Where would we be if ....

[dhpackr]

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.
If the Packers had drafted Olsen at TE in this years draft, had our O -Line consist of Clifton, Wahle, Wells, Spitz, Taucher, Olsen at TE, Green at RB, Driver , Walker, Chad Jackson at WRer, Favre at QB. We would be in the playoffs every year and have a shot at a Super Bowl every year.

Keeping those huge contracts, does that mean we wouldn't have signed Woodson etc.? Your starting cornerback for your NFC Champion Green Bay packers, Ahmad Carroll! Yeah... right...

I'd rather have J-Walk than Woodson

 

[dhpackr]

for the last time... Colledge is as good as wahle is... move on people..

WRONG not even close, not even in the same class. No WAY IS COLLEDGE THE SAME CALIBER PLAYER AS WAHLE. do you think Collledge will ever catch a TD pass like Wahle did? can colledge pull like Wahle did? will colledge ever be an all pro like Wahle?

Having a good cornerback tandem in Woodson, Harris. and a good D-line we have now... is more valuable to us than Green Wahle and Walker put together.

again, i beg to differ, J-Walk & DD > woodson & harris
J-Walk, DD, Green Clifton, Wahle, Wells, Spitz, Taucher, Olsen, Favre = Playoffs

 

[dhpackr]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

 

[kmac]

for the last time... Colledge is as good as wahle is... move on people..

WRONG not even close, not even in the same class. No WAY IS COLLEDGE THE SAME CALIBER PLAYER AS WAHLE. do you think Collledge will ever catch a TD pass like Wahle did? can colledge pull like Wahle did? will colledge ever be an all pro like Wahle?

I never thought it was possible to be right......but for all the wrong reasons. Pulling is the only thing Colledge does as well as Wahle, he was drafted for his athletic ability. Also, catching a TD pass isn't worth mentioning. If it were, by your logic, Jumbo Elliot is better than Steve Hutchinson. Also, saying Colledge will never be an All-Pro is an absurd statement. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Wahle, but he was All-Rookie 1st team last year, so to say he'll never be an All-Pro is ridiculous.

Colledge is not in Wahle's class, but those are NOT 3 reasons why, I don't see how you could have possibly come up with worse arguments for Colledge being worse than Wahle.

 

[cheesey]

Colledge is young, and may turn out to be great. It's too early to write him off or say he CAN'T be as good as Wahle.
JMO

 

[longtimefan]

for the last time... Colledge is as good as wahle is... move on people..

WRONG not even close, not even in the same class. No WAY IS COLLEDGE THE SAME CALIBER PLAYER AS WAHLE. do you think Collledge will ever catch a TD pass like Wahle did? can colledge pull like Wahle did? will colledge ever be an all pro like Wahle?

I never thought it was possible to be right......but for all the wrong reasons. Pulling is the only thing Colledge does as well as Wahle, he was drafted for his athletic ability. Also, catching a TD pass isn't worth mentioning. If it were, by your logic, Jumbo Elliot is better than Steve Hutchinson. Also, saying Colledge will never be an All-Pro is an absurd statement. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Wahle, but he was All-Rookie 1st team last year, so to say he'll never be an All-Pro is ridiculous.

Colledge is not in Wahle's class, but those are NOT 3 reasons why, I don't see how you could have possibly come up with worse arguments for Colledge being worse than Wahle.

Lets not forget, Wahle wass in VERY real danger of being cut when he was here in the beginning..It was only until they moved him to guard that they realized he would work there..

 

[warhawk]

packerfan the only problem is we dont have a Good O and a good D we have quite a bad D.

You are kidding right?

Who, for example, in our division is going to move the ball and score against this defense? I don't see an offensive line in our division that can hold off our pass rush and I doubt anybody is going to run over us.

We have quite a bad "D"? What did that make our '04 and '05 "D" if this one is bad? I don't think there is a word for it.

We were 25th in scoring defense last year. Im not sure that we have done that much to significantly improve that. And Kurt Schottenheimer is still on the defensive staff. This is not a good thing.

We were 25th in scoring "D" because we stunk the first several games giving up way to many easy scores. This defense did not play to it's potential early.

We are better and deeper across the line now that we know what Jenkins can do at DE. We can now put Harrell in the DT spot and Jenkins at DE and I expect Poppinga and Hawk to come out playing much better than when they got out there for the first time last year.

With Underwood more than likely taking over at Safety I think there is definately "enough" improvement to be optimistic. We were dead last in several catagories and picked it up to finish well up in many areas by the end of the season. I doubt a "D" in the league improved over the year more than ours.

 

[MassPackersFan]

The difference between our defense at the start of our season and the end of the season was night and day. The scheme had to set, the players had to get comfortable with it, and many had to get used to playing together.
Here is a breakdown of key defensive stats, first half of the season vs. second half:

Yards per game: 342.5 vs. 299.3 (-43.2)
Passing Yards per game: 244.5 vs. 169.1 (-75.4)
Rushing Yards per game: 98.0 vs. 130.1 (+32.1)
First Downs per game: 20.0 vs. 16.4 (-3.6)
Points per game: 23.3 vs. 19.1 (-4.2)
Turnovers per game: 1.4 vs. 2.8 (+1.4)

Looking at this, it's actually pretty clear why we drafted a DT in the 1st, eh?

 

[longtimefan]

The difference between our defense at the start of our season and the end of the season was night and day. The scheme had to set, the players had to get comfortable with it, and many had to get used to playing together.
Here is a breakdown of key defensive stats, first half of the season vs. second half:

Yards per game: 342.5 vs. 299.3 (-43.2)
Passing Yards per game: 244.5 vs. 169.1 (-75.4)
Rushing Yards per game: 98.0 vs. 130.1 (+32.1)
First Downs per game: 20.0 vs. 16.4 (-3.6)
Points per game: 23.3 vs. 19.1 (-4.2)
Turnovers per game: 1.4 vs. 2.8 (+1.4)

Looking at this, it's actually pretty clear why we drafted a DT in the 1st, eh?

Thanks for doing that!!!

I was trying to find something where it was broken down by games..

 

[MassPackersFan]

Here is my spreadsheet I made by game to put that together. The order is the same as I presented it, YPG, PYPG, RYPG, FD, PPG, TO:

361 252 109 18 19 1
380 332 48 20 34 3
424 319 105 23 24 1
398 267 131 23 31 2
327 209 118 19 23 0
448 381 67 26 24 3
218 132 86 20 14 1
184 64 120 11 17 0

312 222 90 14 17 2
357 235 122 22 35 1
382 147 235 29 34 4
441 263 178 27 38 2
340 194 146 13 19 3
142 84 58 10 9 3
104 27 77 3 0 1
316 181 135 13 7 6

 

[longtimefan]

one thing struck me as odd in your stats...look at the rushing and passing per games...

with past history that stat sort of showed that teams were running more cuz they were in the lead and and wanted to grind it out...But we all know that isnt really the case for last year..

I am curious to know the comparison of rushes per game in 1st 8 games to the last 8 games...

going to look into it now, but if you have that go ahead an dpost it

 

[MonBack]

Where I think the problem lies is in everyone viewing this as an all or nothing proposition. Either TT had to re-sign them all and suffer cap hell for years, or he had to cut them all, and start completely anew. I think that is a faulty argument and that the answer lies somewhere between the two. You can rebuild a team, and keep and sign FA talent. He could have kept Wahle, Green, and maybe Sharper by having them restructure their contracts (except Green), and he should have done more to reach out to Walker and try to keep him in Green Bay and happy somehow, imo. You just don't let a player with that kind of talent walk away from the team. Especially when you've developed them.

This is the same kind of faulty logic used by those who say, "Favre's skills are declining, and he is responsible for the Pack's losing record in '05", yet turn around and say that TT is not responsible for the same record because he had to work with Sherman's poor draft picks, the teams massive injuries that year, and Sherman's poor coaching job. How can any reasonable poster here possibly blame Favre or critique his play on a team that many here accused of being poorly put together (by Sherman), having multiple injuries, and no defense to speak of at all, and continue to do so as Favre has had to suffer through a rebuilding process with multiple rookies starting, a new head coach, and a minimal running game because the rookies have only learned half of the play-book? You can not accurately or properly judge a player such as Favre without looking at all of the mitigating factors.

When you look at it, it's not very logical because football is a team sport, and a team is not developed in a vacuum. I suppose it's easier to find a scapegoat to blame, especially by fans who have a blind spot for their particular team--the GB Packers, but it's really not a very honest assessment or based in reality at all. I guess it's easier to blame one person than admit that your team is not very good. IMO, I think TT went overboard in letting certain players go, and is banking too heavily on all of his picks working out. That's not a very good strategy in my book because the percentages are against it.

I guess we'll see come the fall, but I think alot of people here will be re-canting their opinions regarding TT as the season progresses.

 

[MassPackersFan]

It was pretty commonly reported back then that we couldn't keep all of those players you named. I'm not a cap guru so I can't verify that, but even reworking the contracts sounded far fetched back then. Players like Wahle could've just refused to rework the contract and fetch more money (as they did) in the FA market.
The Green decision was not a financial one. It was simply time to let him go and get fresh legs.

 

[longtimefan]

one thing struck me as odd in your stats...look at the rushing and passing per games...

with past history that stat sort of showed that teams were running more cuz they were in the lead and and wanted to grind it out...But we all know that isnt really the case for last year..

I am curious to know the comparison of rushes per game in 1st 8 games to the last 8 games...

going to look into it now, but if you have that go ahead and post it

208 rushes 1st 8 games to 233 rushes for last 8 games

 

[MonBack]

It was pretty commonly reported back then that we couldn't keep all of those players you named. I'm not a cap guru so I can't verify that, but even reworking the contracts sounded far fetched back then. Players like Wahle could've just refused to rework the contract and fetch more money (as they did) in the FA market.
The Green decision was not a financial one. It was simply time to let him go and get fresh legs.

That's another myth.

Andrew Brandt stated that Wahle could have been kept and the salary cap would have been fine. Someone like Sharper could have been asked to restructure and others could have been asked to restructure as well.

In today's NFL you reload, you do not completely rebuild.

 

[MassPackersFan]

It's not a "myth". It would've been difficult. Why would Wahle have wanted to stay if he could've made more money in FA? Did you want to break the bank on him? And again, you're talking about tweaking a maxed out cap so that you can RETAIN players. That's not a good cap situation.

 

[warhawk]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

 

[longtimefan]

where between the two. You can rebuild a team, and keep and sign FA talent. He could have kept Wahle, Green, and maybe Sharper by having them restructure their contracts (except Green), and he should have done more to reach out to Walker and try to keep him in Green Bay and happy somehow, imo. You just don't let a player with that kind of talent walk away from the team. Especially when you've developed them.

I think it could be safe to assume Ted and Andrew talked about doing that, but a very real possibility is that the cap would have had same sort of mess as they ran into anyways..

Sharper wasnt willing to restructure, and in your honest opinion do you truly think he was worth the amount he was suppose to get? I dont..

I didnt want Walker here for the simple fact after ONE, 1, UNO, good season he decided he was the star of the team..He Packer people he wanted to be the face of the team..This was reported by Bill Michaels on WTMJ radfio 620 a few years ago...

Wahle is the only one I would have loved to be here still..I wouldnt have had an issues of giving him what he was due...

 

[dhpackr]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

 

[pack_in_black]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

Really? Really. Really!?! Jackson has not participated in a single play at the NFL level, and you've already written him off as a bust? When you write IMHO, does that stand for In My Hater Opinion? Jeez, let the kid get a couple reps before you give up on him.

And as far a offering Green more than a 1 year deal- if TT had given him a say, 3 or 4 year deal, and he goes down in 06, then you'd be calling him a moron for giving an injury-prone, over the hill RB a longterm deal. Sounds to me like you've damned the GM regardless of what he does....

 

[cheesey]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

Really? Really. Really!?! Jackson has not participated in a single play at the NFL level, and you've already written him off as a bust? When you write IMHO, does that stand for In My Hater Opinion? Jeez, let the kid get a couple reps before you give up on him.

And as far a offering Green more than a 1 year deal- if TT had given him a say, 3 or 4 year deal, and he goes down in 06, then you'd be calling him a moron for giving an injury-prone, over the hill RB a longterm deal. Sounds to me like you've damned the GM regardless of what he does....

I was thinking the same thing. Jackson hasn't even carried the ball for us yet. Morency has a year under his belt now, and i really think he will do well. He showed flashes last year. Green is one of my favorite players, but he's over the hill and not worth the money he got.
Truth is, how can ANY player be good if you don't give him a chance? Seattle gave up on Green, and after a short time here he did well. I think Morency can shine too if given the chance. Only if he gets the reps can he show what he can do.

 

[dhpackr]

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

Really? Really. Really!?! Jackson has not participated in a single play at the NFL level, and you've already written him off as a bust? When you write IMHO, does that stand for In My Hater Opinion? Jeez, let the kid get a couple reps before you give up on him.

And as far a offering Green more than a 1 year deal- if TT had given him a say, 3 or 4 year deal, and he goes down in 06, then you'd be calling him a moron for giving an injury-prone, over the hill RB a longterm deal. Sounds to me like you've damned the GM regardless of what he does....

I hate the fact that TT has surrounded a HOF QB with GJ, Jackson, and Jones
instead of Green, Walker, Wahle.
IMHO Green has a monster season, while Jackson struggles to learn the offense and has "rookie mistakes". jackson was a backup player at Nebraska, what makes you think if he didn't start at the college level, why all of a sudden would he "shine" in the NFL? If anthing, I think the best pick maybe the RB TT picked in the 7th round.

 

[kmac]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

I like that I burn the hell out of you and you just move on to a new criticism.

 

[dhpackr]

WRONG not even close, not even in the same class. No WAY IS COLLEDGE THE SAME CALIBER PLAYER AS WAHLE. do you think Collledge will ever catch a TD pass like Wahle did? can colledge pull like Wahle did? will colledge ever be an all pro like Wahle?

I never thought it was possible to be right......but for all the wrong reasons. Pulling is the only thing Colledge does as well as Wahle,

based on what?

Also, catching a TD pass isn't worth mentioning. If it were, by your logic, Jumbo Elliot is better than Steve Hutchinson. Also, saying Colledge will never be an All-Pro is an absurd statement. I don't think he'll ever be as good as Wahle, but he was All-Rookie 1st team last year, so to say he'll never be an All-Pro is ridiculous.

I'm just trying to show how athletic Wahle was compared to Colledge. I think its absurd to say Colledge is Wahles replacement, esp when Colledge played Tackle in college

Colledge is not in Wahle's class, but those are NOT 3 reasons why, I don't see how you could have possibly come up with worse arguments for Colledge being worse than Wahle.

I'm saying Colledge is not as athletic, strong, and doesn't have the same size as Wahle nor can Colledge pull on running plays like Wahle did. in fact I never once saw Colledge running paralell to the line of scrimmage, so I don't know where you come up with Colledge can pull as well as Wahle. I know Colledge was benched last season and probably should be playing tackle not gaurd.

and what were your three reasons again

 

[dhpackr]

[dhpacker wrote:

I would've kept Wahle, Walker, and Green. I think we would still have Barnett, Hawk, and Popinga at LB.

How could we have Hawk if we were going to be a playoff team? He's a top five pick, top ten at least, and playoff teams don't pick that high.

We figure a way to keep Wahle, Walker, and Green, your looking at how much money again? Who goes from what is here now because we certainly can't pay EVERYBODY.

So Walker cancels Woodson, Wahle and Green jeopordize resigning Kampman or Jenkins or possibly dealing with Harris and Barnett.

Looks to me like we lose key players and get older from what I see.

I'd take green over jenkins, esp. with the 1st 2007 draft pick being a DT

That would be smart. Let go of a guy coming into his prime for a guy with one or two years left in his tank. Geesh. Jenkins adds great value at DE where we finally have a guy that doesn't get run all over. Were you not tired of watching KGB getting steamrolled?

EVERYBODY would have wanted a shot at Jenkins if we don't redo his deal. Those guys are much harder to come by than RB's. Especially old ones.

IMHO Brandon Jackson = bust
Morency is at best a #2 back
Jenkins is a good pass rushing DT, not a great pass rushing DE. If your going to draft a DT with your first pick, at least sign your vetran RB. maybe TT should have considered offering green more than a 1 year deal after his injury.

I like that I burn the hell out of you and you just move on to a new criticism.

WTF are you babaling about, if you mean your post I responded