Why Brett doesn't deserve to have his number retired

[ivo610]

Great article and I agree 100%

http://cheeseheadtv.com/blog/green-...care-if-the-packers-ever-retire-favres-number

 

[longtimefan]

Brian sure can make people see things in a different light

 

[gwh11]

Again, I disagree. This is not Mount Olympus and these are not Greek gods. These are real people with human foibles and flaws. Most fans will forgive and forget.

Can someone tell me where it says the team utilizes character issues to determine who can receive this honor? Of course they don't.
To do so is to make this into something the team never intended, to morph it into something sacred in your own mind. Carriveau seems to do this.

Let's say for the sake of argument people found out Nitschke drank too much and hit his wife Jackie? Should they unretire his number?

Or what if Lambeau cheated on his wife and fathered a child out of wedlock? Should we change the name of the stadium?

Once you say that the retired number guys should be held to a higher moral standard than the Hall Of Fame guys (which is what Carriveau's premise is), you have start ranking "acceptable" moral lapses.

 

[Helmets]

I agree with you Guy. If Brett was only addicted to pain killer, drank too much, or texted his junk to hot chicks while married, I would have no problem with retiring his number. It had really nothing to do with his feelings towards the Packers. However, with his hatred towards the team, wishing ill will even after his final retirement, as well as his "me first" attitude -that he was bigger than the team, is what leads me to my opinions of not honoring such a man that does not have mutal feelings and respect for the Packer organization.

 

[TJV]

I obviously agree with Brian. He made a point I inferred but didn’t make explicitly: I absolutely agree retiring a player’s number is the highest honor that can be bestowed upon a Packer, and of course I agree Favre doesn’t deserve it.

Can someone tell me where it says the team utilizes character issues to determine who can receive this honor? Of course they don't. To do so is to make this into something the team never intended, to morph it into something sacred in your own mind.

Since you are alleging you know, can you produce a document which details what the “team intended” for this honor? And your hypotheticals regarding Nitschke and Lambeau and your mention of character and morals display your misunderstanding of what many of us are saying: Favre doesn’t deserve to have his number retired because he betrayed the team, he became a traitor to the organization. His lack of class and low morals is why he shouldn’t be worshiped as some still do, but that’s not why is number shouldn’t be retired.

As I’ve said before, I expect his number will be retired. Partly for financial reasons since the Packers will have to enter into a contract with Favre to benefit from future merchandise sales and partly to mollify (IMO) misguided fans.

 

[GreenBayGal]

I think BF should offer the olive branch and that it would be well received. At this point, he is a spoiled, self-centered,
self-righteous, egotistical, back stabbing, picture takin', diva in the eyes of many Packers fans. A little humility on his part might help heal the wounds.

 

[KilrB]

I dont like him.

But he should have his number retired.

I think it should happen when he is inducted into the HOF, not before.

What is that? 6 Years for eligibility?

 

[Kitten]

I have some mixed feelings on this. I think both sides in this thread (including Brian's article) have made compelling points. The thing is I knew this proverbial can of worms was going to have to be opened at some point. It is inevitable. Part of me thinks they should retire his number for the many years he was a Packer but it would be all too simple if that was all there was to it. The fact it, there is not. There is still a lot of negativity from both sides surrounding this issue and I don't think it is going to go away any time soon. Funny thing is die hard BF fans probably don't want to see his number retired as a Packer because they no longer like the Packers. This is not an issue that is black and white. Both sides have made mistakes, but they must meet in the middle if they can and do what is best for all and realize that somebody is going to be unhappy with their choice no matter what they do.

 

[Dan115]

I don't think this needs to be done anytime soon.

 

[gwh11]

I obviously agree with Brian. He made a point I inferred but didn’t make explicitly: I absolutely agree retiring a player’s number is the highest honor that can be bestowed upon a Packer, and of course I agree Favre doesn’t deserve it.Since you are alleging you know, can you produce a document which details what the “team intended” for this honor? And your hypotheticals regarding Nitschke and Lambeau and your mention of character and morals display your misunderstanding of what many of us are saying: Favre doesn’t deserve to have his number retired because he betrayed the team, he became a traitor to the organization. His lack of class and low morals is why he shouldn’t be worshiped as some still do, but that’s not why is number shouldn’t be retired.

As I’ve said before, I expect his number will be retired. Partly for financial reasons since the Packers will have to enter into a contract with Favre to benefit from future merchandise sales and partly to mollify (IMO) misguided fans.

There is no document detailing what the team intended for this, but by virtue of the fact that Favre will be honored in this manner, does this not imply that the Packers are not interested in wielding a moral yardstick? It seems to me that the team does this for the select few who have contributed in an extraordinary way on the field, not off.

I am not misunderstanding what some of you are saying. In Carriveau's blog post he mentions some of Favre's moral lapses as part of the reason he feels #4 shouldn't be retired. This thread was started with a link to Carriveau's post, and I expressed contrary views to some of what he wrote concerning Favre's transgressions. How am I misunderstanding that? Is this not a thread about Carriveau's blog post?

I realize that it is the betrayal/traitor aspects of Favre's actions that some feel should disqualify retiring #4. Classy on Favre's part? No, not at all. There clearly were elements of childish revenge involved. But is this sort of thing uncommon in the NFL? No, not at all. I know some fans were mortified and had to pick their jaws up off the floor when they heard about Favre chatting with Millen, etc., but does it make Favre a uniquely Benedict Arnold-type of figure?

I would ask that fans who feel shocked that Favre would do such a thing read this piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sports/football/26nfl.html
Again, I'm not applauding him for doing that. I will say that divulging info on a former team is pretty common, and happens in a variety of circumstances. I'm willing to wager Packers' brass knows this, as it seems to be part of the culture of the NFL. Even though Favre went out of his way to attempt to exact revenge, I can envision the Packers management chuckling, shrugging it off and moving on, even if some fans will not.

 

[longtimefan]

There is no document detailing what the team intended for this, but by virtue of the fact that Favre will be honored in this manner, does this not imply that the Packers are not interested in wielding a moral yardstick? It seems to me that the team does this for the select few who have contributed in an extraordinary way on the field, not off.

I am not misunderstanding what some of you are saying. In Carriveau's blog post he mentions some of Favre's moral lapses as part of the reason he feels #4 shouldn't be retired. This thread was started with a link to Carriveau's post, and I expressed contrary views to some of what he wrote concerning Favre's transgressions. How am I misunderstanding that? Is this not a thread about Carriveau's blog post?

I realize that it is the betrayal/traitor aspects of Favre's actions that some feel should disqualify retiring #4. Classy on Favre's part? No, not at all. There clearly were elements of childish revenge involved. But is this sort of thing uncommon in the NFL? No, not at all. I know some fans were mortified and had to pick their jaws up off the floor when they heard about Favre chatting with Millen, etc., but does it make Favre a uniquely Benedict Arnold-type of figure?

I would ask that fans who feel shocked that Favre would do such a thing read this piece:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sports/football/26nfl.html
Again, I'm not applauding him for doing that. I will say that divulging info on a former team is pretty common, and happens in a variety of circumstances. I'm willing to wager Packers' brass knows this, as it seems to be part of the culture of the NFL. Even though Favre went out of his way to attempt to exact revenge, I can envision the Packers management chuckling, shrugging it off and moving on, even if some fans will not.

We all know players and coaches talk to eachother to get info..

what people FAIL to understand through out all this is this.

He was a Packer, said he would be a Packer for life.

#1- Tells Detroit how to game plan on us (even if this isn't a huge deal to some, it is still relevant)
#2- Tells Peppers to BEAT THE PACKERS so they dont make the playoff game

some people believe that the Packers shouldnt honor him because of those two issues..

 

[Dan115]

The bottom --- The Packers will retire his number someday. Could be a number of years.

 

[gwh11]

We all know players and coaches talk to eachother to get info..

what people FAIL to understand through out all this is this.

He was a Packer, said he would be a Packer for life.

#1- Tells Detroit how to game plan on us (even if this isn't a huge deal to some, it is still relevant)
#2- Tells Peppers to BEAT THE PACKERS so they dont make the playoff game

some people believe that the Packers shouldnt honor him because of those two issues..

I hear you on those points. However, Reggie White made similar "Packer for life" comments when he retired the first time. The "I'll be a (insert the name of your favorite team here) for life" line is a sports cliche that doesn't ring true on every occasion.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Lambeau had some choice things to say about the Packers to division rivals after he took over as coach of the Cardinals.
Perhaps I have a "misguided" minority opinion on the board regarding this, but two vengeful conversations outweighs the rest of his Packers career concerning this? Really?

 

[longtimefan]

I hear you on those points. However, Reggie White made similar "Packer for life" comments when he retired the first time. The "I'll be a (insert the name of your favorite team here) for life" line is a sports cliche that doesn't ring true on every occasion.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Lambeau had some choice things to say about the Packers to division rivals after he took over as coach of the Cardinals.
Perhaps I have a "misguided" minority opinion on the board regarding this, but two vengeful conversations outweighs the rest of his Packers career concerning this? Really?

You know there are more than two vengeful convos he had..Hell, he had 3 hours with Greta Von

Reggie WAS RETIRED for a year before he went and played again, correct? so that is a different situation all together...In fact I absolutely hate the Reggie comparisons, or the Lombardi ones..

Those situations were way way way way different and everyone knows this..

 

[gwh11]

You know there are more than two vengeful convos he had..Hell, he had 3 hours with Greta Von

Reggie WAS RETIRED for a year before he went and played again, correct? so that is a different situation all together...In fact I absolutely hate the Reggie comparisons, or the Lombardi ones..

Those situations were way way way way different and everyone knows this..

You stated above that "some people believe that the Packers shouldnt honor him because of those two issues", naming two conversations. You didn't mention the Van Susteren interview, correct? I was directly addressing the exact points you made.
I didn't state that Reggie didn't retire for a year. I stated that he said the same "Packer for life" thing you mentioned. My point is that fans shouldn't feel betrayed if egos get the best of these athletes sometimes and they end up playing against their old team, retirement farewells to the contrary.
Let me ask you this: Does this decision on the part of the Packers make you question the wisdom and judgement of the organization? Do you think the Packers are selling out by doing this? Are they cheapening their history in some fashion?

 

[longtimefan]

Let me ask you this: Does this decision on the part of the Packers make you question the wisdom and judgement of the organization? Do you think the Packers are selling out by doing this? Are they cheapening their history in some fashion?

I can see both sides of the issue and why they might not want to do it for a long time..Or I can see why they want to do it right away.
Just like when they traded him..I support their choice unless I really think it is stupid

 

[Dan115]

The Packers may want to do it right away but I bet Favre will hold it up.

 

[Vltrophy]

I dont like him.

But he should have his number retired.

I think it should happen when he is inducted into the HOF, not before.

What is that? 6 Years for eligibility?

5 yrs before you can be inducted into the HOF

 

[Vltrophy]

Bretts # should be retired. He did alot of positive stuff for the org. Granted he left on a bad note & has done/said things that were improper but no one is perfect. He's not the first Packer to have done something wrong nor will he be the last. It's hard to forgive & forget & since we are one of the top organizations in the league we should lead by example. None of us is perfect & we want forgiveness we do wrong. Making money off his name might be the Packers goal(don't know just speculating)but these days as Robert Harlen had foreseen we as an organization don't have someone like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder w/deep pockets we need to do extra to compete w/other teams. If retiring Brett's #4 helps us to make more $$$$ & stay competitve I say go for it.

 

[PFanCan]

Retire his number or not. I don't care. Glad it isn't my problem.

 

[gwh11]

Bretts # should be retired. He did alot of positive stuff for the org. Granted he left on a bad note & has done/said things that were improper but no one is perfect. He's not the first Packer to have done something wrong nor will he be the last. It's hard to forgive & forget & since we are one of the top organizations in the league we should lead by example. None of us is perfect & we want forgiveness we do wrong. Making money off his name might be the Packers goal(don't know just speculating)but these days as Robert Harlen had foreseen we as an organization don't have someone like Jerry Jones or Dan Snyder w/deep pockets we need to do extra to compete w/other teams. If retiring Brett's #4 helps us to make more $$$$ & stay competitve I say go for it.

I alluded to this in a previous post, but you have hit the nail on the head.
This is why Carriveau's thesis is simplistic, antiquated and incongruent to today's NFL.
Eventually retiring #4 makes perfect financial sense for the organization. You do not turn away that opportunity and deny that enhanced revenue stream in the NFL.
The NFL is very good at marketing its past, and no one does it better than Green Bay. These days, we need every chance we can get to take advantage and "sell" the history of the team. No other franchise is better positioned to do so, but that constantly needs to be maintained.
Yes, we are reminded of the boneheaded INTs and the string of embarrassing episodes that have become his post-Packers career. But frankly, in the face of the way he galvanized thousands (maybe millions?) of fans not too long ago, that's the equivilent of pounding sand. Barring futher criminal activity from the man, the legacy of Favre will be a huge selling point for the Packers. (I would warn those who are sick of hearing about the guy that you might want to cut off your internet connections now and make plans to move to the South Pole, because it's only going to get worse once the number is retired.)
I submit that if you were in on the decision, and suggested that #4 not be retired because he was a traitor and/or sleazeball, the Board of Directors would follow your comments with muffled chuckles, you would be asked what you are smoking, and you would politely be shown the door.

 

[ivo610]

I hear you on those points. However, Reggie White made similar "Packer for life" comments when he retired the first time. The "I'll be a (insert the name of your favorite team here) for life" line is a sports cliche that doesn't ring true on every occasion.
I'm also willing to bet Mr. Lambeau had some choice things to say about the Packers to division rivals after he took over as coach of the Cardinals.
Perhaps I have a "misguided" minority opinion on the board regarding this, but two vengeful conversations outweighs the rest of his Packers career concerning this? Really?

Sadly, in anyones life, one mistake can define you.

 

[VersusTheMoose]

No one will or should wear the #4 again for the Packers. Whether or not their is a formal event makes very little difference.

Is he a good person? Maybe not. Was he a great Packer?

Retire the number and pretend you didn't learn anything else about the man after he retired a Packer.

 

[ivo610]

I alluded to this in a previous post, but you have hit the nail on the head.
This is why Carriveau's thesis is simplistic, antiquated and incongruent to today's NFL.
Eventually retiring #4 makes perfect financial sense for the organization. You do not turn away that opportunity and deny that enhanced revenue stream in the NFL.
The NFL is very good at marketing its past, and no one does it better than Green Bay. These days, we need every chance we can get to take advantage and "sell" the history of the team. No other franchise is better positioned to do so, but that constantly needs to be maintained.
Yes, we are reminded of the boneheaded INTs and the string of embarrassing episodes that have become his post-Packers career. But frankly, in the face of the way he galvanized thousands (maybe millions?) of fans not too long ago, that's the equivilent of pounding sand. Barring futher criminal activity from the man, the legacy of Favre will be a huge selling point for the Packers. (I would warn those who are sick of hearing about the guy that you might want to cut off your internet connections now and make plans to move to the South Pole, because it's only going to get worse once the number is retired.)
I submit that if you were in on the decision, and suggested that #4 not be retired because he was a traitor and/or sleazeball, the Board of Directors would follow your comments with muffled chuckles, you would be asked what you are smoking, and you would politely be shown the door.

The packers are so good at selling history they have a fake heisman and a museum filled with fake items that people pay money to see.

 

[ivo610]

Can someone explain the point of not retiring a number but taking it out of use?