What do we need to have a great season?

[Deleted member 6794]

sure he could be...but that's doing his actual job. kamikaze PR guy isn't why he was drafted. your original statement said JA is the best returner but davis is a better option. why is that? there's only one reason.

First of all I never mentioned that Alexander is the best option on punt returns. At this point there's no doubt Davis is.

Once again, if Jaire would present the most dynamic player to fill the role there wouldn't be any reason to be scared to use him in that one though.

The original statement was not one or the other. It was all of them

So again, yes, Rodgers with Allison makes a difference on this team. We're talking about a safety net for Rodgers that averaged 72 ypg pre-injury. You don't think that makes a difference over the year?! Him being out there means a rookie that doesn't know the playbook isn't on the field. That's big.

Same thing with Kevin King. He's a solid starting CB. Him being on the field means that Josh Jackson, or Tony Brown, isn't. For last year, that makes a difference on how well a defense plays, and what a defense is able to do. When you're playing guys who aren't as good/capable/knowledgeable, it limits what plays you're able to run. Those things matter over the course of a year.

Once again, I don't believe the Packers would have won more games if Allison and/or King would have stayed healthy.

Rodgers being at 100% would have made a huge difference even with those two players out.

Good points. It might also help if they’d share with him what his role is expected to be (yeah, IT’S EARLY).

Jones would have competed for the primary backup job at safety. There was no need to further specify his role entering this season at this point.

 

[Mondio]

there are more than a couple teams that use a fairly high profile player as a punt return man

 

[GleefulGary]

there are more than a couple teams that use a fairly high profile player as a punt return man

Pats and Edelman for example.

 

[gbgary]

First of all I never mentioned that Alexander is the best option on punt returns. At this point there's no doubt Davis is.

Once again, if Jaire would present the most dynamic player to fill the role there wouldn't be any reason to be scared to use him in that one though.

you're right. i misread your post but again...my point still stands...even if he was the best option, and he very well may be, it would be irresponsible to use him there considering his MUCH MORE important role in the defense, safety, for which he was drafted, and a position they've agonized over for almost 10 years.

 

[gbgary]

Pats and Edelman for example.

but you know the pats don't value the wr position. they've been plugging guys in at wr for years and it always works for them. the Packers haven't been that lucky at safety...or any position for that matter.

 

[HardRightEdge]

What do we need to have a "great season"? A Super Bowl win qualifies, however it is accomplished.

I don't expect that. I would hope for a "good season" which would be building a foundation of scheme and players to be in legitimate contension in 2020.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

you're right. i misread your post but again...my point still stands...even if he was the best option, and he very well may be, it would be irresponsible to use him there considering his MUCH MORE important role in the defense, safety, for which he was drafted, and a position they've agonized over for almost 10 years.

Playing scared is not a great way to be successful. Put your best players out there on every snap that counts.

but you know the pats don't value the wr position. they've been plugging guys in at wr for years and it always works for them. the Packers haven't been that lucky at safety...or any position for that matter.

Alexander is a cornerback.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

Playing scared is not a great way to be successful. Put your best players out there on every snap that counts.

I totally agree with this and from what I remember when this discussion of "who should return punts" was talked about a year or so ago, there wasn't much convincing evidence that punt returners suffer an unusual amount of injuries. If Alexander intercepts a deep pass and returns it, in a sense he has become a punt returner. Increasing the number of snaps for any player, is obviously going to create a higher exposure to injury, but look at all the DB's we have lost over the years to injuries while they were playing defense.

Two reasons I think that teams may not choose to use a starter in the role is the time element as well as fatigue. Special teams requires practice time and if your trying to use a starter on special teams, is he always going to be available to work with the ST during practices? That's asking a lot out of a guy who just spent time running through plays with the first unit of offense or defense. During a game, asking a defensive guy like Alexander to return punts is running the risk that he was just on the field running up and down for a number of plays and is probably winded. Putting him VS a fresh body out there to return a punt, might be the better option.

 

[gbgary]

Playing scared is not a great way to be successful. Put your best players out there on every snap that counts.

but being smart is.

Alexander is a cornerback.

yes i know...and you know i know.

 

[gbgary]

I totally agree with this and from what I remember when this discussion of "who should return punts" was talked about a year or so ago, there wasn't much convincing evidence that punt returners suffer an unusual amount of injuries. If Alexander intercepts...
Two reasons I think that teams may not choose to use a starter in the role is the time element as well as fatigue. Special teams requires practice time and if your trying to use a starter on special teams, is he always going to be available to work with the ST during practices? That's asking a lot out of a guy who just spent time running through plays with the first unit of offense or defense. During a game, asking a defensive guy like Alexander to return punts is running the risk that he was just on the field running up and down for a number of plays and is probably winded. Putting him VS a fresh body out there to return a punt, might be the better option.

maybe not...it's just the additional exposure to high speed impacts. remember cobb suffered a knee injury his first or second year doing this.

second paragraph is spot on. it's just the smart thing to do. returning punts/kicks is all devin hester could do. he wasn't drafted to be a cornerstone defensive player. alexander importance at cb, being on the field for every defensive snap, far outweighs a half dozen touches at punt returner.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

but being smart is.

It's not smart to keep your best players out of plays because of being scared of any of them getting injured though.

maybe not...it's just the additional exposure to high speed impacts. remember cobb suffered a knee injury his first or second year doing this.

Cobb missed a total of 16 games during his first seven seasons with the Packers because of injury, 10 after being hurt on that play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000261463/Cobb-injured-on-15-yard-gain

Do you want Rodgers to not throw to that part of the field because of it as well???

 

[Mondio]

but you know the pats don't value the wr position. they've been plugging guys in at wr for years and it always works for them. the Packers haven't been that lucky at safety...or any position for that matter.

They may have been plugging guys in, but they've had 2 guys in the past decade that have carried that team at the WR position for much of that time, Wes Welker and Julian Edelman. Both their most consistent WR's and both used as punt return men, especially in big games. Coincidence? and before that didn't brown become one of their primary WR's while being one of their best DB's and was also a PR?

 

[Deleted member 6794]

They may have been plugging guys in, but they've had 2 guys in the past decade that have carried that team at the WR position for much of that time, Wes Welker and Julian Edelman. Both their most consistent WR's and both used as punt return men, especially in big games. Coincidence? and before that didn't brown become one of their primary WR's while being one of their best DB's and was also a PR?

True. Edelman, Welker, Brown, Amendola and Faulk are the top five in punt returns attempts for the Patriots since 2001.

 

[scotscheese]

It's not smart to keep your best players out of plays because of being scared of any of them getting injured though.



Cobb missed a total of 16 games during his first seven seasons with the Packers because of injury, 10 after being hurt on that play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000261463/Cobb-injured-on-15-yard-gain

Do you want Rodgers to not throw to that part of the field because of it as well???

so if aaron rodgers was the best return guy on the team, would you still use him to return punts/kicks? of course not. a player getting injured in the role he was signed to is a risk that all coaches/players are taking every week. but imo, most coaches aren't going to put one of their best at a position in for returns, especially if the backup/depth isn't the best either. it is an unnecessary risk

 

[Mondio]

I look at teams in the post season and they’re always using big time players as punt return men. Especially if it’s between them or someone that can’t hack it. The Saints used Kamara in that role too. I think we used Antonio Freeman at one point when he was practically our only WR. Good teams and coaches use important players all the time if it means putting someone good out there for returns or someone that doesn’t offer much.

I don’t equate QBs as anything but QBs. The position is so unlike any other on the field I don’t think it is comparable.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

so if aaron rodgers was the best return guy on the team, would you still use him to return punts/kicks? of course not. a player getting injured in the role he was signed to is a risk that all coaches/players are taking every week. but imo, most coaches aren't going to put one of their best at a position in for returns, especially if the backup/depth isn't the best either. it is an unnecessary risk

Only if he returned every one for a TD AND we had a decent backup QB.

You obviously chose a very extreme example to try and prove a point, so fair enough. It all comes down to risk-reward formula. Very few teams are going to risk a premium starter, if the reward of doing so doesn't greatly outweigh the risk AND no other player can come close to matching the same results of that player returning the ball, as well as starting reps. This is why you see teams more willing to roll the dice with a premier player during the playoffs and risk allowing someone that could potentially break one to return punts/kicks in a very important game.

Instead of going through the list of 90 players, I would throw in my 2 cents on what I would ideally look for in a return guy. Find a guy that is a quality backup on offense or defense and is a quality return guy as well. Trevor Davis is pretty good at punt returns and as a gunner, but has shown very little at WR. If Jake Kumerow proved he could produce similar or even a few yards less/return results as Davis, I would give the job to Kumerow, because I think he is a better backup WR.

All that said, if one of your starters was over the top better than any other guy on the team at returning punts, I would probably use him in the role and roll the dice his production exceeds the risk of him possibly getting hurt.

Do the Packers have a guy on the team like that? Not sure yet and who knows, Davis could step up at WR and cement his spot as the return guy and #4 or #5 WR.

 

[gbgary]

It's not smart to keep your best players out of plays because of being scared of any of them getting injured though.

it is when what they're doing isn't their normal job. returning punts isn't his job. it wasn't what he was drafted for. it's a totally unnecessary exposure.

Cobb missed a total of 16 games during his first seven seasons with the Packers because of injury, 10 after being hurt on that play.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000261463/Cobb-injured-on-15-yard-gain

not talking about that play. he got hurt once returning punts (knee, ankle...i don't remember). he dodged that bullet and didn't miss any games. they took him off full-time pr duty after that...because they smartened up.

After those two seasons, the coaching staff decided to give the job to others so that Randal Cobb could concentrate on being a receiver and staying away from the potential for injury.

https://totalpackers.com/2012/12/aaron-rodgers-wants-randall-cobb-off-returns-buffoon-does-not/

Do you want Rodgers to not throw to that part of the field because of it as well???

rodgers can throw it where he wants...but i don't want rodgers returning punts. lol

 

[Mondio]

it is when what they're doing isn't their normal job. returning punts isn't his job. it wasn't what he was drafted for. it's a totally unnecessary exposure.


not talking about that play. he got hurt once returning punts (knee, ankle...i don't remember). he dodged that bullet and didn't miss any games. they took him off pr duty after that...because they smartened up.



https://totalpackers.com/2012/12/aaron-rodgers-wants-randall-cobb-off-returns-buffoon-does-not/


rodgers can throw it where he wants...but i don't want rodgers returning punts. lol

you think a source that uses "buffoon" to refer to a head coach is legitimate in anyway?

Bellichik used Welker, Brown, Amendola, Edelman as his return men for a lot of years. Would this joker call him a buffoon too?

Last year saw guys like Tyreek Hill, Tyler Lockett, Alvin Kamara getting a lot of nods at the PR position as well. All buffoons for Head coaches?

 

[gbgary]

you think a source that uses "buffoon" to refer to a head coach is legitimate in anyway?

Bellichik used Welker, Brown, Amendola, Edelman as his return men for a lot of years. Would this joker call him a buffoon too?

Last year saw guys like Tyreek Hill, Tyler Lockett, Alvin Kamara getting a lot of nods at the PR position as well. All buffoons for Head coaches?

no, i used that article to show he was injured returning a punt. it was a hot topic back then as the rodgers comments attest. they soon changed their idiotic policy. other teams doing stupid things isn't my concern.

 

[Mondio]

3 out the 4 teams in the conference championship games just last year regularly use primary stars at their positions for punt returns. Idiotic policy? Or smart coaching and doing what’s necessary?

Cobb hurt himself playing WR too much, maybe he would have been a more effective PR?

I might not want my star WR playing gunner unless a game is on the line, but a skill player put in a position with the ball in his hands a few times a game? Heck yeah, especially when the next guy behind him sucks.

 

[scotscheese]

Only if he returned every one for a TD AND we had a decent backup QB.

You obviously chose a very extreme example to try and prove a point, so fair enough. It all comes down to risk-reward formula. Very few teams are going to risk a premium starter, if the reward of doing so doesn't greatly outweigh the risk AND no other player can come close to matching the same results of that player returning the ball, as well as starting reps. This is why you see teams more willing to roll the dice with a premier player during the playoffs and risk allowing someone that could potentially break one to return punts/kicks in a very important game.

Instead of going through the list of 90 players, I would throw in my 2 cents on what I would ideally look for in a return guy. Find a guy that is a quality backup on offense or defense and is a quality return guy as well. Trevor Davis is pretty good at punt returns and as a gunner, but has shown very little at WR. If Jake Kumerow proved he could produce similar or even a few yards less/return results as Davis, I would give the job to Kumerow, because I think he is a better backup WR.

All that said, if one of your starters was over the top better than any other guy on the team at returning punts, I would probably use him in the role and roll the dice his production exceeds the risk of him possibly getting hurt.

Do the Packers have a guy on the team like that? Not sure yet and who knows, Davis could step up at WR and cement his spot as the return guy and #4 or #5 WR.

yeah, i would say the risk/reward factor is the biggest thing when it comes to using a starter for returns, if Jaire was used and got injured, i don't think we have enough depth, or at least of a general quality. if one of our backups at CB showed that he might do a job returningm i'd be fine giving him a shot at it

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

yeah, i would say the risk/reward factor is the biggest thing when it comes to using a starter for returns, if Jaire was used and got injured, i don't think we have enough depth, or at least of a general quality. if one of our backups at CB showed that he might do a job returningm i'd be fine giving him a shot at it

Agreed, unless Jaire was an absolute beast at returning punts, then I would take the risk. If Josh Jackson, MVS, Dexter Williams, showed promise returning punts, I wouldn't hesitate to line them up, since all should be on the final 53 for what they do at their perspective position.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

so if aaron rodgers was the best return guy on the team, would you still use him to return punts/kicks? of course not. a player getting injured in the role he was signed to is a risk that all coaches/players are taking every week. but imo, most coaches aren't going to put one of their best at a position in for returns, especially if the backup/depth isn't the best either. it is an unnecessary risk

Once again, Bill Belichick of all coaches has used core players on offense on punt returns more often than any other player but yet the Packers should be scared to use their best returner???

it is when what they're doing isn't their normal job. returning punts isn't his job. it wasn't what he was drafted for. it's a totally unnecessary exposure.

Does that mean you don't want the coaches to use players at positions they weren't originally drafted for at all???

not talking about that play. he got hurt once returning punts (knee, ankle...i don't remember). he dodged that bullet and didn't miss any games. they took him off pr duty after that...because they smartened up.

I don't care if you were talking about that play as it was the one responsible for Cobb being sidelined for a total of 10 games. He never missed a single one after being injured on a punt return.

Injuries are part of the game, being scared of them isn't a smart way for coaches to approach it though.

no, i used that article to show he was injured returning a punt.

Cobb was injured catching a pass, want the Packers to not use their best receivers because of it???

yeah, i would say the risk/reward factor is the biggest thing when it comes to using a starter for returns, if Jaire was used and got injured, i don't think we have enough depth, or at least of a general quality. if one of our backups at CB showed that he might do a job returningm i'd be fine giving him a shot at it

The Packers should use their best options on returns, no matter what. Luckily, it's a moot point talking about Alexander in that regard as there is definitely a better one available in Davis.

 

[gbgary]

Does that mean you don't want the coaches to use players at positions they weren't originally drafted for at all???

ugh...smh. not the key guys. the stars. asking key guys, who are basically irreplaceable and you're hanging so much on them for the success of the team, to do other things that put them at increased risk, is irresponsible.

Cobb was injured catching a pass, want the Packers to not use their best receivers because of it???

it was a punt. read the article. and no...obviously not. you're having trouble following along. oh...and he did miss the following game btw (min, dec 30, a loss).

 

[gopkrs]

I was of the opinion that Cobb ran very recklessly. And so I thought he should not be used on punt returns even though he did it well. Risk vs reward. I have not thought that Jaire did it exceptionally well. But he did not return punts often.