What position are you worried about?

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HardRightEdge

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You didn't address that point at all.
What in God's name do you think that last post was about? At least the 4 specific points at the top should be a basis for discussion. If you don't agree, figure out how to say so. But the fact there is not an argument to made on those points is not in question.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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What in God's name do you think that last post was about? At least the the 4 specific points at the top should be a point for discussion. If you don't agree, figure out how to say so. But the fact there is not an argument to made on those points is not in question.

I don't disagree with any of the points you made about Thompson. Once again, it doesn't address me asking for examples of former Packer excelling under a new defensive coordinator though.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I don't disagree with any of the points you made about Thompson. Once again, it doesn't address me asking for examples of former Packer excelling under a new defensive coordinator though.
I'll try once more to connect the dots, but this will be the final attempt for now:

(1) Thompson. more than most, keeps excess cap in carryover to re-sign his best players. Ergo, he has fewer free agents finding success elsewhere because, more than most GMs, he makes plans to be able to keep them. He just doesn't lose quality players with some youth left on their bones as cap casualties.

(2) Thompson, more than most GMs, prizes his home grown talent over outside free agents. More than most GMs, he'll pay top dollar for his top players if they resist the early home town discount offer. This also applies to middling players or guys with question marks, e.g., Raji and Neal, who's last contracts were more about projection than performance.

(3) Thompson keeps paying his home grown players up to, and not infrequently past, their sell-by dates. So when it comes time to say goodbye, those guys have some combination of age, injury histories and declining performance before they are let go.

(4) Teams on average replace or recycle about 20% of their roster each year. Some let their free agents with value depart over a cheaper bench vet or free agent who presents some cost/benefit advantage in the cap scheme. Thompson recycles the bottom of the roster with developmental players. So, when it comes to the question of resigning quality vets, the question "who else ya got" is answered with developmental question marks and high draft picks who are nonetheless unproven rookies, enough so to reinforce the preference for keeping his own vets with a favorable age/injury profile.

So...why do so few Packer defenders make a mark after hitting free agency?

Simple...Thompson, more than other GMs, goes to greater lengths to keep anybody who's worth a damn. Other teams take more risks, or get caught in a cap squeeze, or have a serviceable vet on the bench.

We can get into the quality of few of the recent defensive drafts. That is certainly a contributing factor in this discussion, but not an overriding one in my opinion.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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I'll try once more to connect the dots, but this will be the final attempt for now:

(1) Thompson. more than most, keeps excess cap in carryover to re-sign his best players. Ergo, he has fewer free agents finding success elsewhere because, more than most GMs, he makes plans to be able to keep them. He just doesn't lose quality players with some youth left on their bones as cap casualties.

(2) Thompson, more than most GMs, prizes his home grown talent over outside free agents. More than most GMs, he'll pay top dollar for his top players if they resist the early home town discount offer. This also applies to middling players or guys with question marks, e.g., Raji and Neal, who's last contracts were more about projection than performance.

(3) Thompson keeps paying his home grown players up to, and not infrequently past, their sell-by dates. So when it comes time to say goodbye, those guys have some combination of age, injury histories and declining performance before they are let go.

(4) Teams on average replace or recycle about 20% of their roster each year. Some let their free agents with value depart over a cheaper bench vet or free agent who presents some cost/benefit advantage in the cap scheme. Thompson recycles the bottom of the roster with developmental players. So, when it comes to the question of resigning quality vets, the question "who else ya got" is answered with developmental question marks and high draft picks who are nonetheless unproven rookies, enough so to reinforce the preference for keeping his own vets with a favorable age/injury profile.

So...why do so few Packer defenders make a mark after hitting free agency?

Simple...Thompson, more than other GMs, goes to greater lengths to keep anybody who's worth a damn. Other teams take more risks, or get caught in a cap squeeze, or have a serviceable vet on the bench.

We can get into the quality of few of the recent defensive drafts. That is certainly a contributing factor in this discussion, but not an overriding one in my opinion.

Once again, I'm mot disputing any of the points you made above.

But let's focus on Capers for a moment and take a look at the 2012 draft. Thompson made significant investments in drafting Worthy, McMillian and Terrell Manning and none of them worked out in Capers' system. If the defensive coordinator is the one to blame for that why didn't any of them make an impact with another team? Maybe, after all, TT made a mistake evaluating their talent.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Once again, I'm mot disputing any of the points you made above.

But let's focus on Capers for a moment and take a look at the 2012 draft. Thompson made significant investments in drafting Worthy, McMillian and Terrell Manning and none of them worked out in Capers' system. If the defensive coordinator is the one to blame for that why didn't any of them make an impact with another team? Maybe, after all, TT made a mistake evaluating their talent.
Yeah, there is no doubt 2012 was a very poor draft. Others have not been so hot on the defensive side of the ball. Thompson certainly shares culpability for any talent shortfall. I don't tag him with the "genius" designation many ascribe to him...I consider him as merely a top 10 GM.

I've mentioned in the past how this year's cap allocation to the defense is greater than the offense, which I'm sure many find surprising. Perhaps more surprising, the Packers have what amounts to the 3rd. highest defensive cap allocation this season according to overthecap.com, with only a couple of $100,000 separating the Packers from Arizona and Seattle in a virtual tie. The only teams spending appriciably more cap on defense this season are the Jets and the Texans. The Packers might rise in that ranking given they have no high priced players that will end up as cap casualties as the cut downs are complete, whereas those other teams might.

The draft shortfall has been compensated for with the Peppers signing and paying the core players to stay put. Matthews, Peppers, Shields and Burnett are the guys to fill in around. Guion was added; he's a decent player. Dix and Daniels are young, cheap (for now) players, decent and better than that, respectively. Neal's a decent player if a bit overcompensated. Raji was paid some dough on a bet.

There is talent here, known quantities (unless Capers confuses them with more scheme or plays them out of position), a vet group retained at some considerable expense. It's the DCs job to coach up and work in the complementary players, and more importantly fashion a coherent unit around the core.

Even if one assumes the talent on balance is mediocre, which I do not, yielding mediocre results (and troubling collapses as an added "bonus"), then what good is Capers, at considerable cost in his contract no doubt? The answer is that there is a disinclination to rock the boat, rework the formula, when the team makes the playoffs every year. Backing and filling, drafting for need, to stay on par is the order of the day. At least McCarthy sees the problem. Whether McCarthy would prefer to turn the page, it is hard to say...you can bet a decision on Capers in not his unilaterally. It would not have been him negotiating Capers contract extension. At least McCarthy is taking a closer look under the hood.

At the very least, if the problem is not the scheme or the players, the playoff collapses, and the multi-game periods where the tackling goes into hibernation speak to a cultural issue that should be addressed.
 
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HardRightEdge

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I don't get super excited by McCarthy being more involved with the defense. He has never coached any defensive position and the quad defense he introduced last year failed miserably and was scrapped after only a couple games.
I don't buy that line of argument, except the "super excited" part. Personally I don't get super excited about anything that doesn't happen on the field. ;)

McCarthy has spent years breaking down and scheming against opposing defenses, going back decades. He's studied every defense in the book and gamed planned for them. To think that experience is entirely non-transferable is not something I would accept.

It's an issue of management dynamics. First of all, his authority appears to be more of dotted line than a solid line relationship. but that's only one consideration and perhaps not the primary one. The primary issue is that getting in the hip pocket of a subordinate, telling him what to do, and micromanaging the work is just bad practice. Influence, steer, communicate culture, brainstorm, support...but he's not going to try to do the guy's job for him if he knows what he's doing. I think we can agree McCarthy is a good manager. In the end, the decisions are Capers', but that does not mean McCarthy cannot contribute to the process...if Capers' is receptive.
I remember reading an article in the Journal Sentinel last year that Thompson finally decided it's time to draft players best suited for Capers' system. I wondered why that wasn't done before and if true than Capers has been forced to play the hands he was dealt by the GM.
When he admitted it is not necessarily when it started. I think you can go back to the Perry pick, and particularly the D. Jones pick, and then the Peppers signing to see that highlighted. And how could it be otherwise, to one extent or the other, at any time? Who would draft players without attention to their fit in the scheme?

Does anybody think Thomson and the scouting high priests lock themselves up in the temple mount, casting their bones and consulting their oracles, only to emerge after months of work with a collection of players? That's not credible, even when you excise the sarcastic analogy. If anybody thinks selective college tape of players the scouting department likes is never shared with the head coach and DC in advance of the draft seems too implausible to consider.

Whether they get those players is a matter for Thompson to decide, as the draft board falls out and based on his determination of value in the pick to the overall football operation. But if he doesn't get a specific player, he'll be looking that kind of player, and the coaches input would have influence.
There's no denying these playoff performances are inexcuseable. But aside of the loss to the Niners in which Kaepernick was running wild I mostly blame the players.
Well, if they are inexcusable, why are they being excused?

With Kaepernick we saw a QB running for more yards before contact than any QB has ever run in total in a game in the history of the NFL, a league with a long history of running QBs, going back to the early years when QBs were glorified running backs who would sometimes throw the ball, with said QBs playing against dismal collections of defensive talent certainly from time to time. And we're to believe the Kaepernick problem lies with the players?!

I'll remind you that Woodson was quite animated after that game, saying no adjustments were applied at half time, an outburst that I believe was a contributing factor in his being fired, i.e., released with no offer of a reduced contract, leaving us with estimable M.D. Jennings in his stead. There's every reason to believe Woodson was telling the truth, with those comments coming from a high football intelligence to boot.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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I've mentioned in the past how this year's cap allocation to the defense is greater than the offense, which I'm sure many find surprising. Perhaps more surprising, the Packers have what amounts to the 3rd. highest defensive cap allocation this season according to overthecap.com, with only a couple of $100,000 separating the Packers from Arizona and Seattle in a virtual tie.

The Packers had the second highest defensive cap allocation of all teams last season, so Thompson has spent quite a lot of money on that side of the ball for some time now.

Even if one assumes the talent on balance is mediocre, which I do not, yielding mediocre results (and troubling collapses as an added "bonus"), then what good is Capers, at considerable cost in his contract no doubt? The answer is that there is a disinclination to rock the boat, rework the formula, when the team makes the playoffs every year. Backing and filling, drafting for need, to stay on par is the order of the day.

I think the talent level on defense is mediocre at best and has been for quite some time. The Packers defense was superb during Capers' first two seasons with the team but the front office was unable to replace Cullen Jenkins and Nick Collins (I still think a lot of people don't realize how much it hurt the defense to lose him) for several seasons and the mess at inside linebacker hasn't been addressed adequately as of now.

I really don't know if another DC would be able to achieve better results with the Packers defense but to me it's telling that none of the draft picks that underperformed in Capers' system have had success with another team (a point which you have ignored in several replies ).

McCarthy has spent years breaking down and scheming against opposing defenses, going back decades. He's studied every defense in the book and gamed planned for them. To think that experience is entirely non-transferable is not something I would accept.

That doesn't mean that McCarthy is good at designing schemes or coaching up defensive players. He was the driving force behind the installation of the quad defense and it was absolutely terrible, so forgive me if I don't expect a ton of improvement just because McCarthy shares his input on that side of the ball (BTW the same applies for special teams).

When he admitted it is not necessarily when it started. I think you can go back to the Perry pick, and particularly the D. Jones pick, and then the Peppers signing to see that highlighted. And how could it be otherwise, to one extent or the other, at any time? Who would draft players without attention to their fit in the scheme?

Does anybody think Thomson and the scouting high priests lock themselves up in the temple mount, casting their bones and consulting their oracles, only to emerge after months of work with a collection of players? That's not credible, even when you excise the sarcastic analogy. If anybody thinks selective college tape of players the scouting department likes is never shared with the head coach and DC in advance of the draft seems too implausible to consider.

Whether they get those players is a matter for Thompson to decide, as the draft board falls out and based on his determination of value in the pick to the overall football operation. But if he doesn't get a specific player, he'll be looking that kind of player, and the coaches input would have influence.

Nick Perry was a terrible pick and a complete misfit for Capers' scheme. He even made it clear to everyone listening that he wanted to play in a 4-3 defense.

I was surprised reading about Thompson finally drafting players that would fit the defensive scheme as well as I expected the GM and DC to be on the same page but obviously that wasn't the way it worked.

Well, if they are inexcusable, why are they being excused?

With Kaepernick we saw a QB running for more yards before contact than any QB has ever run in total in a game in the history of the NFL, a league with a long history of running QBs, going back to the early years when QBs were glorified running backs who would sometimes throw the ball, with said QBs playing against dismal collections of defensive talent certainly from time to time. And we're to believe the Kaepernick problem lies with the players?!

I'll remind you that Woodson was quite animated after that game, saying no adjustments were applied at half time, an outburst that I believe was a contributing factor in his being fired, i.e., released with no offer of a reduced contract, leaving us with estimable M.D. Jennings in his stead. There's every reason to believe Woodson was telling the truth, with those comments coming from a high football intelligence to boot.

Don't get me wrong, I was furious at Capers after the playoff loss to the Niners in 2012 for not preparing for the read option and would have understood him being fired at that point.

I put way more blame on the players for the other playoff breakdowns during his time as DC though.
 
H

HardRightEdge

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I really don't know if another DC would be able to achieve better results with the Packers defense but to me it's telling that none of the draft picks that underperformed in Capers' system have had success with another team (a point which you have ignored in several replies ).
I've explained it twice...I guess I have to paint a picture now.

One can argue that Thompson has had poor results drafting defensive players, but saying that none of his draftees have left to do good things with other teams in support of that argument is baseless because the preponderance of those guys were low draft picks in the numbers game.

Here are the defensive draftees since 2009, the year Capers was hired, broken out into those still on the team and those not, in draft order. I didn't bother with 2015; even if there is a surprising draftee cut, we don't yet know how he'd do elsewhere.

Still with the Team:

Raji - 2009 - 1st. round
Matthews - 2009 - 1st. round
Perry - 2012 - 1st. round
Datone Jones - 2013 - 1st. round
Dix - 1st. round
Neal - 2010 - 2nd. round
Hayward - 2012 - 2nd. round
Burnett - 2010 - 3rd. round
Thornton - 2014 - 3rd. round
Daniels - 2012 - 4th. round
Bradford - 2014 - 4th. round
Hyde - 2013 - 5th. round
Boyd - 2013 - 5th. round
Palmer - 2013 - 6th. round
Goodson- 2014 - 6th. round
Barrington - 2013 - 7th. round

No Longer With the Team:

Worthy - 2012 - 2nd. round
House - 2011 - 4th. round
McMillan- 2012 - 4th. round
Manning - 2012 - 5th. round
Wynn - 2009 - 6th. round
Underwood - 2009 - 6th. round
D.J. Smith - 2011 - 6th. round
Elmore - 2011 - 6th. round
Brad Jones - 2009 - 7th. round
Wilson - 2010 - 7th. round
Guy - 2011 - 7th. round

An examination of this list should require no explanation. But I guess it is necessary.

To repeat...again...the reason why Thompson's draftees don't move on to success on other teams is because he goes to some lengths to keep his own draftees if they are worth a damn. Is that the right thing to do? That's not the question at hand.

The corrllary to that point is exhibited in the guys who have departed. There's only one day 1 or day 2 pick in the bunch! Does somebody want to make the case that Worthy, one 2nd. round bust over 6 drafts, makes the anti-Thompson argument? They should look at other teams' 6 drafts in that study period before doing so.

There are only 2 other guys in the top 4 rounds who have departed, and we don't know how House will end up...he's on the Jacksonville depth chart as a starting cover corner.

Now, who wants to claim that any but a small number of 5th. - 7th. rounders cut or unsigned in free agency in the NFL as whole during that period have gone on to anything but underwhelming success with other teams? Good luck with that, too.

Of course, some other teams might have a good player who was drafted in those rounds that they cannot afford in free agency. That happens more often with the preponderance of NFL teams than with the Packers' single case with House over the last 7 seasons.

Got it now?
 
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Deleted member 6794

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One can argue that Thompson has had poor results drafting defensive players, but saying that none of his draftees have left to do good things with other teams is a baseless argument. I've explained why...twice. I guess I now have to illustrate it.

Here are the defensive draftees since 2009, the year Capers was hired, broken out into those still on the team and those not, in draft order. I didn't bother with 2015, since your argument was made only after a few camp body cut downs.

Still with the Team:

Raji - 2009 - 1st. round
Matthews - 2009 - 1st. round
Perry - 2012 - 1st. round
Datone Jones - 2013 - 1st. round
Dix - 1st. round
Neal - 2010 - 2nd. round
Hayward - 2012 - 2nd. round
Burnett - 2010 - 3rd. round
Thornton - 2014 - 3rd. round
Daniels - 2012 - 4th. round
Bradford - 2014 - 4th. round
Hyde - 2013 - 5th. round
Boyd - 2013 - 5th. round
Palmer - 2013 - 6th. round
Goodson- 2014 - 6th. round
Barrington - 2013 - 7th. round

No Longer With the Team:

Worthy - 2012 - 2nd. round
House - 2011 - 4th. round
McMillan- 2012 - 4th. round
Manning - 2012 - 5th. round
Wynn - 2009 - 6th. round
Underwood - 2009 - 6th. round
D.J. Smith - 2011 - 6th. round
Elmore - 2011 - 6th. round
Brad Jones - 2009 - 7th. round
Wilson - 2010 - 7th. round
Guy - 2011 - 7th. round

An examination of this list should require no explanation. But I guess it is necessary.

To repeat...again...the reason why Thompson's draftees don't move on to success on other teams is because he goes to some lengths to keep his own draftees if they are worth a damn. Is that the right thing to do? That's not the question at hand.

The corralary to to that point is exhibited in the guys who have departed. There's only one day 1 or day 2 pick in the bunch! Does somebody want to make the case that Worthy, one 2nd. round bust over 6 drafts, makes the anti-Thompson argument? They should look at other teams' last 6 drafts before doing so.

There are only 2 other guys in the top 4 rounds who have departed, and we don't know how House will end up...he's on the Jacksonville depth chart as a starting cover corner.

So...who wants to claim that 5th. - 7th. rounders cut or unsigned in free agency in the NFL during that period have gone on to anything but uncommon success with other teams? Good luck with that, too. Of course, some other teams might have a good player who was drafted in those rounds that cannot afford in free agency. And of course that happens more often with most teams than with the Packers' single case with House.

For this discussion it doesn't matter which round the players who left the Packers were drafted in. You mentioned correctly that a defensive coordinator's job is to coach up players and believe there are a ton of better ones than Capers in the NFL. If that's true why has no other coordinator been able to get something out of at least a single former Packer Capers wasn't able to???
 

DaveRoller

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Extremely cogent points HardRight, I think you "won" the argument that TT's drafting alone has not been the principal cause of GB's recent defensive woes.

In Wimm's defense, however, don't you think that your (absolutely correct in my mind) points above that (1) "Thompson, more than most GMs, prizes his home grown talent over outside free agents" and (2) "Thompson keeps paying his home grown players up to, and not infrequently past, their sell-by dates" has not saddled Capers with some pretty objectively awful players the past couple of years?

I mean, the combinations of M.D. Jennings/Jerron McMillian (at Safety)in 2013 & A.J. Hawk/Brad Jones (inside linebacker) in 2014 would be hard for even "hoodie" on his best day to overcome.

I have no real dog in the hunt as I believe both Dom (and his "schemes") & TT (and his over-reliance on home grown "talent)" are culpable. I also agree that pitiful performances have been all too frequently excused.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Nick Perry was a terrible pick and a complete misfit for Capers' scheme. He even made it clear to everyone listening that he wanted to play in a 4-3 defense.
I made this point leading up to the draft, and going away from it. While he said it, we should also look at what he did. I have made the point on several occasions that he jacked himself up to 270 lbs. for the Combine and posted 35 bench reps on the process. No doubt he had 4-3 DE written all over him. But that's not a point in arguing that Thompson believed he was buying a fit for the defense. Perry's combine measurables still indicated a guy who could play OLB. We were not in the room for the interview; Perry may have feigned enthusiasm.

I believe Perry was a bad fit; you believe he was bad fit; that doesn't mean Thompson didn't think he'd be right up Capers' alley.

Further, it was not until prior to the 2012 draft that Capers declared he wanted more length. I don't recall him making that statement previously, even if it's been the desired prototype for 3-4 DEs in the NFL for quite some time. So, Thompson drafted Jones, the closest thing available to the lengthy profile. Subsequently Thompson went and got him Peppers...you don't get more length than that.

Ironically, Thompson also provided Daniels, contrary to Capers preferred length requirement, and he's turned out to be the best D-Lineman the Packers have. Maybe Capers wants to throw him back in the pond because he's short and stumpy?

Don't you find it all curious that Thompson drafted well on defense, and was the top scout in advance of that, leading up to the loaded Super Bowl season defense? And once on top, the results have been less satisfying? While at the same time Capers has a history of early success in new jobs and then trailing off?

Yeah...I think another guy can do better with this talent.
 
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Mondio

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Extremely cogent points HardRight, I think you "won" the argument that TT's drafting alone has not been the principal cause of GB's recent defensive woes.

In Wimm's defense, however, don't you think that your (absolutely correct in my mind) points above that (1) "Thompson, more than most GMs, prizes his home grown talent over outside free agents" and (2) "Thompson keeps paying his home grown players up to, and not infrequently past, their sell-by dates" has not saddled Capers with some pretty objectively awful players the past couple of years?

I mean, the combinations of M.D. Jennings/Jerron McMillian (at Safety)in 2013 & A.J. Hawk/Brad Jones (inside linebacker) in 2014 would be hard for even "hoodie" on his best day to overcome.

I have no real dog in the hunt as I believe both Dom (and his "schemes") & TT (and his over-reliance on home grown "talent)" are culpable. I also agree that pitiful performances have been all too frequently excused.
your only dog is to take a shot at TT, MM or DC whenever possible and as often as you can. No dog in the hunt, pfftttt.

and don't forget Ha-ha, Burnett and Collins he has chosen at safety, but you're right, he obviously a horrible judge of talent.

These arguments get a bit tiresome. Seriously, Ted Thompson is better than most at his job. He's not perfect and has missed on a few people, well no ****, so have a lot of very successful GM's in every major sports league in the world. He also has to deal with things far outside his control, like a career ending neck injury to a promising WR, and career enders to a pro bowl and most likely on his way to HOF safety, and a very talented TE. all career enders in the primes of their careers.

and people that don't think MM can coach??? not sure I want to be dumbed down to the argument. Or Dom Capers? Please. He's not perfect again, yet he highly regarded by all his peers, the guys that do more than sit on a computer and talk about football. He's not perfect either some from his control and others not.

barring major injury to someone like Matthews or Peppers for a long period of time, I suspect our D will be around 12 or better this year and still people will be talking like he sucks

There are so many reasons and parts responsible for not being 10-0 in superbowls in recent history, hardly any of which are because MM sucks, TT sucks or because Dom Capers sucks.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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Don't you find it all curious that Thompson drafted well on defense, and was the top scout in advance of that, leading up to the loaded Super Bowl season defense? An once on top, the results have been less satisfying?

Don't you find it all curious that Capers coached well enough for the Packers defense to be one of the top units during his first two seasons? And once on top he forgot how to effectively scheme a 3-4 defense?

While at the same time Capers has a history of early success in new jobs and then trailing off?

Capers never worked for more than three seasons as a defensive coordinator in the NFL and the Steelers finished 2nd, 8th and 2nd in points allowed during that stretch. While it's true his defense took a step backwards in Jacksonville during his second seasons (from 1st to 16th) and he coordinated a terrible defense during his lone season as the DC in Miami it's hardly a pattern.

If you want to include his stints as head coach as evidence you have to realize that Vic Fangio (one of the most respected DCs as of now after his tome with the Niners) was his DC for every single season. I'm quite sure you would include him in the category of way better DC than Capers for some reason though.
 
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HardRightEdge

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In Wimm's defense, however, don't you think that your (absolutely correct in my mind) points above that (1) "Thompson, more than most GMs, prizes his home grown talent over outside free agents" and (2) "Thompson keeps paying his home grown players up to, and not infrequently past, their sell-by dates" has not saddled Capers with some pretty objectively awful players the past couple of years?

I mean, the combinations of M.D. Jennings/Jerron McMillian (at Safety) in 2013 & A.J. Hawk/Brad Jones (inside linebacker) in 2014 would be hard for even "hoodie" on his best day to overcome.

I have no real dog in the hunt as I believe both Dom (and his "schemes") & TT (and his over-reliance on home grown "talent)" are culpable. I also agree that pitiful performances have been all too frequently excused.
Of course. "Cogently put", right back at you.

The all-defense 2012 draft would be a unmitigated disaster were it not for Daniels; even with Daniels I think we could characterize it as "quite bad", with McMillian in that group by the way. I did not like the Perry pick. Further, I did not like the Datone Jones pick. And for the record I did not like the Randall pick and still don't, unless he's going to play free safety which he isn't. I'm a lot more critical of Thompson than your average Packer loyalist who at the same time endorsed his parting with Favre.

Jennings, McMillian...it could have been Woodson at a reduced rate, a guy who actually made the Pro Bowl last season at safety, even if it was not entirely deserved. So...who got p*ssed and wanted him gone after he complained in the press about Capers failing to make adjustments during Kaepernick's romp-athon? Was that Thompson or Capers? Or was it Thompson backing his DC? If Capers said, "I can't use him anymore", do you think Thompson would have made him an offer anyway?

The way I see it, Woodson was dead right...and that should have been the handwriting on the wall.

I never liked Jones, even in the year PFF rated him the #8 ILB or whatever it was. Hawk? Yeah...past the sell-by date, clearly, going back quite a ways. I never liked the fact he stunk up the joint in 2011 after getting a nice contract after 2010, his best year. The thing with these guys is they carried some meaningful dead cap going into 2014; I doubt anybody was thrilled at the prospect, but they were going to cost cap dollars whether they were on the roster or not. There was some nose holding in the football organization, I'm sure, over the ILB situation, with some hope-and-pray in light of the cap situation.

Be that as it may, while the Captain noted the NASCAR failure as perhaps a McCarthy misstep, it was largely dropped fairly quickly. Credit goes to whoever decided not to beat a dead horse. On the other hand, it is my understanding that moving Matthews to the inside and bringing in Barrington off the bench was McCarthy's idea. On balance, that's a pretty good record in interfering with the defensive guru. Will Matthews in the middle work again? I doubt it...I'll be interested to see if we get some glimpse into who makes the call to kill it and how quickly.

And heck...I didn't even mention in any of the prior posts Eli Manning's spanking this defense in the first round in 2011. That was a season where the D gave up an NFL record 20+ yard passes, and Jennings and McMillian were not on the field. Ah, but the defense picked off 31 balls in "The Year of Living Dangerously" resulting in an 80 passer rating against...and we're supposed to call that good.

As it stands, there's a core of decent defensive players, several better than that, and a few quite serviceable rotational guys. Are they overpaid in the cap-for-performace quotient ? Yes. But that's not the issue for 2015. I don't expect a top 10 defense...I expect them not to go into tackling hybernation for games at a time and I expect them not to collapse in the playoffs. A mediocre DC should be able to handle these modest requests.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Don't you find it all curious that Capers coached well enough for the Packers defense to be one of the top units during his first two seasons? And once on top he forgot how to effectively scheme a 3-4 defense?
No...because he's done that before.
 

DaveRoller

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Don't know if it was "cogent" or not, but your post above pretty well summarizes the defensive woes of the past 4 seasons HardRight.

My only quibble is that with 7 first round picks, 3 second rounders, and the only 2 noteworthy veteran free agent signings on this year's defense I do expect a top 10 finish.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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No...because he's done that before.

Once again, Capers never worked longer than three years as a defensive coordinator for a team before joining the Packers and the Steelers finished in second in points allowed during his final season there.
 
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HardRightEdge

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Once again, Capers never worked longer than three years as a defensive coordinator for a team before joining the Packers and the Steelers finished in second in points allowed during his final season there.
How about his head coaching record? Check that out.
 
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Deleted member 6794

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Be that as it may, while the Captain noted the NASCAR failure as perhaps a McCarthy misstep, it was largely dropped fairly quickly. Credit goes to whoever decided not to beat a dead horse.

The quad defense featured two defensive linemen playing at tackle with two outside linebackers playing defensive end in a 4-3 look. This alignment was scrapped after only a few games.

The NASCAR package was used in dime and didn't feature a single DL.

As it stands, there's a core of decent defensive players, several better than that, and a few quite serviceable rotational guys. Are they overpaid in the cap-for-performace quotient ? Yes. But that's not the issue for 2015. I don't expect a top 10 defense...I expect them not to go into tackling hybernation for games at a time and I expect them not to collapse in the playoffs. A mediocre DC should be able to handle these modest requests.

Capers is a well respected defensive coordinator and for sure way better than a mediocre one. You should start thinking about putting some blame on the guys actually messing up on the field and the end of the NFCCG is a prime example for it.
 
D

Deleted member 6794

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How about his head coaching record? Check that out.

He coached two expansion teams during the first four seasons of their existence. Nobody should be surprised by his underwhelming record.

BTW what's your take on Vic Fangio???
 
H

HardRightEdge

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Don't know if it was "cogent" or not, but your post above pretty well summarizes the defensive woes of the past 4 seasons HardRight.

My only quibble is that with 7 first round picks, 3 second rounders, and the only 2 noteworthy veteran free agent signings on this year's defense I do expect a top 10 finish.
It is what it is.

I forgot to replay to your Hoodie comment earlier...that even he could not overcome a Jennings liability.

He's had Pat Chung at safety for several years now, and that guy is a liability in coverage. He will hit you though, so he's got that going for him.
 
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HardRightEdge

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For this discussion it doesn't matter which round the players who left the Packers were drafted in. You mentioned correctly that a defensive coordinator's job is to coach up players and believe there are a ton of better ones than Capers in the NFL. If that's true why has no other coordinator been able to get something out of at least a single former Packer Capers wasn't able to???
Really? I'll just stand on what I've already said, thank you.
 
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HardRightEdge

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He coached two expansion teams during the first four seasons of their existence. Nobody should be surprised by his underwhelming record.

BTW what's your take on Vic Fangio???
Capers starts well, then trails off. Complacency I guess, or maybe the excitement of new opportunities, new frontiers, trails off into a grind. I have no opinion on Fangio at the moment.
 
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HardRightEdge

Guest
Capers is a well respected defensive coordinator and for sure way better than a mediocre one. You should start thinking about putting some blame on the guys actually messing up on the field and the end of the NFCCG is a prime example for it.
Thompson is a well respected GM and for sure is regarded as way better than a mediocre draft-and-develop guy.

So what...that and $3 will get you a cup of burnt Starbucks. I can't believe much of what the so called professional analyst say

The playoffs have been a defensive trail of tears since 2010. Throw in 2009 for good measure.

I do have one thing going for me...I wrote off Capers finally and forever early last season before the NFCCG...that game was just the straw beyond the last straw.
 
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