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Why this draft made no sense at all

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by Oannes, May 5, 2007.

  1. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    Some really need to take into consideration that TT knows he is in his third year and wants to win just as much as anyone else here. Why "should" he have taken that deal? Apparently there was only one other team there that though the deal to be worth it and that was the Eagles(whom were 6 spots behind us and cleveland had been trying to make that deal since Miami passed on Quinn). You're assuming that somehow Harrell is already a failure by saying he "should" have taken that deal.
     
  2. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Where did I attack you, pyle?
     
  3. Oannes

    Oannes Cheesehead

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    Dallas made that deal...not Philly. I never once said, or assumed, Harrell was, or will be, a failure. Would you rather have the opporunity to draft one Justin Harrell or two Justin Harrell's? I'll take two.

    It's undeniable that Harrell is injury prone and still wasn't 100% at the time of his drafting.

    Just because TT is a GM in his 3rd year doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. Mike Sherman traded up for BJ Sander and that wasn't in his first draft rather it was his LAST. Mike Sherman didn't get progressively better at his drafting acumen over time. He appeared to get worse. The Packers job was Mike Sherman's dream job, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a GM. He was. TT is our current GM and in another year, or two, may be judged a failure the same as Sherman whether his heart was in the right place, or not.

    Just because we had a lot of last year's picks start doesn't mean it was a good draft. We had nobody on the Oline where most of our picks got playing time. Just because Nick Collins, Jason Spitz, Tony Moll, and Colledge are getting playing time, does NOT mean they were great picks, or that Ted is a great drafter. Hawk was a TOP 5 pick. It gets harder to fail the higher you pick. Jennings was a nice pick but he's not the second coming of Jerry Rice. We haven't gotten a star out of the first two drafts. Sherman's best pick, and only true star, Javon Walker, is gone. Kampman in on the cusp of greatness if he can put another season together like last one.

    I hope we get some studs out of these past drafts. I'm not expecting it though.
     
  4. Oannes

    Oannes Cheesehead

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    Dallas made that deal...not Philly. I never once said, or assumed, Harrell was, or will be, a failure. Would you rather have the opporunity to draft one Justin Harrell or two Justin Harrell's? I'll take two.

    It's undeniable that Harrell is injury prone and still wasn't 100% at the time of his drafting.

    Just because TT is a GM in his 3rd year doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. Mike Sherman traded up for BJ Sander and that wasn't in his first draft rather it was his LAST. Mike Sherman didn't get progressively better at his drafting acumen over time. He appeared to get worse. The Packers job was Mike Sherman's dream job, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a failure as a GM. He was. TT is our current GM and in another year, or two, may be judged a failure the same as Sherman whether his heart was in the right place, or not.

    Just because we had a lot of last year's picks start doesn't mean it was a good draft. We had nobody on the Oline where most of our picks got playing time. Just because Nick Collins, Jason Spitz, Tony Moll, and Colledge are getting playing time, does NOT mean they were great picks, or that Ted is a great drafter. Hawk was a TOP 5 pick. It gets harder to fail the higher you pick. Jennings was a nice pick but he's not the second coming of Jerry Rice. We haven't gotten a star out of the first two drafts. Sherman's best pick, and only true star, Javon Walker, is gone. Kampman in on the cusp of greatness if he can put another season together like last one.

    I hope we get some studs out of these past drafts. I'm not expecting it though.
     
  5. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    How in the world can you judge TT's drafts yet about "stars" ? Aj Hawk is the best bet and he's had ONE SEASON in the NFL. Just because "your not expecting it" doesn't mean it won't happen. In fact that just tells me your only looking at negatives. But like I said to say TT SHOULD HAVE made that deal is assuming(wether you like it or not) that Harrell is already a failure(you already just said you aren't expecting it). Like I said many other teams didn't deam that deal worth it. If the Browns were willing to offer a proven player like a winslow then it would have been worth it because as the draft falls you have a better shot at getting help for your team at 16 than the second round. I don't really care for the "we would have had two top 15 picks next year" when that is pure speculation. No ones crystal ball can tell them what is in the cards for this year or next.
     
  6. Zero2Cool

    Zero2Cool I own a website

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    Ted could have traded that 5th overall last year but chose to take Hawk. Why do some not give Ted credit for that? I remember Tony Mandrich was supposed to be a 'safe' pick back in the day.
     
  7. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    It's going to be all about hindsight. If Harrell takes off and becomes a monster in the middle of the line no one will care about "the possible trade"...if he doesn't then people will be screaming at the top of their lungs.
     
  8. Oannes

    Oannes Cheesehead

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    We're all going to see where those two picks would've been.

    It's funny how the "crystal ball" argument is brought up in reference to what "might" happen with those picks, and as a way to discount making the deal, but it's ignored when we're talking about how Harrell will turn out. We don't have the exact same crystal ball to tell us that an injured Harrell is a better move than taking two likely, yes...likely, top 15 picks. Logic dictates those picks will be Top 15 picks.

    There's a stronger argument for those picks being Top 15 than there is for Harrell being better than what those two future picks would've brought to the table, a lot more.

    Let's cut to the chase... If those picks turn out to be Top 15 picks, as they should, will hindsight tell you it was a mistake to not make the deal? What numbers does Harrell have to put up to make his selection a better move than taking the Cleveland deal? Corey Williams had 7 sacks last season at DT. I think it's fair to say Harrell better have more than 7 sacks and a huge improvement to our run and overall defense. If he misses half the season due to injury this will be a monumental blunder.

    It's important to point out that the teams who passed on the Cleveland deal after Green Bay were... Jacksonville, NY Giants, Tennessee, Cincinnati, and Denver. Everyone of those teams has reasonable expectations to make a playoff run. These teams appear to subscribe to a "win now" philosophy meaning they would bypass such an offer. Dallas is in the same boat, but Jerry Jones makes bold moves. We aren't on the verge of any sort of playoff run, therefore, we should've taken that deal.

    Why isn't anyone upset with him trading down the two times he did? The trade downs were not as valuable as picking up an extra 1st, and likely high first next year but people seem comfortable with getting Brandon Jackson, James Jones and Aaron Rouse.

    Go on record all those who think it was wise to take Harrell over the Cleveland deal. Tell me what he has to do to justify passing on that deal? Also, tell me what record we need to have to make this wise. I think it's an uphill climb to get back to 8-8 this season. Also, tell me where Cleveland's pick has to fall to justify not adding it.

    It's really going to sting if Cleveland is picking 3rd again.
     
  9. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    I feel an argument can be made for both, but am not going to judge this by hindsight. Harrell is a risk, just as hoping for two top 15 is a risk. By saying they "should" be top 15 you are saying the Packers are either A.) going to fail this season or B.)should give up the season in hopes for two top 15 picks next year. Then you are also leaving your fate in the hands of what the Browns do next year. Sorry, but that scenerio will provide itself more often than you can imagine and you don't just jump on it at every whim. Harrell is a DT that has a ton of potential and is ok'ed by the doctors.

    No it won't be a mistake to me because it's all a crapshoot and a big risk. Your statement about Corey Williams vs Harrell shows me how little you know about the game of football. Gilbert Brown never had big numbers, but how valuable to the team do you feel he was at stopping the run and freeing up other players? Ever since the days of Jackson and now Pickett we have had a revolving door at the other DT position and Harrell offers a chance at not only stability, but to have another major run stuffer that gets a push up the field on passing downs which leads to more production from the linebackers as well as more sacks off the edge. You don't judge a DT in numbers. That's like saying a corner that doesn't have many ints is a bad corner.

    Are you serious? Tell me how does Jacksonville have a better chance at a playoff run than we do? They are unsettled at QB...have problems on the Oline AND at LB along with depth in the defensive backfield. They are also in the much tougher AFC. The Giants? Who is going to protect Manning? Is Manning going to be more consistant? Who is going to replace Barber? Who is going to help their aging reciever corps? They also have a lame duck coach. Their only hope is that they are in the NFC. The Titans? You mean that team that didn't help Young AT ALL in the draft? They also lost Travis Henry(their best RB), Drew Bennet and Bobby Wade their leading recievers? They are also in a division with the so called playoff contenders(the jags) and the SB champs Colts. Cincinatti is plausible, but they aren't withotu their questions, too. No Henry. Multiple arrests that have taken an effect on that team. Denver is in a "win now" mode? That's why they benched Plummer and went with a rookie the finale part of last year while in the middle of a playoff run? Bottom line is that these teams were 8-8 to 9-7 last year. Not a whole lot better than we were so it's amazing to me you can see a bunch of positives for these teams and not the Packers.

    For arguments sake let me just ask you what is sooooo impressive about aaron ross, michael griffin, and jarvis moss that makes THEM better than that trade since you seem to want to make arguments for these teams NOT taking that trade? I liked the Reggie Nelson and Leon Hall picks(although Hall is vastly overrated).

    Why does someone have to be upset that he traded down? Word is he wanted Jarrett or Rice and both got taken just before we picked so he traded down and got Jackson. Go on record for what? That's a bunch of emotional jargain that makes very little sense. Say Cleveland starts 4-0 and then Quinn or Thomas get injured so they go 5-11 or 6-10....then are you going to be on here "see!! see!! I told you so!!" All emotional jargain. I couldn't care less what could "possibly" happen with those picks. I'm hoping for a good season from the pack and am happy with Harrell.

    Sounds to me like it's really going to sting for you if th Packers end up doing well.
     
  10. refpacker

    refpacker Cheesehead

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    Jags have a better d-fense and running game....

    Titans have VY....Nough said, who needs help?
     
  11. retiredgrampa

    retiredgrampa Cheesehead

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    Not to unnecessarily rile the pot, but to all those who continue to state that Harrell is STILL injured....just remember that he recently turned in 32 reps on the weights. Now if that's "injured", I hope it happens to the rest of our DL. The biceps are FINE. He'll show it soon enough.
     
  12. refpacker

    refpacker Cheesehead

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    im not saying that justin is still innjured...he prolly isnt...he prolly will be a good pick.....I just think there were alot of other players out there and other directions we could have gone....
     
  13. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    Wow. You're right. These teams are primed for a SB run! That's all the Titans need is VY!!! The Jags with that great runnning game(which they havent improved) and defense went 8-8 last year.
     
  14. Cory

    Cory Cheesehead

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    That's true of EVERY SINGLE team in the draft.
     
  15. axelred13

    axelred13 Cheesehead

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    I'm gonna try to make this a clear and concise as possible.

    TT did make a mistake not taking the Cleveland deal.

    Why?

    Here's the way I look at it. Taking a specialty player such as Harrell, a run stopping DT, is kinda like taking a guy for his P and KO return skills. Its such micromanaging. We have other GLARING needs (a RB, a TE, secondary, and a competent backup QB who will some day take the reigns).

    IF we would have traded, we would have had 2 first next year, loose our 1st this year, but pick up an early second this year. So we would have lost about 20 picks.

    Now with that extra 1st next year, we realistically could have started shopping for a younger veteran RB. A position I think we all can agree is one of the most vital to a championship contender.

    Downside would have been loosing those 20 spots in this years draft. So we wouldn't have gotten Harrell. Oh well, we still have 5 guys signed to that postition anyway (2 just signed this offseason).

    But the upside would have been HUGE. Possibly Larry Johnson, possibly Michael Turner. Worst would have been not being able to get someone like those two and we would still have TWO 1st rounders next year.

    So, if things went the Packers way, we could have had those guys for a deal of trading a #1 this year for an early #2 and a 4th. I'm not saying that this WOULD have happened. But it sure would have given us some NICE options.
     
  16. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    axel does make a good point..

    but your assuming Rodgers is a bust which is your opinion, and from the looks of it that is not how the coaches or Ted feels..

    RB is probably the easiest of the positions out of the ones you mentioned to fill for the type of running game the packers run..

    AKA Morency, and Heron had a better ypc carry last year then Green did..
     
  17. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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  18. Arles

    Arles Cheesehead

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    Completely disagree. Harrell is not some 340 pound one-dimensional plugger. He's a 310-pound DT with great strength and good quickness. He can make an impact against the pass and the run. And, if you think a DT that can be that disruptive in both aspects is less important than a non-elite RB or TE - you are crazy.

    Best case, we basically trade a mid-first this season for a top 15 pick next season and a second this year. It's a good deal, but it's not something to lose sleep over. And it definately doesn't help us this season.

    That's a good point, but RBs taken in the top 2 rounds have been very close to a sure thing in the past 3 seasons. Johnson has had a ton of carries and Turner has never done it full time (and got most of his yards in garbage time). Given the money both these guys want, I don't know that they are a much better value than a duo of Jackson and Morency.

    But none are complete DTs like Harrell. Your logic is like passing up on Adrian Peterson or Lynch because we have Morency, Arliss Beach, PJ Pope and Noah Herron.

    It's the best argument for taking the Cleveland deal, but I don't know if it's that much better than what GB has now. LJ will want a ton of money coming off a 400 carry season (not to mention the picks). That's a huge investment on a risk (esp if you look at the history of injuries to backs the season after 400+ carries). Plus, he doesn't exactly have the best attitude.

    Turner is also a risk given he hasn't been a fulltime guy. The league is full of backs with 1-2 nice "backup" seasons who flop fulltime. He would also involve compensation and a nice contract.

    I'm fairly happy with Brandon Jackson and Justin Harrell instead of someone like Turner and a different pick in round 2. LJ would be a potential impact guy and I probably would have done the deal for LJ because he can be a difference maker. Still, I'm not heartbroken GB didn't make the move with Cleveland and KC given the risk with LJ (and investment).
     
  19. MassPackersFan

    MassPackersFan Cheesehead

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    There was no extra 1st in the deal. We lose ours this year, we get theirs next year.
     
  20. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I think they mean our own 1st, plus theirs. Thus giving us 2 1st rounders.

    But had TT done that, i bet the same people that are calling for his head would be pissed that he traded away our 1st rounder this year.
    I don't think the guy can win with some people, no matter what he does.

    I agree with Arles, who said:"Completely disagree. Harrell is not some 340 pound one-dimensional plugger. He's a 310-pound DT with great strength and good quickness. He can make an impact against the pass and the run. And, if you think a DT that can be that disruptive in both aspects is less important than a non-elite RB or TE - you are crazy."

    A guy like Harrell can collapse a pocket with his push up the middle. That will put alot of pressure on a QB. So he won't only affect the running game.
    This will give more opportunity to the D backs and the DE's to make plays.
     
  21. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    The only real complaint on Harrell, which has yet to be proven one way or another, is can he stay healthy and show the same skills of his junior year. But on talent alone, we won't really know until camps start.

    The thing I don't get... is all 4 of the first day picks didn't have more than one productive year in college... whether by injury or just plain productivity.

    Harrell - Injury
    Jackson - Injury & buried on depth chart
    Jones... Great Senior year... but comming into it, a possible starter
    Rouse - productive junior year and disappointing senior year.

    Yet in the second day.. minus Wynn... we draft consistent productive players... Shouldn't it be the other way around?

    As far as the lack of trade of with the Browns, could have took that deal, then traded back into the 1st round like the Cowpokes did. Even if we gave up our 1st next year... which should be lower in the round then the lowly Browns. But then we would have needed a trading partner for that to happen.

    But regardless, if Harrell is what he was his Junior year, we likely got a top 10 player in the end.
     
  22. warhawk

    warhawk Cheesehead

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  23. Oannes

    Oannes Cheesehead

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    Cory... You say I don't understand the game of football because I spoke of Corey Williams 7 sacks and Harrell needing to eclipse it? Read the rest of what I wrote... I said his overall impact on the defense and improvement vs. the run were factors too. Football isn't simply a game of stats, I realize this.

    I also know that we weren't picking up an extra first for this year...we would've lost our first, but we'd be picking up an extra first next year.

    I layed out a plausible scenario had we taken Cleveland's offer. It's likely that Dwayne Jarrett or Sidney Rice would've been our pick at the top of round 2 and we would've been able to take Brandon "No Bo" Jackson at the top of Round 3, or do a trade down and likely get him later in Round 3 and still get James "Round 3 Tragedy" Jones or Aaron "Appendectomy" Rouse.

    I feel for the fans who honestly feel that Jacksonville and the Giants are further away from making a run than we are. I guess that no one is arguing the other teams on that list are worse off than us.

    The original point was that we aren't going for the throat to win in '07, so since we're obviously building for the future, it would've been nice having TWO picks in Round 1 in '08. Yes, I would be willing to bet both of those picks are TOP 15. Cleveland is not going to finish middle of the pack. If Quinn plays they might be picking 1st next year. As I said before, our 8-8 record was puffed up. We beat garbage the last 4 games including an uninspired Bears team. I will be stunned if we equal 8-8. No matter. The point, really, is where the BROWNS pick will be. I think to argue that it's anything less than a sure Top 10 is being completely dishonest, but people are free to hide behind the whole "it's a crapshoot, no one knows where that picks going to be" argument. To those type of folks I ask you to go lay some money in Vegas on the team with the longest odds to win the SuperBowl, because, as you've said, there's just know way of knowing what might happen. A little use of common sense dictates that Browns pick was a gem of a pick to acquire, but some just can't/won't admit it.

    Justin Harrell better be amazing.
     
  24. Lare

    Lare Cheesehead

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    "great strength, good quickness, far reaching contributions, allowing players around him to have monster years, impact against the pass and the run, disruptive in both aspects, collapsing pockets with his push up the middle, putting alot of pressure on a QB, giving more opportunity to the D backs and the DE's to make plays"

    I'm sure there's a lot Justin Harrell may be able to do, but I think I'll sit back and see how he actually does in his first NFL season (after taking almost the entire last season off for injury) before making any determinations on him as a player and his affects on the performance of the team.

    If he's a good as you guys say, it will have been a good first round selection.
     
  25. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Lare that is not how it works.... you must endorse it as a great pick without question... until proven otherwise... then if he doesn't work out... throw him under the bus as a "bust".

    Of course logic says you are right.
     

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