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What would you give up for Revis?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by ivo610, Jan 23, 2013.

  1. NelsonsLongCatch

    NelsonsLongCatch Cheesehead

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    If the Packers tag Jennings I would love to hear the comments from his sister. It would be hilarious.
     
  2. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    I'd never say never but I think $14 to $16 million would be carzy money to pay him. Cornerbacks have not had good luck coming back from that injury.
     
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  3. BorderRivals.com

    BorderRivals.com Cheesehead

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    The cap impact has no doubt been discussed at length in relation to this deal. Revis would obviously demand a max deal. With him on board, Packers would be forced to cut ties with Raji because there's no way to sign Revis, Rodgers, and Matthews. This is another big reason I don't see this working for the Packers: http://wp.me/p29VCs-fO

    Don't get me wrong, straight up, everyone would take Revis over Raji. But, the Packers simply do not have anyone like Raji. If we lost Raji, Pickett would swing back to NT for his final season. Our DE's would be a combo of Neal, Worthy, Wilson, Daniels, etc. Needless to say, the line would become a major liability. And though we could try to rebuild through the draft. We've seen how it's not a sure thing - particularly without a slew of picks traded away for Revis. Bottom line, if Raji is not resigned, it wouldn't matter that we could cover every passing attack because teams would run it down our throats all game long.

    Given the depth of the secondary (with four average or better CB's), the lack of depth on the line, and cap limitations, trading for Revis just doesn't work for the Packers.
     
  4. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    From Peter king

    ***
    The Revis story.
    First, kudos to CBS' Jason La Canfora for breaking the story that the Jets may trade Revis instead of paying him an ungodly sum to stay and anchor their secondary. That's good work by La Canfora.
    I am categorically, adamantly opposed to the Jets trading Revis. I believe Woody Johnson will rue the day he trades the best cornerback -- a slightly risky tag, obviously, given that he's coming off October knee surgery -- regardless of how uncomfortable the Jets' salary cap fit is right now. You don't trade great players at vital positions in their prime. You never recoup the value.
    In today's game, quarterback is the most important position, followed in some order by pass rusher, cornerback and left tackle. Given that we've just seen the most passes thrown in any NFL season, I'd say corner or pass rusher is now the second-most important position to fill. How good is Revis? I'll let my friend Neil Hornsby of ProFootballFocus.com expound on that right after this section. But in short, he's damn good. And while any knee surgery is a worry, there's no credible indication that he'll be significantly worse for wear in 2013 coming off ACL surgery. Heck, linebacker Thomas Davis of the Panthers tore the same ACL three times in three seasons -- in 2009, 2010 and 2011 -- and still played well in 2012.
    Revis will be 28 on opening day next year. Two of the league's best five corners in 2012 were Champ Bailey, 34, and Charles Tillman, 31. There is no reason to suggest age will be an issue with Revis.
    A couple of pieces of history here.
    One: In 2007, when the Jets drafted Revis, they traded their first-, second- and fifth-round picks, 25th, 59th and 164th overall, to Carolina for the 14th pick. Revis was picked 14th. Carolina picked linebacker Jon Beason 25th and center Ryan Kalil 59th. Beason made three Pro Bowls in his first four seasons but has struggled with injuries since; Kalil has started 68 games since, and also has made three Pro Bowl teams. So if you're going to trade Revis, understand you're trading a player who cost you first- and second-round picks to acquire -- and if the Jets had hung onto the second-rounder, they could have turned it into a player at a need position like guard-tackle Marshal Yanda or defensive tackle Brandon Mebane. So it would be folly for the Jets, if they did the deal, to crow about getting first- and second-round picks in return; that's what they traded to get him in the first place.
    Two: If the Jets trade Revis, they'll be putting a dagger through coach Rex Ryan's heart. In effect, barring an upset, they'd be firing him nine or 10 months early. They'd be saying to him, We know the most important thing to your defense is the cornerback position, and everything you do on defense is predicated on your corners holding up, but we're trading Revis anyway. After the Jets lost to Peyton Manning in the 2009 AFC title game, Ryan told GM Mike Tannenbaum he had to have more corners, and so the Jets traded a second-round pick to San Diego for cornerback Antonio Cromartie, then drafted cornerback Kyle Wilson from Boise State in the first round. Ryan always said Revis was the best corner he'd been around, but he needed more. And Tannenbaum went out and got them. History has shown the Jets overvalued Wilson, who is just a guy. Cromartie is good. Without Revis, it's a pedestrian secondary.
    Now, about the money. Revis has a year left on his contract, provided he doesn't hold out, and he will want to be the highest-paid defensive player in the game. Currently, Chicago defensive end Julius Peppers makes an average of $15.3 million a year; Buffalo pass rusher Mario Williams averages $16 million a year. There is no doubt Revis is better at his position than Peppers or Williams is at theirs -- of course, assuming Revis comes back whole from his surgery.
    You see I keep glossing over the surgery aspect for Revis. That's because knee surgeries are so advanced now that it's assumed the player will be able to return to the form of his former self. Adrian Peterson might have been better this year after a more serious knee surgery than Revis had; Wes Welker, in three seasons of cutting and sprinting since tearing his ACL and MCL, has averaged a league-high 109 catches per year. So although it has to be a concern, I don't think it should concern the Jets enough to scare them off from paying him.
    If I were the Jets, I'd tell Revis he needs to show he's back to Revis form in the first, say, half of the season. Then I'd lock him up for five years, at $17 million per, in a deal where the guaranteed money will counter-balance the fact that the Jets are in cap trouble right now.
    If the Jets choose to shop him, I have a feeling Denver football operations czar John Elway will try hard to convince owner Pat Bowlen that Revis would be the missing piece to a championship team. The Broncos are $14.2 million under the cap this morning, but that doesn't include the estimated $10 million they'd need to budget for free agent tackle Ryan Clady, who's a must-keep. That could be lower, of course, with a long-term deal for Clady. And they could save money by reworking Peyton Manning's $20 million cap number this year.
    Andy Reid could be tempted with $17 million of cap room in Kansas City, and GM Trent Baalke in San Francisco could be a player too; the Niners will have significant money available when -- I presume -- they dump Alex Smith before April 1. And there are other teams that might be willing to give a first-round pick plus other value (maybe a third-rounder and a journeyman cornerback as well) for Revis. But remember, the compensation isn't just two picks and a player, or whatever ... it's also wrecking your cap in a flat-cap era for Revis, instead of the significantly more manageable money the fixed-cost high-draft choices now provide.
    The Jets also need to make the decision on Revis in 2013. Why? They gave away the ability to franchise Revis when they negotiated the current contract, and so if Revis plays out this year, there's not only the reality of getting nothing in return for him if he walks in free agency. There's also the risk of Revis signing with New England. What's the position that has made Bill Belichick look like a dunce on recent draft days? Cornerback. And if Revis went on to play in New England, and play superbly, the fans would be coming to the Meadowlands with pitchforks and torches looking for owner Woody Johnson.
    But I don't care what they'd get in return, unless someone (other than New England, a team the Jets obviously should do no business with) does something stupid like offer three first-rounders and a decent player. It won't be worth it. In this league, at cornerback, if you've got the best, you grit your teeth and pay the man.
    ***
    The Deep End
    Each week, thanks to play-by-play game dissection by ProFootballFocus.com, I'm able to look at one important matchup or individual performance metric in pro football through the keen eyes of PFF czar Neil Hornsby. This week, he examines how good Revis is, with the news that the Jets are examining whether to keep Revis or trade him before he becomes an unrestricted free agent in March 2014. Hornsby's report:
    "If Darrelle Revis is a player in decline, I don't see it. It doesn't wash from a statistical point of view or on tape. Since 2009, the only season that anyone could legitimately say he wasn't the best corner in football was 2010, where despite clearly being hampered by injury, he still held up incredibly well. Even in 2012, if you extrapolate the very small sample of data, he would have led the league in most categories.
    "Simply put, if you throw the ball at him it doesn't get completed. Since 2009, his ranking in completion percentage of balls targeted at him is first, first, second and first (though he had but 93 snaps in 2012). Additionally he doesn't give up big plays -- Revis has allowed only six touchdowns in his last 1,607 coverage snaps -- and consequently quarterbacks have no success throwing at him. The QB rating into his coverage since 2008 has been 32.3, 78.8, 45.6 and 6.3 in those four seasons ... but don't forget that 78.8 came in 2010, when he was playing hurt.
    "For those who want to point to the decline of Nnamdi Asomugha since his move to Philadelphia, this is a completely different scenario. Before going east, Asomugha almost always played man coverage on the right side of Oakland's defense. Being the best player in a suboptimal secondary that never changed position, he could be avoided with ease and this allowed him to build a hugely impressive statistical resume. When he was asked to play different positions and more zone, Asomugha's failings became obvious. What makes Revis' resume all the more remarkable is that he almost always tracks the opposition's No. 1 receiver (even into the slot) and far more often than not shuts them down. His track record is remarkable."


    Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nf...ing-monday-morning-quarterback/#ixzz2JGqYVjqr
     
  5. ThxJackVainisi

    ThxJackVainisi Lifelong Packers Fanatic

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    I don't doubt Revis is the best CB in the league. But the two pieces of information underlined above spell the end of the story regarding him coming to Green Bay. Don't they?

    For example, what would agreeing to that kind of deal mean for the Matthews' negotiation? Or does anyone think Revis is more important to the D than Matthews?
     
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  6. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    You can still do a Matthews Rodgers Revis deal. 2 of those have to be bonus heavy and long term.

    You could argue Revis could be more valuable than Matthews in the NFC north.

    Cut Woodson, trade tramon, and you have your $. I don't believe Woodson had much if any impact on the field in 2012 so no loss there. No one would argue Revis isn't a huge upgrade over tramon
     
  7. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    If we traded Rodgers and Matthews for Revis, I bet that the deal would work.

    Sarcasm
    Sarcasm!!!
    SARCASM!!!!!!
     
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  8. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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    Guess I'll repeat myself and say are we sure a guy coming off an acl would be the same? Risky in my opinion.
     
  9. 7thFloorRA

    7thFloorRA Cheesehead

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    On 2nd thought....it may take Pepper until 2014 to get Revis back on the field.
     
  10. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    AGAIN, people should read the piece on Revis that I posted that Peter king wrote. He addresses almost everything that has been posted INCLUDING his injury and how it's not a big concern.
     
  11. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    I'd see what we could do with a trade to the Jets where they get Tramon...we still have House and Shields and Hayward which is what our future looks like I believe (possibly a rookie coming in as well). If the Revis deal doesn't work out no biggy....this scenario all of course hinges on not making him a huge contract offer for many years upon this trade...he's got what one more year on his contract correct? Personally though I don't feel he's the right mindset to be a Packer, but I can't deny being able to add him to our CBs would just flat out be nasty in the NFC North.
     
  12. The Boatman

    The Boatman @JB3LL

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    i don't think we have a coverage problem. we have a lack of pressure problem. when the giants won the superbowl they had one of the worst secondaries as far as talent goes, but anyone can cover for a second when your DL is wreaking havoc. everyone is diagnosing the symptoms instead of the illness.
     
  13. net

    net Cheesehead

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    Nothing. He can stay with the Jets, thank you. He constantly complains about his money.
     
  14. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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  15. tynimiller

    tynimiller Cheesehead

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    Anyone will tell you one huge factor of getting pressure is good coverage...granted I too don't feel he's a "needed" asset and if we go out into trades or FA I have others higher on my "desire" list.
     
  16. El Guapo

    El Guapo Cheesehead

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    This is the same as arguing about whether your feet or legs are most important to running. You need good coverage and a strong pass rush to create pressure on the QB. Neither is more important than the other
     
  17. 13 Times Champs

    13 Times Champs Cheesehead

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  18. HardRightEdge

    HardRightEdge Cheesehead

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    No surprise here. I conjectured in midseason the nerve damage was not resolved. It might heal; it might not. There could be permanent weakness. Now it just comes down to who performs in competition.
     
  19. weeds

    weeds Cheesehead

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    What would I give up for Revis?

    I'd give up french fries for six months ... throw in a bag of baseballs and a pack of Luckies.

    Having never met the guy -- my impression of the guy is that he's one of those ego maniacal crap talkers that don't understand the concept of what a team is ... and makes it abundantly clear every time he opens his mouth. If you have a problem with Jermichael Finley's talking...imagine THAT guy in the Packers locker room.
     
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  20. Southpaw

    Southpaw Endorphin Junkie

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    A guy coming off an devastating injury coming to Green Bay.....hmmmmm.

    Something tells me that's not a good idea. With our luck and trainers, he'd probably end up never seeing the field
     
  21. Alex

    Alex Cheesehead

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    At least he backs it up with performance unlike ol' slap hands.
     
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  22. ivo610

    ivo610 Cheesehead

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    I've honestly never heard him spout anything bad to the media, in NYC of all places.

    Can you give examples of what you are referring to?
     
  23. bozz_2006

    bozz_2006 Cheesehead

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    I'm with ivo. I've only ever encountered him as a bit soft-spoken and maybe a bit distant (hey, if you were the top player in the league at your position and you were a member of that ****-show they call the Jets, wouldn't you be a bit distant too?).

    Reminiscent of a certain Packer CB that secured his spot in the HOF after languishing in Oakland and being left for dead by every single team in the league.... except one;)
     
  24. paulska

    paulska Cheesehead

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    A few thoughts on this thread:
    1. On the risk of whether or not Revis returns to physical form after the knee injury? Adrian Peterson is an outlier, some day? What about Wes Welker? Speedy return, zero drop off in play. Medicine is evolving, and treatment of these kinds of injuries is no longer the kind of crap shoot it once was. If you think that Revis, with his earning potential, isn't fastidiously following the regimen that AP and Welker followed? You may need medication. :) I'd argue that the chances of him not returning to physical form are inordinately slim.

    2. Revis is a head case? Revis has publicly chafed by holding out, but he hasn't been a mouth in NYC despite having the single largest media market as a platform to do so. His team is a vitrual who's who of twitter idiots (yes, I'm referring to Santana Moss and Bart Scott), but he's not a culprit in the social media/soundbite sideshow. His play also never suffered in direct correlation to his dissatisfaction with his pay- he was an all-pro two seasons ago while he was unhappy, and he was headed that way again until he hurt his knee this season.

    3. Revis as inferior to Charles Woodson at the time of his signing with GB. Strongly disagree. Revisionist history- up until Woodson landed in Green Bay under Capers and had a DC willing to think outside the box to maximize both his physical and mental gifts, he was largely a straight cover guy. He was not a dynamic, multifaceted player who could switch from physical run supporter to safety to cover LB to zone CB to slot man nickel. That all came after he signed with us here. Woodson had more wear on his tread when we signed him, and concerns about diminished physical tools. LOADS of packer fans were livid that we paid Woodson a huge contract, which included a first year salary of well over 10 million, for what appeared to be his name value alone given the lack of production and/or play in the preceding two seasons.

    Revis is one season removed from being the definitive best CB in the game from a coverage perspective, and remember that he's playing in a scheme where that's the sum total of what his team wants from him. They have ZERO intention of moving him around the field. They want him on one side so they can roll help to Cromartie's side to create turnovers.

    Revis is one of the best players in the entire NFL. He is to the CB position what ARod is to the QB position, and what CM3 is to the 34 OLB position. He's peerless, and he's worth 14 million a year because of what he lets you do with the rest of your defensive scheme. Remember that CB isn't like RB- the wheels don't come off at 30. Both Woodson and Champ Bailey played elite level CB well into their 30's. Revis is a similar, if not superior, talent. You're looking at a window of 7 years of the best coverage a CB can provide.

    4. We can't afford him. This argument has some wheels, no doubt. I think if you get Revis, you send the Jets Tramon, one of the top 5 salaries on our team. Then you let him play this season to make sure the knee is right and he gels with our scheme. If the early returns are good, you start negotiations post haste. Remember that Charles Woodson was persuaded to make it work in GB because of a savvy contract structure- he earned some HUGE first year coin in recognition of what the team felt he was worth, and that allowed the later years of the deal to be lesser cap hits and provide flexibility to take care of other contracts. With some of the space we've cleared by cutting Woodson, Saturday and not retaining Jennings (there's more to be saved if Finley is let go or traded), I know we've got ARod and CM3 to extend, but there's still some significant cap room to give Revis a first year that cements his status and value with the team.

    HOWEVER, if you can't trade Tramon to the Jets for Revis, then you don't bother at all. You can't keep Tramon's big deal and have Revis here- you become the Eagles Dream Team 2.0 over-committed to one position group.

    5. The price tag to get him is too high. This is legitimate. If Tramon and a first rounder and a conditional 3rd doesn't make sense for the Jets, then it's overspending to bring him in. If he's worth three first rounders to the Jets, then they should pay him like he's worth that much, plain and simple.

    In any case, this whole discussion is intriguing. It's been a long time since we cleared as much cap space as we have right now- it'll be fascinating to see how it's leveraged this offseason to take the team back to elite contender for the SB by addressing our significant defensive shortcomings...
     
  25. texaspackerbacker

    texaspackerbacker Cheesehead

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    I don't see that Raji is such a sacred cow (the cow part suits him though), and I don't see him as much of a run stopper. There has to see somebody with a degree of toughness we could get for the NT position. I would hate to see the Packers spend huge money for Revis, though, and to give up Tramon Williams and a first and third round pick or anything close to that just for the privilege of throwing that money at Revis? That's just ridiculous.
     

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