get pressure on the QB and feed the ball into the strength of the D, the secondary. Getting more athletic all around with the return of Perry and Bishop and the addition of a Datone Jones should help the front 7 against the run as well as defending the new wave of read option.
     
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  8. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    There is no possible way to know anything about anything in the future with any certainty.

    That's beside the point. We make probability judgements, risk/reward judgements, about everything in the future on a minute by minute basis whether we know we're doing it or not.

    Making a judgement out how the defense turns out isn't much different that making a judgement about whether now is the time to make your left turn or whether you should wait for a bigger gap. The latter is admittedly of greater import except perhaps if one is betting the farm in Vegas now on the season outcome.

    Will you be be alive at the end of the season to pass judgement? Dunno...you'd be in a better position than I to guess the odds. ;)
     
  9. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    The thing is, our defense was no match for good offenses.
    Brees has always carved our defense up.
    Eli and the Giants killed us last year.
    The Niners.... Adrian Peterson, etc.

    I agree with someone previously: I think our ILB's are the biggest problem if you want to try and choose one.
    Those guys have to A) read & anticipate, B) be quick, C) beat blocks

    I believe Hawk sucks at all 3, and Brad Jones certainly isn't good at the A) part.
    Bishop, IMO, is our best guy... if healthy. Will he ever have the same burst after he tore his hamstring off?

    Also the safeties.... apparently the coaches and MM and TT are just happy with what they have in McMillian, MD Jennings and/or Sean Richardson.
    I do like McMillian, and I love Richardson's size.
    Jennings, don't forget, had the game-clinching Int at Seattle when we were robbed.
    I have faith on someone there as long as our coaching back there is good.

    Injuries will be a huge factor, as always.
     
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  10. slaughter25

    slaughter25 Cheesehead

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    Wouldn't change anything there. Like I said just have to look right up the middle of the defense to find where it is weakest.
     
  11. easyk83

    easyk83 Cheesehead

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    I made a particular point in another sports forum about this. We had three exceptional players that really masked many of our Defense's deficiencies. Since the 2010 campaign we either lost these guys through injury, free agency and age. In 2010 we had Nick Collins who could play single high safety all game every game which allowed our SS to squat on the the short and intermediate routes which forced opposing quarterbacks to take more sacks. We had Cullen Jenkins who was superb that year opposite of Matthews and whose presence prevented teams from sliding help towards Matthews or checking Raji's initial surges with an initial double team as frequently. Finally Charles Woodson was only a year off his DPOY campaign and still dominant, his play slipped substantially in the 2011 season and last year he was something of a liability at times.

    In the last two seasons I think it became more and more apparent that our Defense is made up of a bunch of mismatched parts beyond Matthews and Raji. For instance, Capers was never really able to implement his system, the Capers fire zone heavily relies on zone coverages. In GB he's had to use man coverages almost exclusively, which works fine as long as youre not facing a running quarterback. He's had to scrape together D-lines that relied too heavily on 0 and 1 techniques. His SILB is an overstuffed and converted Will backer(though Hawk did look pretty good last year at 245) a WILB/Rover who can't rove(Bishop is great rushing the passer and playing the inside run but his coverage skills are horrendous) and an LOLB who does a road kill impression everytime opposing offenses run on us.

    My take on this year's units:

    D-line: We finally have enough depth at the 3 and 5 tech positions. Pickett probably backs up Raji in the Base, Wilson backed up by Boyd and Daniels will start at the 3 tech RDE side. Finally Jones and Neal, with Daniels mixing in will handle the less squatty more lanky 5 tech LDE. Sure Daniels

    ILB: Hawk will remain at SILB where he's good if unspectacular and I suspect Bishop and James Jones will split time at WILB with Bish handling the early downs and running sets while Jones handles passing situations and passing sets. Not sure where Manning fits.

    OLB: Matthews, nothing to see here. Perry I think will make a big improvement between his limited PT last year and his full offseason of doing position drills and getting used to his new position, he'll toughen up the position vacated by roadkill Walden and he should add some pass rush ability. He just needs to get used to getting low and bending while rushing from the standing position.

    CB: I think Williams, Shields, Hayward and House are a good group as far as coverage is concerned but the lineup could change as Capers will probably institute more zone coverages. I wouldn't be surprised if Hyde jumps one of them for PT with his instincts and tackling ability.

    S: Bunett is entrenched and I think that McMillan takes over at SS. His instincts speed and tackling ability should tighten up the backend of our Defense. Jennings will get some snaps and he might even see some time as a dime and maybe even a nickle corner.
     
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  12. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Dude really? Haha ill be nice. Lets stay try to stay on topic.
     
  13. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    Im sure we will know if e have a bad defense or not before the end off the season...well att least some of us.
     
  14. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    1) What's preventing the Packers from having a top 1 or 2 D? Along with a top 1,2, or 3 O? At the same time? Please provide me the extensive list of such teams the last 15 years. That just might answer your question, or least give it context. It's like asking "why can't the Packers be a titanic team like the 60's, 70's, and 80's?". They just don't exist anymore.

    2) As for the assertion the Packers were "terrible" in 2011 and only marginally better in 2012-

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/opp.htm

    Packers were 11th in points given up, 5th in the NFC (ahead of the vaunted Ravens D they are supposed to emulating as far as the entire NFL). And we can only hope the Packers can swing a D like the Steelers, if only they lop off the offensive potency and drop 100 points. We can dream.

    They were 11th in yards given up, again 5th in the NFC. Scintillating? No, but not terrible. Being third in points scored in your conference on O, and 5th in your conference on D, which constituted a "down year" for your team, isn't all that shabby. Especially when you've got talent and potency sitting on IR yet again.

    It is a bit much to expect a top of the line O and a top of the D on the field at the same time in this modern NFL. You're just going to have to take what comes.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2012/

    If you care to, click on the link then click on the SRS column header for each conference to sort. It will give you a quick look at just where the Packers, in a DOWN YEAR, ranked against the rest of the NFL in potency, offense and defense, which is 5th. Are they behind Seattle and San Fran. Sure. But we can't be Vegas shoo-ins every year. The NFL isn't designed that way.

    Get as healthy as possible, and have one of several step up in the secondary, and with all the rest the Packers can contend. If you want a team dominant on both sides of the ball for a decade, then you're going to have to hop in a time machine and go back 30-40 years. If teams display potency AND balance at the same time the last 15 years, it hasn't lasted more than a year. We'll see if the Seahawks and 49ers can sustain or not. Recent history would say no.
     
  15. FrankRizzo

    FrankRizzo Cheesehead

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    The health/return of Nick Perry will/would provide a huge boost.
    I didn't love that pick at first a year ago. Mostly it was because I remember him saying he didn't want to convert to a 3-4 OLB (prior to the draft he said that). For that, I wanted Courtney Upshaw.

    But when I saw the speed and power Perry had, I was sold. I am positive Thompson, Capers, made the right call there. Perry can become a force, a huge impact guy.

    But like the rest of our team, he can't if he's not healthy, out there.

    I also hold out hope that all this time will have allowed Capers & Company to figure out some things about how to better defend a guy like Kaepernick, and RG3. Ironically, we open with those 2 this season.

    When we won the Super Bowl in 2010, teams in the NFC realized that to get to a Super Bowl, they had to beat us.
    Atlanta knew they needed more weapons, so they were aggressive and went and got Julio Jones.

    Now San Francisco is the team we have to go after.
    They were lucky as hell last year as far as health goes.
    If they have our luck next year relative to injuries, they're done too.

    But apples to apples, even though they added Boldin to Crabtree and Vernon Davis, I feel we closed the gap a bit adding Jones and Nick Perry, Bulaga back, and adding 2 solid RB's.
    Remember, we were going to go up 21-7 on those ******ers in the NFCDG if Jeremy Ross didn't fumble that punt.

    Give them some injuries at LB and the OL like we had, let's see how they deal with it.
     
  16. Jordyruns

    Jordyruns Cheesehead

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    I would love it if mcmillian could take over at SS I think he has a lot of potential at the position, with his tackling ability and ability to defend the run. If he progresses like he could with a season under his belt he could be a great SS. I just have my doubts that Burnett can play a solid FS. Last time he tried that in 2011 it wasn't good, although that could mostly be from him having to make up for peprah.
     
  17. PackFanNChiTown

    PackFanNChiTown Bear Fan's Bane

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  18. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    I said our LB Corp is undersized, I'll even add that we need another true, Earl Thomas type FS. If our D gets roasted that will be why.
     
  19. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I would be nice if if we bought woodson back for reasonable price. I would feel alot better about our defense with another proven playmaker.
     
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  20. HyponGrey

    HyponGrey Caseus Locutus Est

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    Woodson is anything but a FS. He's a 43 LB. I'm fine letting the young boys on the roster step up and prove they're playmakers.
     
  21. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    He was terrible last season and a complete liability
     
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  22. mayo44

    mayo44 Guest

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    Not sure being 12th in points allowed and first in turnovers forced qualifies as historically bad.
     
  23. ExpatPacker

    ExpatPacker Cheesehead

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    IMO the one player who would make the most difference is Nick Perry. I take it he's going to be healthy and his wrist won't be a problem...I think it's a reasonable hope. He needs to flat-out take over the other OLB role and be a legit pass rusher and edge-setter. If he can show the needed improvement, that would make a tremendous difference to this defense.

    With Clay on one side and Perry and Datone on the other the Packers' pass rushing could take a big step forward. I have high hopes for Datone. He may or may not be ready to be the starter, but I think he'll be an impact player.

    We can't fix all the problems on defense this year. Our middle does look weak. Our safety situation looks the same although McMillan could change that. He did show some flashes last year and he's a hitter. But if other teams have to start fearing our pass rush and not just CMIII, that's a big step forward.

    There may be a dark horse on the roster who unexpectedly makes a big contribution, but that's something I don't think anyone outside of the coaching staff can anticipate. I'm still intrigued by Terrell Manning because the intestinal illness that hit him last year just as training camp began limited his potential to develop severely. I'd also like to see Mike Neal have another injury-free season in which he continues to improve.

    As for Jerel Worthy, well, I just hope he recovers from the ACL.
     
  24. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    I guess i have to spell it out...we allowed quarterbacks to throw for a ton of yards on us. So much we are in the record books for it. There.
     
  25. rodell330

    rodell330 Cheesehead

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    He missed more than half the freaken season..you make it sound as if the guy played every game and got torched geeze. Show me evidence outside of the colts game to where he was a "liability" because Wayne worked all our dbs hat day. I record every game so name another out of the what? 7 games he played?? He got torched.
     

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