When will Packer fans learn?

[ExpatPacker]

Good points ThxJackVainisi. The problems with this year's defense are several. Lack of personnel is one; poor fundamentals and poor execution are the others.

My take is this: Regarding our own FA's, signing Finley and Wells (I believe we already signed Bush) would be beneficial as long as they don't cost that much. I think we should be able to sign Finley to a reasonable multi-year contract. Wells is 31 years old and signing him to a 2-3 year contract is all I would recommend. If his price-tag gets too high because he's a pro-bowl center, it would hurt for us to lose him. It means we would probably have to reserve a high draft pick to get us a center. Konz would be great but he will probably be gone by pick #28 and we need that pick to upgrade our defense anyway.

I don't see any other FAs that really need to be kept. I still am hoping and praying we can get something decent on a sign-and-trade for Flynn. Even a high second-round pick would be very welcome. If we can get 3 picks in the 1st two rounds I don't think we need to resort to a high-profile FA but can instead search around from the diamond in the rough.

Everyone's focusing on DLs and OLBs, but the best of those will probably be gone by the time #28 comes around. I'm still thinking that Mark Barron would be a great addition to this defense at safety, but apparently his stock has been rising. He was projected as a late 1st rounder, but now he's trending more toward the middle. He is everything we didnt' have last year: plays very physical at 6'2" 215, great tackler, can defend the tall WRs, good instincts and has experience with a complex defensive scheme and he has big play potential.

And if Nick Collins isn't coming back I'd almost say that he's a must, and if he is, imagine those two at safety....

We can always get a OLB/DL in the second round. Guys like Crick, Curry and Branch are projected as 2nd rounders.

 

[Croak]

Why are we still reading about Jenkins? That was a year ago. It's done. He ain't coming back. TT had reasons for letting him go and I'm sure TT's reasons didn't change in one year's time. It's time to move on and come up with better suggestions.

 

[Wood Chipper]

2011-2012 season.... We need to sign big name defensive players!!!
2010-2011 season.... We need to sign a big name running back now!!!!

 

[13 Times Champs]

To address a previous post no one compared Bishops acumen to that of a GM. It was a quote from what he saw as the result of not signing Jenkins.

 

[TJV]

To address a previous post no one compared Bishops acumen to that of a GM. It was a quote from what he saw as the result of not signing Jenkins.

But ultimately, that’s what you’re doing, right: Supporting your argument that Thompson was wrong not to re-sign Jenkins? And there’s nothing wrong with that. As an ardent supporter of Thompson (not that anyone participating in this thread isn’t) I agree it was a mistake not to re-sign Jenkins, particularly to the deal the Eagles did with him. Where I disagree with some, and perhaps Bishop, is how much difference Jenkins would have made this season and we can argue about it, but no one can prove that point.

I’m not a mind reader but it looks to me like Thompson determined that while Jenkins was and is talented, he was injury-prone and on the wrong side of 30 and therefore not worth the risk of re-signing. A player may have to have Charles Woodson-type talent in order to get the benefit of the doubt injury-wise beyond 30. Or be a season or two “rental” like Clifton may turn out to be. The issue to me is how often Thompson is correct regarding these types of decisions, so it doesn’t make sense to dwell for too long on each and every one. For example, anyone miss Colledge this season? IMO the LG spot was upgraded in his absence. That was a win for Thompson IMO. Think of all the backups that contributed last year: Those were wins for Thompson, the front office, and the coaching staff. If the 2010 “luck” would have continued, Mike Neal would have taken Jenkins’ place without a hitch. What surprised me about Jenkins is the Eagles ended up just “renting” him for one year: I believe they can get out of that contract without too much fiscal damage by not paying him a bonus that’s due in March. I think most, including Thompson, expected Jenkins to get a contract whose signing bonus would guarantee him two or three years of salaries (because of the cap hit for waiving him). If Thompson considered matching that contract, if he had the chance, he apparently stuck with his initial opinion. Another factor to consider from Jenkins’ point of view: playing in a 4-3 is better for him than playing a 3-4, or 2-4-5 for the same money.

I’m going to make a bold prediction here so I hope you are all sitting down. Ted Thompson will continue to make mistakes for as long as he’s GM. Wait 'til ya see at least one of his picks in the upcoming draft – what will he have been thinking??!!

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I believe he was technically a FA but the player is irrelevant, I'm just wondering a player in that situation, almost opposite of Cullen Jenkins, where do you put him at? A good signing or a bad signing? Not very clear cut for me but wondering your thoughts

I don't think guys like Green and Walden can be categorized as "good" or "bad". They were necessary because 53 players have to be active on game day. They were players who were signed during the season due to injuries. They were excellent signings for two guys who were out of work and working out at the local gym.

I think the problem with this thread is that nobody sees the difference between a significant free agent signing and signing free agents. For example, signing Mario Williams is a signficant free agent signing. He'd require a large amount of cash and be high profile. If the Packers sign a veteran defensive end who can make plays at a reasonable salary, that's a free agent signing. The Packers can/should add players through free agency. What people have to realize is that these players do not need to be expensive.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Jack

You see the problem is this. You have drawn a parallel independent of what was quoted by Bishop. For sure I think it was a mistake to have not signed Jenkins but you and others have made a direct association from the statement made by Bishop to his acumen as a GM. Was there anywhere a reference to Thompson in it? Did anyone including Bishop say he was a better GM? Bishop only stated what he saw as a player and I happen to agree with his statement. To refresh your memory here is his statement which I posted:

“(Jenkins’) ability to get after the passer is a statistic that’s underrated,” linebacker Desmond Bishop said. “(Sacks are) one of the biggest correlations between winning and losing, close to turnovers. (His absence) kind of took away from Clay’s production and the production of the defense as a whole.”


Some here are tired of bringing Jenkins up but it is a valid point of the discussion regarding this past season. I think The Packers would have been a lot better off with him on the roster. Thompson made a mistake. Why is that so hard for people to accept? I see signatures as if Thompson is God like? The Eagles were smart enough to know that it was a rent for one year. We could have signed Jenkins for the same money which as it turned out wasn't all that great. But the problem was Thompson never entered into the negoitations even when the market for him came down. I'm getting tired of the injury prone argument as well regarding Jenkins. Some said Jenkins wouldn't last the year out. He missed one game! Then they downgraded his production to inforce their earlier "I love Ted" no matter what position. He had 17 1/2 pressures/sacks for the Eagles. Hell I would have done backflips over that. What did his replacements get? You can speak to Colledge but three years ago Ted also left the team without a viable option at OT. That resulted in a record # of sacks allowed and nearly got Rodgers killed. Gambling doesn't always work. Neal showed precious little in his past to roll the dice on. If you want to make the argument that Jenkins was injury prone how can you ignore the same with Neal? Jenkins was a productive player for the Packers in a 3-4 and he was a productive player for the Eagles in a 4-3 as well. You don't think he was a difference maker and I do. But I have his history and production on my side regarding Jenkins.

No one expects Ted to be perfect and no one should gloss over mistakes he has made particularly in this instance. Winky eye right back at you.

 

[mor4les]

2011-2012 season.... We need to sign big name defensive players!!!
2010-2011 season.... We need to sign a big name running back now!!!!

So because we won the SB this year you think be should approach the of season the same way we did that last year? Is that what you are trying to say?

 

[TJV]

13 Times Champs,

You brought up Bishop's statement to support the idea that Thompson made a mistake in not signing Jenkins, right? That’s all I was saying and as I said there was nothing wrong with that.

You addressed your post to me and ask why is it so hard for some people to accept that Thompson made a mistake, yet I posted not re-signing Jenkins was a mistake. Also, you don’t know if Jenkins brought the Eagles offer back to the Packers to match or better, do you? And in any event, Jenkins may have preferred to play in a four man front which presents more opportunities for making plays than in the Packers 3 or 2 man fronts. Do you claim to know what Jenkins and his agent were thinking at the time?

You can be tired of the injury prone argument and you’re of course entitled to that opinion. But you aren’t entitled to your "own facts" and here's the fact: In Jenkins' last three years in Green Bay he played 31 of a possible 48 regular season games. That’s less than 65% of those games. Thompson can't predict the future. All he can do is consider the facts before him and the fact is in January of 2011 Jenkins turned 30-years old and the fact is he had missed more than one-third of regular season games over the past three seasons. That’s also part of Jenkins' history you "have on your side".

If anyone posted Thompson never makes mistakes and/or predicted Jenkins future, I suggest you find those posts and address those posters.

I’m not glossing over Thompson’s mistakes: I’m attempting to put them, and his successes in perspective. While you appear to be obsessing about one transaction.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

2011-2012 season.... We need to sign big name defensive players!!!
2010-2011 season.... We need to sign a big name running back now!!!!

The funniest part is that the Packers now need both!!

 

[13 Times Champs]

13 Times Champs,

You brought up Bishop's statement to support the idea that Thompson made a mistake in not signing Jenkins, right? That’s all I was saying and as I said there was nothing wrong with that.

You addressed your post to me and ask why is it so hard for some people to accept that Thompson made a mistake, yet I posted not re-signing Jenkins was a mistake. Also, you don’t know if Jenkins brought the Eagles offer back to the Packers to match or better, do you? And in any event, Jenkins may have preferred to play in a four man front which presents more opportunities for making plays than in the Packers 3 or 2 man fronts. Do you claim to know what Jenkins and his agent were thinking at the time?

You can be tired of the injury prone argument and you’re of course entitled to that opinion. But you aren’t entitled to your "own facts" and here's the fact: In Jenkins' last three years in Green Bay he played 31 of a possible 48 regular season games. That’s less than 65% of those games. Thompson can't predict the future. All he can do is consider the facts before him and the fact is in January of 2011 Jenkins turned 30-years old and the fact is he had missed more than one-third of regular season games over the past three seasons. That’s also part of Jenkins' history you "have on your side".

If anyone posted Thompson never makes mistakes and/or predicted Jenkins future, I suggest you find those posts and address those posters.

I’m not glossing over Thompson’s mistakes: I’m attempting to put them, and his successes in perspective. While you appear to be obsessing about one transaction.

Posters haven't stated he never makes mistakes in those exact words but it is clear from their posts they believe it to be true. Sorry you took that to mean you. As far as the obssessing thing, I am only responding to posts directed my way on this matter with my opinion.

No, I don't know the ins and outs of the negoitiations but it is pretty clear to me that Thompson never had an interest in resigning him. Are you aware of any offer he ever made to Jenkins?

As far as the injury thing the only thing that matters is that we know Jenkins played the entire 2011 season except for one game. You have also heavily weighted the injury thing going back three years. In 2009 he played all 16 games and in 2010 11 of 16 games. And the facts are Thompson placed undue confidence in a guy who has been injury prone since college and was unproven. To me bringing up the injury thing in one instance and ignoring it in another is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Croak]

Posters haven't stated he never makes mistakes in those exact words but it is clear from their posts they believe it to be true. Sorry you took that to mean you. As far as the obssessing thing, I am only responding to posts directed my way on this matter with my opinion.

No, I don't know the ins and outs of the negoitiations but it is pretty clear to me that Thompson never had an interest in resigning him. Are you aware of any offer he ever made to Jenkins?

As far as the injury thing the only thing that matters is that we know Jenkins played the entire 2011 season except for one game. And the facts are Thompson placed undue confidence in a guy who has been injury prone since college and was unproven. To me bringing up the injury thing in one instance and ignoring it in another is a bit disingenuous.

Normally the organization doesn't make a lot of offers to players until after the season is over and free agency is about to begin. Jenkins somehow got the impression he wasn't wanted before that time. He had his mind made up as soon as the Super Bowl was over. This was before the time the team *normally* takes care of such contracts, unless it's a real high priority person. We don't know if it was something the organization said or did, or it was Jenkins agent being impatient for an early signing. We don't have those facts and probably never will. So all we have are conjectures and innuendo from Jenkins' statements. So it really doesn't serve a purpose looking into a "he said" "she said" kind of thing like we had with another certain notable free agent in the past.

 

[13 Times Champs]

Normally the organization doesn't make a lot of offers to players until after the season is over and free agency is about to begin. Jenkins somehow got the impression he wasn't wanted before that time. He had his mind made up as soon as the Super Bowl was over. This was before the time the team *normally* takes care of such contracts, unless it's a real high priority person. We don't know if it was something the organization said or did, or it was Jenkins agent being impatient for an early signing. We don't have those facts and probably never will. So all we have are conjectures and innuendo from Jenkins' statements. So it really doesn't serve a purpose looking into a "he said" "she said" kind of thing like we had with another certain notable free agent in the past.

Players, agents and organizations fall in and out of love all the time in these instances. It is not unusual for there to be acrimony at the start and then they kiss and make up. But you have two have to willing partners. Most of the time we only hear the player or agents side. You call it innuendo I call it posturing. The organizations are more close mouthed in these instances and Thompson is particularly.

I remember well before the end of last season that Jenkins somehow got the impression he wasn't wanted around. I think there was a reason. Maybe Thompson made his mind up for him.

 

[TJV]

Are you aware of any offer he ever made to Jenkins?

No and that’s my point, neither of us know.

As far as the injury thing the only thing that matters is that we know Jenkins played the entire 2011 season except for one game.

Here is where we disagree completely. As we analyze Thompson’s decision of one year ago it doesn’t matter at all, because Thompson didn’t have this information at the time. IMO the only fair way to criticize any past action is to look at the available information at the time the decision was made. And if Jenkins only would have agreed to a longer-term deal with the Packers (unlike the deal he signed), Thompson had to consider more than just the 2011 season.

You have also heavily weighted the injury thing going back three years. In 2009 he played all 16 games and in 2010 11 of 16 games. And the facts are Thompson placed undue confidence in a guy who has been injury prone since college and was unproven. To me bringing up the injury thing in one instance and ignoring it in another is a bit disingenuous.

“Disingenuous” is a strong word. Here are some synonyms for it: Deceitful, insincere, and dishonest. Keep in mind I have posted not signing Jenkins to the deal he was offered by Philly, if Thompson was given the chance, was a mistake. I could say you are being disingenuous in neglecting to mention the difference in the ages of Jenkins and Neal. At the time of the decision Mike Neal was 24-years old and Cullen Jenkins was 30. Younger players have a better chance to overcome injuries than older players. IMO its clear Thompson’s bias is toward younger players and I’m sure that plays a part in that bias. What is most important to me is how successful this bias is in the long-term regarding many decisions/transactions. But I don’t think it was disingenuous of you; I think you were just emphasizing evidence that supports your view.

Posters haven't stated he never makes mistakes in those exact words but it is clear from their posts they believe it to be true. Sorry you took that to mean you.

Just for future reference if you address a post to me, I will continue to take it to mean me.

 

[JacobInFlorida]

.I think the problem with this thread is that nobody sees the difference between a significant free agent signing and signing free agents. For example, signing Mario Williams is a signficant free agent signing. He'd require a large amount of cash and be high profile. If the Packers sign a veteran defensive end who can make plays at a reasonable salary, that's a free agent signing. The Packers can/should add players through free agency. What people have to realize is that these players do not need to be expensive.

I think most see the difference. Those veteran guys that make a reasonable salary are often grossly overpaid too compared to the replacement level guy that's already on the team that is still getting better. Is it worth it to go out and pay 3x the salary of the replacement level guy for maybe slightly better production? The Pickett and Woodson type deals are very very very far and few between. I believe if TT finds more guys like that he wont hesitate to go after them, but they aren't out there every year just waiting to be signed.

 

[Croak]

Players, agents and organizations fall in and out of love all the time in these instances. It is not unusual for there to be acrimony at the start and then they kiss and make up. But you have two have to willing partners. Most of the time we only hear the player or agents side. You call it innuendo I call it posturing. The organizations are more close mouthed in these instances and Thompson is particularly.

I remember well before the end of last season that Jenkins somehow got the impression he wasn't wanted around. I think there was a reason. Maybe Thompson made his mind up for him.

A similar case is happening right now. Donald Driver has gotten the impression he won't be around next year. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors there, but these guys pick up on stuff. Donald isn't bugged about it, though. He knows it's the reality of the business.

 

[Forget Favre]

2011-2012 season.... We need to sign big name defensive players!!!
2010-2011 season.... We need to sign a big name running back now!!!!

In the meantime, the running game is just mediocre. There weren't any constant big break out performances or surprises such as last year's Starks and Kuhn.
And Grant gets crucified because of his drop in the playoff and fans around here want him gone after missing him last year.
So do we still need a running back or has that problem been taken care of?
And what will the cry be for the needs next season?
Is it always going to be something no matter how good the Packers are doing?
Yeah. I think so.

 

[Forget Favre]

A similar case is happening right now. Donald Driver has gotten the impression he won't be around next year. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors there, but these guys pick up on stuff. Donald isn't bugged about it, though. He knows it's the reality of the business.

Out of all the situations right now, Donald leaving is the one that we would all hate the most to see happen.
Or it's in the top three at least.

 

[13 Times Champs]

No and that’s my point, neither of us know.

Here is where we disagree completely. As we analyze Thompson’s decision of one year ago it doesn’t matter at all, because Thompson didn’t have this information at the time. IMO the only fair way to criticize any past action is to look at the available information at the time the decision was made. And if Jenkins only would have agreed to a longer-term deal with the Packers (unlike the deal he signed), Thompson had to consider more than just the 2011 season.

“Disingenuous” is a strong word. Here are some synonyms for it: Deceitful, insincere, and dishonest. Keep in mind I have posted not signing Jenkins to the deal he was offered by Philly, if Thompson was given the chance, was a mistake. I could say you are being disingenuous in neglecting to mention the difference in the ages of Jenkins and Neal. At the time of the decision Mike Neal was 24-years old and Cullen Jenkins was 30. Younger players have a better chance to overcome injuries than older players. IMO its clear Thompson’s bias is toward younger players and I’m sure that plays a part in that bias. What is most important to me is how successful this bias is in the long-term regarding many decisions/transactions. But I don’t think it was disingenuous of you; I think you were just emphasizing evidence that supports your view.

Just for future reference if you address a post to me, I will continue to take it to mean me.

If Thompson had wanted to he could have got in the bargaining for Jenkins and offered the same deal Philly did. Nothing stopped him from doing that prior to him signing the Philly deal.

Regarding the word disingenious my dictionary says not being straightforward. Also I said a bit disingenious. Bit is defined as a small piece, portion , or amount. But I don't think you were being disingenuous by providing a more negative connotation to the word or not mentioning I said a bit. The healing powers of a 24 year old vs a 30 year old are debatable particularly when the 24 year old took a particularly long time to come back from an injury suffered in the preseason. But I don't think you were being disingenious with this argument. I think you were just emphasizing evidence that supports your view.

Neither did I think you were being disingenuous by offering this statement when I had not said anything to the effect.

"I respect Desmond Bishop’s opinion, but regarding talent acquisition and building a team, I respect Ted Thompson’s opinion much, much more."

And in the future I would also appreciate it if you address me directly rather than indirectly as was the case with the above quote.

 

[13 Times Champs]

A similar case is happening right now. Donald Driver has gotten the impression he won't be around next year. I don't know what goes on behind closed doors there, but these guys pick up on stuff. Donald isn't bugged about it, though. He knows it's the reality of the business.

Well I love Donald Driver but I think Donald knows he's played a long time and is slowing down.

 

[NelsonsLongCatch]

I think most see the difference. Those veteran guys that make a reasonable salary are often grossly overpaid too compared to the replacement level guy that's already on the team that is still getting better. Is it worth it to go out and pay 3x the salary of the replacement level guy for maybe slightly better production? The Pickett and Woodson type deals are very very very far and few between. I believe if TT finds more guys like that he wont hesitate to go after them, but they aren't out there every year just waiting to be signed.

What you said has no basis... Replacement players demand/get 3x's the salary of other players? If this is true, why would anybody resign with their current team? Why not just hit the free agent market and get a 300% pay increase.

 

[Wood Chipper]

In the meantime, the running game is just mediocre. There weren't any constant big break out performances or surprises such as last year's Starks and Kuhn.
And Grant gets crucified because of his drop in the playoff and fans around here want him gone after missing him last year.
So do we still need a running back or has that problem been taken care of?
And what will the cry be for the needs next season?
Is it always going to be something no matter how good the Packers are doing?
Yeah. I think so.

At the same time we were decent at running not outstanding. Last place running team was the Giants with 89 yards per game.

 

[JacobInFlorida]

What you said has no basis... Replacement players demand/get 3x's the salary of other players? If this is true, why would anybody resign with their current team? Why not just hit the free agent market and get a 300% pay increase.

No, I'm saying the lower tier veteran free agents still make 3x what replacement level players that are not elgible for free agency which is somewhere around league minimum. They very often do not provide 3x the production of the replacement level player though. That's where you have to be careful. It's not just about the "splash" free agents.

 

[TJV]

If Thompson had wanted to he could have got in the bargaining for Jenkins and offered the same deal Philly did. Nothing stopped him from doing that prior to him signing the Philly deal.

Again, you don’t know what went on between Thompson, Ball, Jenkins and his agent. Jenkins may not have accepted the same deal from Green Bay because he preferred to play in a 4-3. I’m not saying that’s what happened because I don’t know. And neither do you.

And in the future I would also appreciate it if you address me directly rather than indirectly as was the case with the above quote.

I was commenting on ivo610’s reaction to Bishop’s quote – it’s not always about you.

 

[B-ri]

It'll be interesting to see the kind of money that Avril gets, and Where he goes. I'd love it if we could pick him up. I think he's an excellent player.

He's a guy I'm a bit scared of in FA. How much did he benefit from playing next to Suh and Vanden Bosch?
I could see a team throwing big money at the guy only to find out he's overrated. This is one of the pitfalls of FA.

Granted, if he's the real deal it would be a great pickup, as it's a + for GB and a - for DET