Why worry about the running game?

MassPackersFan

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
831
Reaction score
2
Is Colledge the guy to single out? Every good run we've had, I've seen him set up the block that broke the guy free. Go watch Wynn's TD run again.
 

millertime

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 19, 2006
Messages
841
Reaction score
0
KGB94SACKEM said:
First off, with all due respect, this is full of all sorts of contradicting things.

Tromadz, if you are not worried about the running game, that is fine. However, alot of us are and your reasoning does nothing but deflect from the problem. You say that you would rather trust Brett Favre with the ball than one of the RB's, however I remember you saying in a previous thread that the ball in Favre hands was no longer a good idea.

You go on to say that we should ignore the stats against good rushing defenses and look at week 8 when we play a bad rushing defense. That's like saying ignore how we play against good teams and just go by what we do against the bad ones.


You judge a team from what it does every game. I like to think that really great teams go into a game and do what they do, no matter if the run/pass defense is bad or not. Teams play THIER game. Right now our game is passing alot, which is fine, as long as it's working. However, we will have to line up and run the ball soon enough, no matter who we are playing, and we must be able to do it. They are trying now and they are having no success. The RB's are just not good enough and the O-Line is obviously not picking up the ZBS.


The concerns are valid

1. I did not say to IGNORE anything.
2. The reasoning I listed (we don't run often, we played good rush teams. We pass a lot[for a reason]) absolutely deflects from the 'problem' of the lack of a running game.

That is the point of the thread. How is it a problem? Are we 0-4? No, we're 4-0 cuz of our pass heavy gameplans.

When we rush a lot, and if we fail, and if we lose, THEN it is a problem.

You judge a team from what it does every game.

Really? Maybe you do. I judge it by result and gameplan.

Results so far: 4-0
Gameplan: Pass against bad coverages.

I guess that's where we differ.

You think we should run a lot every game(even if it results in bad averages, punts, and overall hurts the team). I do not.

He never said we should run it a lot every game. He simply said that eventually we will have tom which I agree with.

I am soooo happy the Packers are 4-0. But if you talk to New England and Colts fans, they will always be complaining about some aspect of their team. Indy fans complain about defense, New England fans complain about the kickers and their secondary.

Just because a team has a perfect record does not mean that they are perfect. The concerns about the running game are legit in the eyes of many Packer fans.

I agree with you that a great test will be that Denver game. Not because of their weak run defense but because of their great corners. Champ Bailey and Dre Bly will be giving our WR's fits all game. I really think that to beat Denver we will have to run the ball. We'll see though...
 

Zero2Cool

I own a website
Joined
Dec 12, 2004
Messages
11,903
Reaction score
4
Location
Green Bay, WI
all about da packers said:
I don't think we just gave up on it and went to a completely different blocking scheme. Are you seeing our RB going to a specific gap for a run play, or is he picking his spot?

I think dh is saying that our linemen are more suited to drive block as opposed to cutblock.
Not trying to argue or anything here, but didn't Ted draft guys specifically for ZBS?

Eeek!

I'm not going to act like a OL genius, its not my strong spot at all, but don't we have a by average small OL?

I haven't paid much attention to the OL this season except in pass protection.
 

MassPackersFan

Cheesehead
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
831
Reaction score
2
Yeah, lighter quicker linemen. To be honest, Clifton is the guy I was most worried about in the ZBS, especially with his knees. I don't know how it's gone for him though. Haven't noticed him getting blown up or anything.
 
OP
OP
tromadz

tromadz

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
999
Reaction score
3
Location
Chicago
tromadz said:
KGB94SACKEM said:
First off, with all due respect, this is full of all sorts of contradicting things.

Tromadz, if you are not worried about the running game, that is fine. However, alot of us are and your reasoning does nothing but deflect from the problem. You say that you would rather trust Brett Favre with the ball than one of the RB's, however I remember you saying in a previous thread that the ball in Favre hands was no longer a good idea.

You go on to say that we should ignore the stats against good rushing defenses and look at week 8 when we play a bad rushing defense. That's like saying ignore how we play against good teams and just go by what we do against the bad ones.


You judge a team from what it does every game. I like to think that really great teams go into a game and do what they do, no matter if the run/pass defense is bad or not. Teams play THIER game. Right now our game is passing alot, which is fine, as long as it's working. However, we will have to line up and run the ball soon enough, no matter who we are playing, and we must be able to do it. They are trying now and they are having no success. The RB's are just not good enough and the O-Line is obviously not picking up the ZBS.


The concerns are valid

1. I did not say to IGNORE anything.
2. The reasoning I listed (we don't run often, we played good rush teams. We pass a lot[for a reason]) absolutely deflects from the 'problem' of the lack of a running game.

That is the point of the thread. How is it a problem? Are we 0-4? No, we're 4-0 cuz of our pass heavy gameplans.

When we rush a lot, and if we fail, and if we lose, THEN it is a problem.

You judge a team from what it does every game.

Really? Maybe you do. I judge it by result and gameplan.

Results so far: 4-0
Gameplan: Pass against bad coverages.

I guess that's where we differ.

You think we should run a lot every game(even if it results in bad averages, punts, and overall hurts the team). I do not.

He never said we should run it a lot every game. He simply said that eventually we will

Then I misunderstood. My bad.

And I swore I said that in my previous posts.
 

Timmons

Cheesehead
Joined
May 9, 2006
Messages
623
Reaction score
0
Location
Phoenix, AZ
It is getting old watching some members shoot a great topic right in the butt.

I agree with Trom. How can you judge a running game that we haven't used? And I don't know who said it above, but don't look for a running game against the Bears.

One more thing I would like to see more of with our lighter faster O-linemen is the screen play. In the flats or in the middle. It seems that DE's in this league sniff out a screen faster than DT's. I would like to see a few more middle screens, and no, not the freaking shovel pass. (I hate that play!)
 

warhawk

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,922
Reaction score
17
Location
Gulf Shores, Al
My take on this is simple. We haven't run it enough to run it well. MM is looking at that clipboard and see's what's working and says himself he SHOULD be calling the run more but is calling what's working.

IF these guys we're not stout enough to run block I would think that would carry over even MORE in pass protection. If your not big enough or strong enough to hang in there they would be getting steamrolled in pass protection.

Typically an offensive line is either good or not good but when I hear talk about a certain "0" line I very seldom hear they are very good at one thing and very lousy at another.

I'm also not so sure this is all the offensive line. We all know the two guys with any experience went down right befor the season. Now MM has to decide if he wants to go two back with very little experience at either TB or FB.
Will they pick up the pass protection package when they don't run it?

How much of the playbook do they have command of?

Can we get third down production out of a young guy now that Heron went down?

Would it be smart to go two back offense when they could only realistically grasp half the plays?

The bottom line question for Mike McCarthy so far has been "do I throw a two back formation in there and put them right in the fire or do I give the ball to Brett Favre?"

He decided to go with Brett. Smart move. As the RB's get where they need to be to run a two back I'm sure we'll see it work. Until then who can *****?
 

Pack93z

You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
8
Location
Central Wisconsin
IF these guys we're not stout enough to run block I would think that would carry over even MORE in pass protection. If your not big enough or strong enough to hang in there they would be getting steamrolled in pass protection.

Typically an offensive line is either good or not good but when I hear talk about a certain "0" line I very seldom hear they are very good at one thing and very lousy at another.

To me, it comes down to the technique that they are using within the overall scheme. Pass protection is a different beast than run blocking and especially cut blocks. In pass protection you are playing high in the stance, head up and more dependent on hand play. It is apparent they like playing with their pads up, because they are excelling in pass protection.

In drive blocking you need to move the player out of a space, thus you need to play with leverage to beat them. In the successful ZB team, they cut block alot, basically imobilizing the defender and allowing the hole to form naturally. But for whatever reason, we are not cutting the defenders down, instead we are trying to block them head up. What I noticed for a couple of games is that we are playing high in the stance and we are getting stoned at the LOS sometimes we are getting knocked backwards. So between not cutting them down, body blocking instead to high in the stance we are allowing the D to flow to which ever hole these backs try to hit.

To me, it is their technique moreso than anything. The interior lineman are not maulers at this point. Who knows they could be if we actually tried to knock the dline out of the holes. But instead we are playing man up and getting it handed to us at the LOS.

Who knows what the backs have, since they haven't seen a ton of opening yet. But with the creases Wynn had it took on to the house and Jackson is a downhill runner for the most part.. meaning always picking up what is there foreward.

Sooner or later we will find a method that works up front and it will take off.. I think the talent is there.. just execution.
 

warhawk

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,922
Reaction score
17
Location
Gulf Shores, Al
That's all fine and good but you still have to committ to the two back system and believe you can produce out of it consistantly.

When the Packers put the two back typical run formation on the field for a length of time and committ to it is when we will know if it works or if it doesn't.

That means they have to commit to going AWAY from what they have been doing that has been working very well.

I just fail to believe that the offensive line has just lost all the technigue they learned on the ZBS from last year. That theory just seems to fly in the face of reason to me.

All I'm saying is it looks to me like when they put the two backs in there it's for all the world to see they are going to run. Until they consistantly use that formation and have success running their entire offense out of it I doubt it will work that great.

It seems to me that it would be a stretch to put our backs out there for the majority of the game and do ALL of the things they need to do in order for the offense to function properly. Now as the season goes on I can see asking more and more.
 

pack_in_black

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2006
Messages
1,876
Reaction score
0
Location
Colorado Springs
Good post, 93.

I think that the technique is definitely lacking, but I'd say that falls on the coaching staff, not the players. It seems like everything that goes bad, this coaching staff seems to pick up on and get corrected. And if you look around the league, they seem to fix problems pretty quick by comparison.

what are the knocks on the Packers right now?

Run defense: good
Pass defense: good/should become great
Pass offense: Favre.
Pass protection: good/almost darn good
Run blocking: undeclared/poor technique
Running backs: Good in pass pro/No opportunities to run


I'd say we're a good team this year.
 

Pack93z

You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Joined
Aug 2, 2005
Messages
4,855
Reaction score
8
Location
Central Wisconsin
I have said time after time, first they have to commit to the run, so we agree there.

Go check out a December 06 game tape and then pop in a Sept 07 tape... they aren't using the same technique, pad level nor are we putting the Dline on the ground. Don't know how.. we just are playing the same. So you look at the varibles that have changed... Jags out, Philbin and Campen running the show.

Just my take on it.. and yes I spent a little time watching it late Sunday and Monday because I was under the weather and stuck on the couch. But alas not in the locker room or huddle, so that is just an outside observation.

Campen is a fiery type of guy... so the heat will be on the line this week and until it gets cleaned up.

I agree also that we need to have some solid time for these FB to get into a groove and help hammer some of the LBers down as well.
 

warhawk

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,922
Reaction score
17
Location
Gulf Shores, Al
pack_in_black said:
Good post, 93.

I think that the technique is definitely lacking, but I'd say that falls on the coaching staff, not the players. It seems like everything that goes bad, this coaching staff seems to pick up on and get corrected. And if you look around the league, they seem to fix problems pretty quick by comparison.

what are the knocks on the Packers right now?

Run defense: good
Pass defense: good/should become great
Pass offense: Favre.
Pass protection: good/almost darn good
Run blocking: undeclared/poor technique
Running backs: Good in pass pro/No opportunities to run


I'd say we're a good team this year.

What you are saying here is that the coaches have been virtually spot on in every aspect of the game but run blocking technique. I have to say, once again, that really just defies logic.

When I see a run play called I watch the offensive line moving down either right or left. Mostly left. I watch the defense and they flow right down with it and the LB's come up filling the gaps. The math is not there.

And ain't no technique going to fix that. Again, you have to run all your stuff out of those formations which PREVENTS the LB's from shooting gaps and keeps defensive linemen from cheating down line.

If I'm going to be critical of the coaches it's not about an inability to teach technique. I would say our run game formations make that aspect of our offense to predictable.

We run a lot of three receiver, one back, and empty backfield. When we throw in the two backs I see defenses load up for the run.

This is why I say we will have to transition back to a traditional two back offense and run everything in the playbook out of it before we are going to see any great results in the run game.
 

pack_in_black

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2006
Messages
1,876
Reaction score
0
Location
Colorado Springs
I'm really not a good analyst of anything running-game wise, but I've noticed that a whole lot of the negative-yardage rushes have been due in large part to some insanely quick penetration by the D-line up our middle. Like, it's always straight up the center, whether the DT or a DE on a stunt, but they come in almost untouched it seems like.

Maybe it's blown assignments, maybe it's players getting overpowered? :shrug:
 

pack_in_black

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2006
Messages
1,876
Reaction score
0
Location
Colorado Springs
This is why I say we will have to transition back to a traditional two back offense and run everything in the playbook out of it before we are going to see any great results in the run game.

I wouldn't say neccesarily everything needs to be run out of a two back set, but I do agree that those formations seem to just telegraph our intentions.

A higher percentage of passes out of those sets would do the trick then, I suppose.
 

warhawk

Cheesehead
Joined
Dec 8, 2005
Messages
1,922
Reaction score
17
Location
Gulf Shores, Al
pack_in_black said:
This is why I say we will have to transition back to a traditional two back offense and run everything in the playbook out of it before we are going to see any great results in the run game.

I wouldn't say neccesarily everything needs to be run out of a two back set, but I do agree that those formations seem to just telegraph our intentions.

A higher percentage of passes out of those sets would do the trick then, I suppose.

That's running the two back set with a full playbook.

No. We don't run the two back exclusively. I'm not suggesting that. But in order for it to work this formation needs to be out there repetitively on consecutive series and running everything we have out of it.

They run two backs out there now and then like we have and you get a stampede.

My guess is MM looked at all this after losing Heron AND Mo and said "wow, I just can't throw those guys out there and bet the ranch we can sustain drives that way." He was probably right and I highly doubt we would be close to 4-0 right now.

Doesn't mean all is lost regarding the run. I would be willing to bet they could put the two back out there consistantly at this point and have some success with it. As long as the backs are ready to do it all and have the playbook down which should be the case by now.
 

KGB94SACKEM

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
334
Reaction score
0
The issue for me lies in watching the Colts game vs. Denver. Indy is up by 14 in the 4th and they just kept grinding it out, getting first downs and keeping the clock rolling. It also sets up some Play Action and such.

We need to run the ball, sooner or later. If we had success doing it and just were not doing it much I wouldn't be concerned. However when we try it looks borderline pathetic.

I hope they get it fixed or it may be time to think about doing away with the ZBS or finding personel that can run it and/or teach it correctly
 
OP
OP
tromadz

tromadz

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
999
Reaction score
3
Location
Chicago
We need to run the ball, sooner or later. If we had success doing it and just were not doing it much I wouldn't be concerned. However when we try it looks borderline pathetic.

Who woulda thought running it under 20 times total wouldn't get great results.

Oh, just about everyone.

:)

week 8.
 

KGB94SACKEM

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
334
Reaction score
0
KGB94SACKEM said:
We need to run the ball, sooner or later. If we had success doing it and just were not doing it much I wouldn't be concerned. However when we try it looks borderline pathetic.

Who woulda thought running it under 20 times total wouldn't get great results.

Oh, just about everyone.

:)

week 8.


Not sure what you are saying. Because we don't run much that it makes it OK to do it terribly when we try? Jackson is not even averaging 3 yards a carry. That is pretty bad. We can't run the ball, if we could we would at least try. I think that is a problem. We need to straighten it out.
 

KGB94SACKEM

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
334
Reaction score
0
All I see is you saying we should judge our running game off of week 8. That makes little sense. Of course you should be able to run against bad teams. What about the other teams? What do you do when you are up by 7 with the ball with 2:00 left? Do you pass the ball?

You have to run the ball. You do not need to average 150 yards a game but you need to be able to run to put teams away on occasion. I don't worry that we are last in the league in rushing, as we have not ran it much. I worry about the fact that we can't do it when we try.
 
OP
OP
tromadz

tromadz

Cheesehead
Joined
Aug 16, 2005
Messages
999
Reaction score
3
Location
Chicago
All I see is you saying we should judge our running game off of week 8. That makes little sense. Of course you should be able to run against bad teams. What about the other teams? What do you do when you are up by 7 with the ball with 2:00 left? Do you pass the ball?

Easy, you do WHAT WORKS!

Sometimes it's running, but with this offense that has great QB|WR talent, guess what it's going to be. Go on, guess.

You have to run the ball.

Even when it's against top 10 teams and our backs are banged up. Riiiight.
 

KGB94SACKEM

Cheesehead
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
334
Reaction score
0
KGB94SACKEM said:
All I see is you saying we should judge our running game off of week 8. That makes little sense. Of course you should be able to run against bad teams. What about the other teams? What do you do when you are up by 7 with the ball with 2:00 left? Do you pass the ball?

Easy, you do WHAT WORKS!

Sometimes it's running, but with this offense that has great QB|WR talent, guess what it's going to be. Go on, guess.

You have to run the ball.

Even when it's against top 10 teams and our backs are banged up. Riiiight.


Ok, I simply disagree. I don't pass the ball up by 7 with 2:00 left. I would hope MM would run the ball, but with no running game he just might pass. Sure hope that works.
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Top