Clay's Jock Strap
TRK's Hero
okay, pal.I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree buddy.
okay, pal.I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree buddy.
okay, pal.
I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.How much of the D had to do with the "best SB rating", "third best postseason rating" or the "3 time SB MVP"???
I Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.
I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.
Not to mention Raptorman is citing 1 of his SBs. He had 4 of them, and in each he had an amazing game.Be he made them - again and again and again.
Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.
So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...
Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.
Be he made them - again and again and again.
Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.
So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...
Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.
I just can't see any top 5 without a guy that was 9 times all pro, 1 time MVP, and most importantly, won 7 championships in 10 years. I would put Graham in there.
I also disagree with Alex Talisch of Packerslounge.com, that you can only argue about a player you have seen. That way in 50 years you'd have to automatically exclude Starr out of the best of all time consideration, because none alive would've seen him.
There's enough statistics and video evidence to make a case for almost anyone that played the game.
This was going on about Marino and Montana. My point was and is that Montana had good stats, and was a good QB, but that he also had good defense's when he took the Niners to the Super Bowls. No one can deny that. He did not do it on his own. The question comes in, could he have done it with a defense that was not in the top 10? Marino never had that option. Marino never had the defense's that Montana had. And I say, if you put Marino on the Niners during that time period, he comes out with 4 Super Bowls as well. That is not taking anything away from Montana.Not to mention Raptorman is citing 1 of his SBs. He had 4 of them, and in each he had an amazing game.
We all agree that with a mediocre team, he wouldn't have gotten 4 SBs.
But without him, they don't win any of those. (Don't give me the Young argument, because Young is also a HOF QB.)
4 SBs, with the way he played, no, that's not the defense.
I don't think any person alive could give you a rational argument for why Graham doesn't belong in the top 5 other than to say that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and as time goes on the list will get so long that top 5 will no longer cut it. If they are still playing NFL football 100 years from now it will likely need to be a top 20 because so many would be so great and so hard to pick from.I just can't see any top 5 without a guy that was 9 times all pro, 1 time MVP, and most importantly, won 7 championships in 10 years. I would put Graham in there.
I also disagree with Alex Talisch of Packerslounge.com, that you can only argue about a player you have seen. That way in 50 years you'd have to automatically exclude Starr out of the best of all time consideration, because none alive would've seen him.
There's enough statistics and video evidence to make a case for almost anyone that played the game.
But that's the thing. Cecil had a lot of sucess interchanging Herber. But they don't have great stats, no great personal awards.Arnie Herber! Green Bay native......
Herber and Cecil Isbell to Don Hudson. Great throwing duo who changed the game.
BTW, Starr, Favre, Herber, ****ey and Rodgers already has surpassed Majik Man in my concept).
"I would turn in all three Super Bowl rings and my Hall of Fame bust for one free taco" Michael IrvinNo way... The Majik Man won me 5 free tacos for that win versus NO in the home opener in 1989 (35-34 win with 1 free taco for each packer TD)... For that I will always be in his debt and therefore in his pocket!
Majik will ALWAYS be the best Packer QB...
Now, if any of the others want to give me 6 free tacos then we can talk...
:jester:
But that's the thing. Cecil had a lot of sucess interchanging Herber. But they don't have great stats, no great personal awards.
I think this was more in favor of Don Hudson than of the two.
But IMHO Herber is the 3rd best Packer qb of all time. Did you see that vid of him breaking that glass? Awesome.
(BTW, Starr, Favre, Herber, ****ey and Rodgers already has surpassed Majik Man in my concept).
I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.
Jesus H., Brett Favre had more TD's this year than Montana's last FOUR years. The two are not even close - Favre is in a completely different league above and beyond Montana.
I suppose you feel the same way about Adrian Peterson and Jim Brown too right? Favre is an all time great QB but only will enter into the "best" ever category among his worshipers. Top 10, yeah. Best ever, no way. Horrible post season record, too many season ending poor decisions and way too many INTs.
I'll give you favre lovers one thing though - you are persistant as hell.