What TT Gets Right and Wrong about FA

[tynimiller]

I have so many issues with this logic.... By your logic the Bengals have a top 3 GM because they make the playoffs every year. When in reality they are the laughing stock of the league. Playoff appearance and "consistency" are the most over-rated things in sports.

The Cavs just fired the 6th most winingest coach of all time because they only care about Championships. The Chargers fired a 13-3 coach because he didn't get them there. They have been calling for Marvin Lewis's head for years.

No one cares about consistency... Ill take 2 super bowls in 8 years, and out of the playoffs every other. Than 7 out of 8 years not being quite good enough.

It's a philosophical thing... TT is good enough not to get fired. Because he risks nothing. But is also not good enough in my mind to because even consideration of top 3 GMs in the league.

Current GMs...top 3 probably not, top 5 I would argue all day long.

I get your stance but that simply isn't the case. As for your reference in that time frame guess how many times the Bengals have been there?

7

Not as good as TT, and not even a SB appearance....shoot they haven't even been to an AFC Ship...and have been 0-7 in playoff games.

TT and GB in that stretch: 8-7 record, 3 NFC Ship games, 1 SB appearance and won it.


Now I am not comparing TT to Bengals to prove he is elite...only to disprove that the Bengals by comparison do not have a Top 3 GM at all.

 

[Grave]

Comparing teams now to teams in the 80s with no salary cap and no free agency doesn't make sense. Once a great team was put together, it stayed together.

Which is why FA is so important.

 

[Half Empty]

actually he answers to a board and a president and he's been one of the most successful GM's in the NFL for a long time and part of very successful front offices before he became a GM. and if he listened to everyone on here we'd be the Browns in no time

Not going to argue with anything in the first part - strictly subjective, and you're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. However, we'd probably get along better without the hyperbole. For one thing, he couldn't listen (and, I assume, you mean act) to everyone's ideas here because they're usually disparate. However, if there was some way to reach a consensus on a particular player to draft, re-sign, trade for, sign in free agency, et. al., you (and I) have absolutely no idea what the result would be. Maybe the Delphi method would produce good results. I will give you props, though, for not guaranteeing that that's the result we'd see - I'd be financially in good order if all the people on all the boards paid up when they guarantee something is going to happen.

 

[Mondio]

hyperbole is what makes message boards go 'round.

 

[Grave]

Totally agree and all it took was watching yesterdays games to prove that. Denver and Carolina have probably some of the best linebackers in the league and their Defenses man handled two pretty decent offenses. People were complaining about Aaron Rodgers choking under pressure and saying he needs to be more like Tom Brady. You mean the Tom Brady that played yesterday?

Rodgers didn't choke. He was beaten to a pulp.

 

[Grave]

If you read Vic a little closer I think you will find that he thinks TT's approach to FA is spot on. He hates the big splash signings and loves the Peppers and Guion type signings. Vic thinks TT has the perfect approach to roster building. Vic is a Steeler fan getting paid to say what he should say about the by the Packers. He will be slightly critical on occasion but he is always quick to avoid controversy if he will be in any way seen to portray the Packers in a negative manner. Strange as it sounds I agree with him on a lot of things but I am not a big fan.

As far as Mike and Ted go if Mike is truly "fed up" as some anonymous source wants us to believe he should have the balls to say something to Ted. Who knows, maybe he has. The thing is lets say Ted goes out of character and signs the top rated ILB in free agency this year and maybe a big name LT. Mike will say "I didn't tell Ted to sign those guys" and Ted will say "Mike didn't tell me to sign those guys" but all the fans and all the media will say "Mike told Ted to sign those guys"

I think Mike is frustrated by the way the season went and I think he would love to have superstars at every position but I think he knows its not possible. I also think he is smart enough to know the difference between saying something like "we need better play from our middle linebackers" and "Ted should bring in some better middle linebackers"

What do you suppose he saw in Barclay? Palmer? Adams?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Rodgers didn't choke. He was beaten to a pulp.

For a majority of the season yes. While AR made his share of mistakes, its hard to think that being under the mind set of "oh hell am I'm going to get hit again?" "are my receivers running their routes and going to hang on to it this time?" doesn't start effecting the way you play the game and make your decisions.

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

http://gnb.247sports.com/Bolt/Ted-Thompson-couldnt-see-the-writing-on-the-wall--43134399

States a few interesting things. How we lost out on Owen Daniels (TE) who caught two key TD passes against NE in the AFC Championship. States how we could have went after Karlos Dansby and D'Quell Jackson at ILB. It went on and said how TT overestimated the ILB's on our roster along with our TE situation. Then it brings up the fact that TT isn't building around Aaron Rodgers on offense good enough.

A lot of this I agree with. However, hindsight is always 20/20.

Whether you like Owen Daniels or not, or Dansby or DQ, the fact of the matter is that TT (or someone else, MM, DC?) did overrate the abilities of our TEs and ILBs. Or, perhaps, MM didn't play the right ones.

Most of us fans had been calling for Janis and his speed element all year long, saying he could make plays deep that nobody else can, and whether or not Rodgers could throw it far enough to him, not underthrow him as he's done usually to Janis, just the fact that the defense has to respect his speed would open up things a bit.

Perhaps McCarthy or Capers have erred with the ILB work too. I know many fans were calling for Sam Barrington for a while before he got inserted in there. I also recall the same thing with Desmond Bishop too. Each guy came in and fairly quickly boosted the defense.

Nate Palmer is not an inside linebacker and I showed a video on twitter of him in coverage once... it was atrocious.

The Packers recently re-signed Carl Bradford after the practice squads were done upon completion of the season. That means they still want him around..... I will always wonder if he could have been better than Palmer, Joe Thomas, Jake Ryan inside....he must be a slow learner. Or is he a guy who doesn't get many reps in practice, like Janis didn't, but perhaps he'd learn quickly on the fly and inject life and physicality to our middle of the defense?

We might never know. But one thing is sure, and that's true that someone overrated our ILBs who have played. McCarthy saying he needs to get Matthews back outside is evidence of that, he agrees.

I like Damarious Randall. I like Q Rollins more.
I wanted one of those ILBs instead of Randall. I couldn't make up my mind between Perryman, Kendricks, Anthony, or Dawson.... but I wanted TT to take one of them, whoever he felt was better.

 

[adambr2]

Anyone follow Paul (PJ) Dawson this year? I was surprised we passed on him at the end of the 3rd to take Montgomery and was curious as to how he was panning out for Cincy.

 

[RRyder]

I have so many issues with this logic.... By your logic the Bengals have a top 3 GM because they make the playoffs every year. When in reality they are the laughing stock of the league. Playoff appearance and "consistency" are the most over-rated things in sports.

The Cavs just fired the 6th most winingest coach of all time because they only care about Championships. The Chargers fired a 13-3 coach because he didn't get them there. They have been calling for Marvin Lewis's head for years.

No one cares about consistency... Ill take 2 super bowls in 8 years, and out of the playoffs every other. Than 7 out of 8 years not being quite good enough.

It's a philosophical thing... TT is good enough not to get fired. Because he risks nothing. But is also not good enough in my mind to because even consideration of top 3 GMs in the league.

I've had this discussion with you before and I do understand your point even if I don't agree with it personally but your bolded examples are bad.

The Cavs didn't fire anywhere near a good coach despite his record. Unbelievably bad considering the talent he had to work with is a better characterization. His record was good because in the NBA one player can and does make or break a team in terms of championship aspirations and they have Lebron and play in the Eastern conference.

SD firing Marty in favor of Nov Turner was one of the absolute dumbest decisions ever.

And yes I know they've been calling for Lewis job for a few years now but just to play devils advocate people should remember how bad that franchise was before him even I'd I think a fresh start could help both parties.

But yes I would argue the Bengals have a top GM. Top 3? Well probably not but the Bengals problem isn't talent. Which is the GM'S job to aquire. It's faltering in crucial moments. That's not on the GM. That's on the coach. Talent wise the Bengals are arguably one of the top 4-5 most talented squads in the league. Yes the Bengals do have a top GM considering the goal of a GM is to aquire and put together a talented enough team to win a championship and the Bengals have that. Whether Lewis can lead that squad to that point is another matter.....

 

[Un4GivN]

Current GMs...top 3 probably not, top 5 I would argue all day long.

I get your stance but that simply isn't the case. As for your reference in that time frame guess how many times the Bengals have been there?

7

Not as good as TT, and not even a SB appearance....shoot they haven't even been to an AFC Ship...and have been 0-7 in playoff games.

TT and GB in that stretch: 8-7 record, 3 NFC Ship games, 1 SB appearance and won it.


Now I am not comparing TT to Bengals to prove he is elite...only to disprove that the Bengals by comparison do not have a Top 3 GM at all.

But they have the talent every year... That is the point people are trying to make about TT. It's not his fault we don't win championships because the talent is there. And in honesty I think the Bengals are more "talented" than the Packers. But undisciplined.

 

[tynimiller]

But they have the talent every year... That is the point people are trying to make about TT. It's not his fault we don't win championships because the talent is there. And in honesty I think the Bengals are more "talented" than the Packers. But undisciplined.

Obvious Packer wins when comparing: QB, WR (as a whole unit...AJ is elite though), Secondary
Bengals obvious wins when comparing: TE and LBs

I do think to an extent TT isn't to blame...he gives this team a chance year in and year out with his roster make up (anyone can question some decisions even I do)...MM and staff must take some responsibility, which has as some cuts have been happening staff wise this offseason.

 

[Un4GivN]

Obvious Packer wins when comparing: QB, WR (as a whole unit...AJ is elite though), Secondary
Bengals obvious wins when comparing: TE and LBs

I do think to an extent TT isn't to blame...he gives this team a chance year in and year out with his roster make up (anyone can question some decisions even I do)...MM and staff must take some responsibility, which has as some cuts have been happening staff wise this offseason.

Agree to disagree...

RB, TE, Defensive line, LB's are all landslides to the Bengals... Though Hill was a disappointment this season, he was no worse than Lacy, and Ill take bernard over starks.

I'd give an even to
WR's (Green, Sanu, and Marvin jones are pretty damn good), Offensive line. And close in secondary. I could see you going that way though with our young group.

Overall I would only give the Packers a clear advantage in QB, maybe secondary? and kicker... Not sure I see the Packers clearly better at any other position.

 

[tynimiller]

I understand ya though!

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

Agree to disagree...

RB, TE, Defensive line, LB's are all landslides to the Bengals... Though Hill was a disappointment this season, he was no worse than Lacy, and Ill take bernard over starks.

I'd give an even to
WR's (Green, Sanu, and Marvin jones are pretty damn good), Offensive line. And close in secondary. I could see you going that way though with our young group.

Overall I would only give the Packers a clear advantage in QB, maybe secondary? and kicker... Not sure I see the Packers clearly better at any other position.

AJ Hawk was a castaway for us, a guy almost all Packers fans wanted gone 2, 3 years ago. He went to Cinci this year and played for them, behind their starters. But still, yes their ILBs are much better, but factoring in Matthews, Peppers, Neal, Perry, Jayrone at OLB, we have a strong edge there. So overall at LB, it's no landslide for either team and I think I'd take our whole cast over theirs even with the weakness at ILB.

RB, Lacy if not Superstuffed, is the best RB among these guys. I think the Bengals drafted Gio Bernard before him didn't they? I do like Jeremy Hill.... I like John Crockett and think they guy shoulda played more. But I suppoped Hill & Bernard are better than Lacy and Starks, but when Lacy is rolling, it's tough to beat. So calling that a "landslide" I think is stretching it.
TE, absolutely. I'd take some college team's TE's over ours. But Richie did make the Hail Mary catch!

 

[milani]

Just curious... How are you measuring "most successful GM". Just curious, because since Thompson took over. We have 1 super bow appearance. Pats have been to 4, Pitt has been to 3, Seahawks have been to 3, Denver has now been to 2, Colts have been to 2, Giants have been to 2. And that's only looking at the last 10 years.

Right now we are second tier at best... With the likes of Baltimore, the Saints... with 1 super bowl appearance and victory in the last 10 years. More playoff appearances but I mean so do the Bengals, and we see how that means nothing.

In my eyes I wouldn't put TT in top tier. Second tier though somewhere between 7-12. His drafting and free agency has been horrible at times. Spending years and still not finding people in certain positions like OLB. Leaving the team absolutely lacking in positions like MLB this year. Anyone who says this is hindsight is wrong, many seen this problem before the season and Clay needs to be moved back.

In years back we have put up historically bad defenses... Somehow with our nickel corner being Jarrett Bush... Went years without a true running back. It's been a mess at times.

Could not have said it better.

 

[CashInFist]

Don't know. The point is that free agency has been a big part of the roster. But maybe it's all Arian's coaching. They were 5 and 11 the year before he was hired.

I think that has the most to do with their success. It's his system.

 

[Carl]

Just curious... How are you measuring "most successful GM". Just curious, because since Thompson took over. We have 1 super bow appearance. Pats have been to 4, Pitt has been to 3, Seahawks have been to 3, Denver has now been to 2, Colts have been to 2, Giants have been to 2. And that's only looking at the last 10 years.

Right now we are second tier at best... With the likes of Baltimore, the Saints... with 1 super bowl appearance and victory in the last 10 years. More playoff appearances but I mean so do the Bengals, and we see how that means nothing.

In my eyes I wouldn't put TT in top tier. Second tier though somewhere between 7-12. His drafting and free agency has been horrible at times. Spending years and still not finding people in certain positions like OLB. Leaving the team absolutely lacking in positions like MLB this year. Anyone who says this is hindsight is wrong, many seen this problem before the season and Clay needs to be moved back.

In years back we have put up historically bad defenses... Somehow with our nickel corner being Jarrett Bush... Went years without a true running back. It's been a mess at times.

Every single team in the league has weak points. Pointing out ones the Packers have had throughout the years isn't a good way to measure a GM.

Just looking at the final four teams, the Patriots lack big time on the o-line. The Cardinals couldn't rush a QB to save their lives in the playoffs and have struggled all year to generate pressure with the d-line. The Broncos have an average QB and have the league's second-highest rate of drives ending in a pick. The Panthers, well, apparently they lack corner depth, but I'll give you I don't see a big weakness on them.

We even won the Super Bowl with the OLB weakness you pointed out. In that game, we also had weak points at strong safety, TE, and maybe RT (I've seen mixed reviews on Bulaga as a rookie).

Pointing out a couple specific roster weaknesses is not a good way to judge a GM.

 

[Carl]

I have so many issues with this logic.... By your logic the Bengals have a top 3 GM because they make the playoffs every year. When in reality they are the laughing stock of the league. Playoff appearance and "consistency" are the most over-rated things in sports.

The Cavs just fired the 6th most winingest coach of all time because they only care about Championships. The Chargers fired a 13-3 coach because he didn't get them there. They have been calling for Marvin Lewis's head for years.

No one cares about consistency... Ill take 2 super bowls in 8 years, and out of the playoffs every other. Than 7 out of 8 years not being quite good enough.

It's a philosophical thing... TT is good enough not to get fired. Because he risks nothing. But is also not good enough in my mind to because even consideration of top 3 GMs in the league.

The problem with the firing examples you mentioned is the Chargers move completely backfired.

 

[CashInFist]

Every single team in the league has weak points. Pointing out ones the Packers have had throughout the years isn't a good way to measure a GM.

Just looking at the final four teams, the Patriots lack big time on the o-line. The Cardinals couldn't rush a QB to save their lives in the playoffs and have struggled all year to generate pressure with the d-line. The Broncos have an average QB and have the league's second-highest rate of drives ending in a pick. The Panthers, well, apparently they lack corner depth, but I'll give you I don't see a big weakness on them.

We even won the Super Bowl with the OLB weakness you pointed out. In that game, we also had weak points at strong safety, TE, and maybe RT (I've seen mixed reviews on Bulaga as a rookie).

Pointing out a couple specific roster weaknesses is not a good way to judge a GM.

Except for when Aaron Rodgers split Patrick Peterson and another defender on a 61 yard frozen rope with ZERO seconds left on the clock, in the 4th quarter, down by 7, in the PLAYOFFS, on the road, huge underdogs (lost 38-8 earlier in the season to the same team), falling backwards to his LEFT with a defender right in his teeth. They had immediate pressure then. And Aaron Rodgers delivered. That's how I remember it anyway.

 

[CashInFist]

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Looks like pretty good pressure to me...

 

[Carl]

Except for when Aaron Rodgers split Patrick Peterson and another defender on a 61 yard frozen rope with ZERO seconds left on the clock, in the 4th quarter, down by 7, in the PLAYOFFS, on the road, huge underdogs (lost 38-8 earlier in the season to the same team), falling backwards to his LEFT with a defender right in his teeth. They had immediate pressure then. And Aaron Rodgers delivered. That's how I remember it anyway.

They sent the house on that play and didn't generate good pass rush for almost two entire playoff games.

Pointing out one play and saying their rush was good and ignoring the rest of time is terrible logic.

 

[CashInFist]

They sent the house on that play and didn't generate good pass rush for almost two entire playoff games.

Pointing out one play and saying their rush was good and ignoring the rest of time is terrible logic.

Ok. lol My point is Aaron Rodgers can do anything, he just needs a little help.

 

[Crockett&Tubbs]

Ok. lol My point is Aaron Rodgers can do anything, he just needs a little help.

I agree with that, except not 100%.
In the Seattle NFC Championship game, had be played well to great, that game would have been a blowout. He had a lot of help.

He missed a simple easy short TD pass to Jordy that ended in a FG instead (cost 4 points).
He threw a bad interception here where he underthrew an open Adams:

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He also made this terrible throw for a 2nd interception in the game misfiring to Cobb on a simple pass in FG range on a first & ten play where Cobb was wide open, but Rodgers misread the route Cobb was running. Cobb sat it down.

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Those 4 plays cost us at least the 10 points assuming Crosby would have made the PAT on the Nelson pass, and the 2 FG's.

I love Rodgers and feel most Packer fans are spoiled. I remember many many bad years with Whitehurst, Campbell, Wright, etc. So I know the difference, and I believe Rodgers is the best today in the NFL. But he's not been the best in the playoffs, and he deserves much more blame than McCarthy for blowing the Super Bowl last year. This game, these 3 errors, were huge, and all on him. Good pass protection, WRs were open all 3 times. Bad throws. No excuses. But everyone makes them for him now.... sometimes it is HIS fault.

I can't find a GIF of the miss on Jordy, but I have it on my phone.

 

[CashInFist]

I agree with that, except not 100%.
In the Seattle NFC Championship game, had be played well to great, that game would have been a blowout. He had a lot of help.

He missed a simple easy short TD pass to Jordy that ended in a FG instead (cost 4 points).
He threw a bad interception here where he underthrew an open Adams:

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He also made this terrible throw for a 2nd interception in the game misfiring to Cobb on a simple pass in FG range on a first & ten play where Cobb was wide open, but Rodgers misread the route Cobb was running. Cobb sat it down.

You must be logged in to see this image or video!

Those 4 plays cost us at least the 10 points assuming Crosby would have made the PAT on the Nelson pass, and the 2 FG's.

I love Rodgers and feel most Packer fans are spoiled. I remember many many bad years with Whitehurst, Campbell, Wright, etc. So I know the difference, and I believe Rodgers is the best today in the NFL. But he's not been the best in the playoffs, and he deserves much more blame than McCarthy for blowing the Super Bowl last year. This game, these 3 errors, were huge, and all on him. Good pass protection, WRs were open all 3 times. Bad throws. No excuses. But everyone makes them for him now.... sometimes it is HIS fault.

I can't find a GIF of the miss on Jordy, but I have it on my phone.

Dan Marino had a lot of missed throws too. So did Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady (cheater), and all of the rest. It's the QBs that when we we need them most, under impossible odds, that deliver consistently. Those are the ones we remember forever. That's just how it is man.