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Why Brett doesn't deserve to have his number retired

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, May 18, 2012.

  1. IluvGB

    IluvGB I <3 Packers!!!!

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  2. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    And miss the fun?


    For a few years almost all threads degenerated into discussion of Favre. Now a thread that starts about Favre and gets into post WWII Asian trade practices; pitfalls of modern imperialism; middle eastern agriculture reforms; religion; applicability of Achaemenid Empire expansion tactics; etc. I was planning on steering towards global warming, figured that would stir some thought and 'heated' responses. Anything but Brett.
     
  3. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Most of the 9/11 terrorists (including its mastermind) were Saudi Arabian. You're inventing facts to support your earlier confusion.

    Well, the United States account for 4% of the world's population and about a quarter of its petroleum use. The current administration has been absolutely hostile toward domestic oil production.

    What's difficult to understand?: 70% of the oil we import is used for transportation. By shifting to natural gas in such applications, we're choosing a cleaner, less expensive fuel that is staggeringly abundant in America (our natural gas reserves dwarf Saudi Arabia's oil reserves). Many cities already operate buses and trash collection vehicles on natural gas. There's no reason this can't be expanded into the trucking industry. Further tapping domestic natural gas would create American jobs and stimulate economic growth.

    Stupidity is the continued dependency on a fuel source whose price is largely dictated by a cartel. This amounts to a one way transfer of wealth from the United States to an unstable part of the world where money is often funneled to terrorists.

    Cyrus maintained his empire because he encouraged local autonomy (i.e., left people alone to govern themselves their own way). The Romans typically did this as well (except in places like present-day Israel, where they ruled with a heavy hand and encountered problems). If you can't recognize what these historical examples tells us about the general human tolerance for encroachment, then you're a moron. Hint: Burke summed it up nicely.

    There's nothing ignorant about recognizing that people value their autonomy. (Isn't that the definition of freedom, after all?). People generally want to live and let live. Those that travel or engage in commerce will do so. Those that choose isolation are better left alone. If you think nation-building in the Middle East is consistent with these values, then I think you're terribly deluded.

    Energy independence is not isolationism, it's the rational prerogative of a nation that recognizes that it is far too dependent on an energy source that is largely controlled by a cartel.
     
  4. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I'm the bully? C'mon even you can't believe that. Re-read both of our posts: YOU were the one insisting everyone agree with you. You were the one on the attack attempting to bully others. I'm fine with others disagreeing with my point of view, all I did was defend my opinion Favre's number shouldn't be retired. I only bristled at your calling all of us who don’t agree with you immature and un-Christian. BTW, I type fast – I didn’t waste much time at all.
     
  5. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I think this maybe has lost its luster???
     
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  6. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    YUH Think???
     
  7. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    (A lot of that is my fault. Sorry.)
     
  8. Jordan

    Jordan Cheesehead

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    Some of these posts make me sick..Favres number will be retired..its a fact. So to speculate if it is or isn't is a waste of time. Regardless of what Brett did away from the Pack he should still be retired as a Packer legend. Michael Jordan cheated on his wife, I wonder if that stops the Bulls, Tiger Woods cheated on his wife more times then most people have kissed girls. I wonder if he will go down as an All-Time great. Don't forget the great times Brett gave us folks.
     
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  9. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Who is speculating whether his number will be retired or not?

    Just checking: After reading the posts that made you sick, can you think of what distinguishes what Favre did from what you say Jordan and Woods did?
     
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  10. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    That is what I dont get...

    People try to compare Brett to other athletes, but those other athletes never "allegedly" did what Brett did

    Regardless of "off the field" stuff..

    Woods, Jordan and the like didnt really do the same as what Brett did...Which is retire, dont retire...And most people believe the "retiring" from the JETS was just to get to Minny..

    Did Jordan, or Woods do that?
     
  11. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Jordan and Woods never choked away championships like Favre did either.

    Golf is somewhat different. But Favre is more a mickelson kinda player. That Sunday meltdown type
     
  12. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    LOL The post is old----- Don't take it personally
     
  13. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    Dan115,

    The subject of retiring Favre's number was old before I joined this board. Since you are concerned about "old" or repeated posts, I was trying to subtly point something out to you. Please don't take this personally but it did seem a bit ironic that you were the one making that point:
     
  14. Dan115

    Dan115 Cheesehead

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    YES, I agree with everything I said. If you look back I have agreed with avast majority of your post. I think this post or maybe I should say Thread (NOT Specifcally your comment) but the ENTIRE POST - Thread is getting old. Sorry if I chose to put the old on your comment . Could have done it on anyone.
     
  15. Bogart

    Bogart Duke Mantee

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    Just excuses cause people still hate him, but at the end of the day we all loved him when he played for us. As for the whole painkiller thing, that's old, old, old news. If that's a reason to hate him might as well dig up something from the 90's. Brett gets blamed for nearly every game we ever lost back in the day and not all of them were his fault; for starters the Super Bowl against Denver, defense let Terrell Davis have a field day. I'm even going to go into rough territory here and say the 2007 NFC Championship. Yeah he did blow it, but did anyone think about a running game? Where was it at? Our running game was crap in that game, and the game was basically all on him, while the Giants had a much better day running it.

    Did I hate it when he played for Minnesota? Yes
    Did I root against him in 2009? Yes again


    But also, did he not win the MVP 3 times on our team? Did he not set records and was very fun to watch? Favre made me a Packer fan when I was young, and now that he's retired, I don't look back and cringe and think how much I hate him when I see all my old Score and Topps cards that I treasured, nor do I look at it and think of who would have been better, but I have to wonder. Had Favre played elsewhere instead of Minnesota his last few years, maybe even an AFC team, I have to wonder if all this would happen with his former fans. At the end of the day, he failed to win a championship for Minnesota and will go down as giving the Saints a trip to the super bowl (bounty business or not, turnovers, turnovers, turnovers, no excuse for that interception at the end), and that is what happened. He got a ring with us, didn't get one for them.

    I also have more respect for him in current times than I do a majority of players, cause during the whole bounty crap surrounding the Saints, while Vikings players are saying how bad they beat him down and gave him the beating of his career, Favre didn't say a thing damning about them, he just said it was football, you're going to get hit. At least he had the class to admit it instead of being a baby about losing to a better team.

    Yes I think he deserves his number retired.
     
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  16. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    I'll always regard him as the toughest sonofabitch to play QB in my lifetime...
     
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  17. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    I don't care to honor Favre for his actions the last SIX years of his career - the three years before retirement and the three years seeking revenge. He had a long pattern of trying to be the de facto GM of the team. He stated he likely would not come back if Sherman were fired. His reason? He didn't want to learn a new playbook (keeping in mind he was making $12,000,000 cap based money, seems to be part of the deal to me). He stated on Greta that Thompson "lied" to him about keeping Wahle and/or Rivera, interviewing (hiring) Mariucci, and the particulars of the Moss negotiations (i.e. the Favre brokered free agent deal). The last time I checked, re-signing players, hiring coaches, and signing free agents is the GM's job. Then, in 2009, during an interview, Favre was asked what the centerpiece of his "mistrust" (i.e. hate) of Ted Thompson was, and Favre said it was the drafting of two QB's and "closing the door on him". That second pick was Matt Flynn, the likely starter in Seattle, while Brohm was the QB of the Las Vegas Locomotives last year. So, to wrap up, that was trying dictate coaches (and their playbooks), re-signing players, negotiating free agents, and signing off on the draft so "doors aren't closed". Again, de facto GM.

    And Thompson didn't knuckle under. Which led Favre to quit. And when that door was closed, he was on the phone to the Vikings the very next week. And no sign of returning, that is until the off season work was over, camp invites went out, fiscal matters were settled (i.e. Favre's cap space allocated), and the front office went on their yearly July vacations, that Favre announced he was coming back. It was purposeful to put the Packers in the most dangerous position fiscally and a leverage point to get his outright release. Why? So he could "stick it" to the Packers, which he spent two years trying to do. Of course, he ultimately failed.

    So, simply, all this background for six years pushed the envelope beyond tolerance for me.

    But that's not the main issue of continued irritation. I can let the water go under the bridge and move on. I was a Packer fan before Favre, and I'm one after he's gone. I don't need Favre cutting ribbons at grocery store openings and waving to people at parades to make the past or the future meaningful. The irritation is with those who live in their pink sky/purple grass world where Favre was the greatest QB ever, single handedly saved the franchise and won the Super Bowl. The primary issue is how they deem to control the narrative with their fantasy land conceptions, to a point where they point their righteous fingers at those who had their tolerance shattered by six years of bulls#!t. They either never cared to know about Favre's struggles against the team, or didn't care. They maintain their pink sky/purple grass fantasy lands at all costs.

    So my first mission is always to try and establish the narrative in the REAL WORLD, where the sky is blue and the grass is green, and Favre is properly regarded as the 15th, 16th, 17th-ish best QB of all time, his downside fully included with his upside (like his very high INT % when taken against peers), and recognizing that he was a PART of some very special times for Packer Nation. If THEN, with real world facts, you say that your tolerance was not broken by all that Favre did, I have no fight. It's a personal value judgement just like any other - like comparing shades of blue. But WILL NOT be taken to task by people who have vaulted Favre onto a level of his own, above even the Montanas and Bradys and Grahams and P Mannings, and give exclusive credit to him for any and all Packer success. If those people have have poured their Packer Fandom all into Favre and are now left without orientation in honoring the TEAM unless Favre is categorically honored regardless of what he did, that's not my problem. I gave proper credit where credit was due to everyone in the organization along the way. Just because Favre burned his legacy doesn't mean I can't enjoy the past, present, and future with him down in Mississippi, the #4 on the back of a punter, and the name Favre not in the Ring of Honor. If he really wants to be honored, then let's see some regret. If he has no regret, I really don't have much honor to squeeze out either. Seems to be a fair tradeoff. It's not up to me, or other whose tolerances were broken when Favre burned his legacy, to try and make something out of the ashes.
     
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  18. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    No one is saying Favre didn't do some great things. It's the things he did AGAINST the team that are the problem

    Why do we watch sports in the first place? To watch individuals or teams struggle against ersatz adversity for our entertainment. We pour value into it like it's our own struggles. What sense does any sport make at its functional level - what it actually is? To drive a car in circles for 5 hours? To hit a ball back and forth for 4 hours? To try and push an inflated bladder over a rectangle of grass for 3 hours? It's the STRUGGLE and competition that distills out. And those who perform well get recognized. Those who perform very well get paid a lot. And those who are great get specially honored. But it is FOR THE TEAM in its struggle. It's NOT about personal glory and struggling AGAINST the team, trying to construct it your way for your own reasons.

    That's the underlying issue with Favre, he spent six full years of his career acting above the team, quitting, throwing pity parties, creating distractions, and finally trying to actively gain revenge. ALL of these things run exactly contrary to the whole purpose of why we watch sports. I don't follow the Packers to watch individuals kick the team around and struggle AGAINST it and run up great personal numbers. I watch for team success against adversity. Will there be some personal problems the blossom now and again? Sure. Some where a parting ensues (e.g. Lofton). Sure. But am I prepared to excuse six full years of disruption from within and revenge from without as if it never happened? Nope. There simply are boundaries and tolerances involved, and they CAN be exceeded. Favre did.

    And it doesn't help that so many pound the narrative that we HAVE TO because HE saved the franchise yada yada yada. That's where all the statistics and addictions and credit/blame arguments come in. The reality is Favre could have truly done what Favre nut huggers THINK he did, or even more, and yet he was not above the team nor licensed to be such a jack*** for six years. The early years of struggle, the addiction, the 63 QB rating in playoff washout games in the 2000's, and being pretty much WRONG about all he wanted to de facto GM (Sherman, linemen, Moss, Mariucci, and "door closing" draft picks) don't help in the least. Disagreeing and splitting in a short term time frame, a legacy might not be burned. But six years of arrogance and revenge will certainly immolate one.
     
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  19. IluvGB

    IluvGB I <3 Packers!!!!

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    wow... excellent posts! Just when I thought I wouldn't , couldn't, shouldn't click on this thread anymore, I'm glad i did!
    :tup:
    (now there are just a few words I need to google! :p )
     
  20. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    Great great posts, and I agree 100%.

    You forgot to mention the call to the lions trying to hurt Aaron and the packers chances by giving away everything he knows about our playbook.
     
  21. gwh11

    gwh11 Cheesehead

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    Here's Bob Harlan's take on the matter:
    “I think regardless of what happened in New York and what happened in Minnesota the last two years with Brett Favre, I think you’ve got to go back to the 1990s when this franchise was resurrected,” said Harlan. “The foundation of that comeback was Ron Wolf, Mike Holmgren, Brett Favre and Reggie White. That was what got us started. I don’t think as Packer fans we should ever forget the contributions Favre made to this franchise. The day is going to come when he’s going to have to walk out onto Lambeau Field, be applauded and cherished and have his number retired because he's going to go into the Hall of Fame in Canton very, very soon."
    He also goes on to say this:
    “I can never forget what he did for us in the ’90s when we were trying so hard to win and, like I say, that was our foundation,” said Harlan. “Those four gentlemen were the ones who got us back to where the fans want us to be and where they expected us to be. I will always have a love for Brett Favre.”
    (Article link is here:http://gnb.scout.com/2/1085782.html)
     
  22. toolkien

    toolkien Cheesehead

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    If one man is to be given singular credit for Packer successes the last 20 years it would be Bob Harlan. I take these attributed quotes to heart. The whole ball got rolling with the structural changes Harlan instituted which enticed Wolf to come back for the GM job after having turned it down in 1987. Without Wolf we have neither Favre, nor Holmgren who molded the QB. So much of the Packer issues for so many years started at the very top. The Packers were just so backward and nobody wanted to play for, coach (Perles), or GM (Wolf's first refusal) the team. Somehow in two years as President, from 1989-1991, he changed enough of the negatives to entice Wolf, and his then 30 year pedigree, to come to Green Bay. And while I can grasp what Harlan is saying, and he is such a great man as a person, that he probably just wants the hatchets buried once and for all.

    And while I agree with what he says, it only goes so far. There WAS replacement value for Favre in Mark Brunell. There were seven coaches from the 90's who went off to other teams with varying success, but three took teams to Super Bowls, including Holmgren who is one of only five men to have taken two franchises to Super Bowls. In more depth, the "Packers West" in Seattle had Holmgren, Hasselbeck (former back up), and 14 Ted Thompson draft picks and made it to a Super Bowl. In the last 20 years, only 11 QB's have had >4,500 attempts, three of whom came through the Packers - Brunell, Hasselbeck, and Favre. And how did Favre fare without all the front office, coaching, and support player personnel? It looks as if a lot of those other mid-90's folk did better without Favre than he did without them.

    And this post-Favre Packer Era is at the tipping point of displacing the mid-90's as the best since Lombardi (albeit a distant second for both cases). AND IT WAS FAVRE WHO WORKED SO DILIGENTLY AGAINST IT EVEN HAPPENING due to his selfishness. Can anyone imagine a Sherman led 2007 team with Rivera done and gone, Wahle at the end of his career, the selfish Randy Moss trying to rehabilitate his career burning a year of the Packers' progress only to bolt? THESE were all the things that weren't done "right" that pissed Favre off so much and led to The Divorce. Once the likely failure emerged, all of Favre's itches would be scratched, both precious linemen gone, Moss bolting for greener pastures, and we'd have Sherman's bubble butt to finally jettison. In other words, we'd be the Minnesota Vikings right now AT BEST.

    So, what Favre DID supply in the 90's, given all the other talent at all levels, does not offset his six years of attacks upon, bad mouthing, and asinine de facto GM'ing that was denied. If he'd have gotten his way, the Packers would have continued on their slide out of relevancy, but he didn't, trashed the team, and tried to get revenge. It's a lose/lose situation he presented the organization, and there simply was too much OTHER 90's talent that has to be marginalized to bolster Favre. In other words, his 90's contribution was too PARTIAL to offset the damage he supplied the last six years ALL BY HIMSELF. Even if a man I respect as much as Harlan says otherwise. It's a tough choice. Harlan is about the only other guy in Packer history that deserves to have his statue out front next to Lambeau and Lombardi. But I have to disagree with him.
     
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  23. jaybadger82

    jaybadger82 Cheesehead

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    Apparently, Favre texted pictures of his junk to Toolkien's wife...

    His posts above have been framed as some sort of response to an imagined contingent of rabid Favre supporters and their rambling, almost sermonizing tone have grown tired: enough with the sanctimonious lecturing and the recitation of Favre's sins. (And enough with the CAPS, dude. SERIOUSLY.) Toolkien's posts are more akin to a campaign than a discussion and it's grown old...

    I guess I don't understand why people can't acknowledge that Favre was a very good QB that was a big part of Green Bay's success for many years while recognizing that the guy is a flawed individual that messed up his legacy over the last few years of his career. Obviously there's some continuing division over whether the Packers should retire his number and that may not change until Favre makes an act of contrition or some sort of overture to the organization. Until then, this topic should be put to bed.
     
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  24. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    ;)
    Dude you are arguing with the lunatic fringe. :D
     
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  25. AmishMafia

    AmishMafia Cheesehead

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    There isn't a Packer fan over the age of 10 who doesn't understand that Favre had a great career with the Packers. There isn't a fan who doesn't understand he had some 'character flaws' in cheating on his wife; texting pictures of his junk; or wearing crocs.

    The problem with him that many of us have is that he no longer supports the Packers. He wants the Packers to lose. He wants other teams to beat the Packers. That is the problem. He wanted the Packers to lose so much he spent 2 years, traveled through New York, just so he could play for the Vikings so that he could stick it to the Pack. Sounds like a guy who hates the Packers. You want to support a guy who wants the Packers to lose? That's your choice man - he's no different right now than Jay Cutler, or any bear or viking.

    To equate that as a simple character issue is shallow at best.
     
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