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Were are the Manning haters?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by angryguy77, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    okay, pal.
     
  2. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Couldn't agree with you more about Bart Starr though. Greatest post-season quarterback of all time. Greatest Packer qb of all time, which is saying a lot when you consider the history of our team. Most importantly, he was loyal....he never would have gone to play for the Vikings or Bears.
     
  3. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    98% of the picks are bad throws. I'm excluding the ones that hit the wr, that are catchable balls, and then the wr let's it go up in the air and some defender picks it.

    In Manning's throw, the slot receiver was a much better option than the wide. Also, Porter was clearly baiting him to throw there; If he'd at least looked where he was throwing to, he would've seen that, and not have thrown to him. Yeah, yeah, easier said than done.

    But there wasn't much Manning could've done, besides throwing to the slot receiver. It was 3rd and 5, they were behind, in their field, with Brees playing lights out, little time...

    Different from Favre. If he throws the ball away, the still got a chance to win. If he runs (though I don't think the run was a really good option) or if he passes to Shiancoe...

    PS.: Rewatching the play, Manning had better protection than he thought (Mannings OL is THE best in the league in pass pro. It's not him throwing the ball fast, it's them protecting. Go and watch the tape). And Sharper bit the in route of the slot, but wasn't covering him. A pump fake, or at least holding the ball a little more, and Clark had beaten his man, and was wide open for the TD.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-playbook/09000d5d8164eafe/SB-XLIV-Playbook-Porter-s-pick

    2 mins into the vid and you'll probably see it too.
     
  4. Jess

    Jess Movement!

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    A pump fake at Wayne and Porter jumps the route, allowing Wayne to see that and break deep for the easiest touchdown of his career.
     
  5. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    I would say that by having 4 turnovers and making Denver have 3 and outs, putting the ball back in Montana's hands had a lot to do with his ability to to have 5td passes. Don't get me wrong, I think he was a good QB. But when you look at how well a QB does in games like that you have to look at what allowed him to do it in the first place. Figure two of his TD's came after interceptions in Denver's territory, one at the 28 resulting in a 28 yard td pass and another on the 37 resulting in a 35 yards td two plays later. 3 of his TD's came as a result of Denver turnovers. Granted, he had to make the plays, but without the turnovers he would have never had the chance.
     
  6. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Be he made them - again and again and again.

    Listen, I'm not saying he was the best QB ever but he was certainly in that elite group for legitimate discussion of best ever. No amount of trying to spin away his accomplishments can ever change that. I'd put him in my top 5. Again, I don't know if it is even possible to determine the best ever at any position. It is simply too difficult to sort through all of the variables like how good the supporting cast was, eras and changes to/evolution of the game (artificial via rules changes vs natural evolution) and simple personal preference. There is no magic formula to plug into that will spit out a definitive answer. But people who want to make an argument for Montana at the top have a real strong case. He's not my choice but again, it all opinion (hopefully backed up by a lot of facts) and I'd have a really hard time not having him in my all time top 5.

    So many great ones though... Unitas, Montana, Starr, Elway, Favre, Graham, Marino, Bradshaw, Manning, Brady, Young...

    Personally, my top 5 would be Johnny U, Montana, Starr, Brady and Manning... But that is just me.
     
  7. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Not to mention Raptorman is citing 1 of his SBs. He had 4 of them, and in each he had an amazing game.

    We all agree that with a mediocre team, he wouldn't have gotten 4 SBs.

    But without him, they don't win any of those. (Don't give me the Young argument, because Young is also a HOF QB.)

    4 SBs, with the way he played, no, that's not the defense.
     
  8. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    I would agree with that top 5. Arguments can be made for others, but that is a fair assessment.
     
  9. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    I just can't see any top 5 without a guy that was 9 times all pro, 1 time MVP, and most importantly, won 7 championships in 10 years. I would put Graham in there.

    I also disagree with Alex Talisch of Packerslounge.com, that you can only argue about a player you have seen. That way in 50 years you'd have to automatically exclude Starr out of the best of all time consideration, because none alive would've seen him.

    There's enough statistics and video evidence to make a case for almost anyone that played the game.
     
  10. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Yeah, there is no basis for that "only considering players you've seen argument." That's nonsense. I never saw Bart Starr play, but I know he's one of the best. Being born a year after Montana, Elway, or Marino retired can't exclude you from being able to make arguments for them.
     
  11. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    This was going on about Marino and Montana. My point was and is that Montana had good stats, and was a good QB, but that he also had good defense's when he took the Niners to the Super Bowls. No one can deny that. He did not do it on his own. The question comes in, could he have done it with a defense that was not in the top 10? Marino never had that option. Marino never had the defense's that Montana had. And I say, if you put Marino on the Niners during that time period, he comes out with 4 Super Bowls as well. That is not taking anything away from Montana.
     
  12. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    I don't think any person alive could give you a rational argument for why Graham doesn't belong in the top 5 other than to say that the line has to be drawn somewhere, and as time goes on the list will get so long that top 5 will no longer cut it. If they are still playing NFL football 100 years from now it will likely need to be a top 20 because so many would be so great and so hard to pick from.

    FYI, Graham would have been #6 on my list but I could have just as easily included him at the expense of one of the top 5 I listed (it is really close). First 3 time MVP back in the day before the forward pass was nearly what it was today.

    Also, I agree that needing to see the guy play is rubbish. It HELPS, that is why I have such strong belief in Montana, but I have seen so much of Starr on video and consider myself enough of a student of the game to know how the game was so different before the "modern era" and beyond.
     
  13. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Okay, straying from the "If Ryan Leaf was drafted by the Colts, he would be a superstar" futile debate, here's why Manning isn't a top 5 all time for me.

    Caldwell ordered third-and-one call | ProFootballTalk.com

    Really, Manning? Throwing your coach under the bus because YOU threw a pick six late in the game, when you absolutely couldn't have? And this happens every year he loses in the playoffs.

    That's why winning SBs is so important. Because losers complain about anothers. Winners take upon themselves to win.
     
  14. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    The one thing that really helps out the "newer" QB's is that in 1978 or 79 when they changed the rules on DB's contact with WR's. They used to mug them all the way down the field. That is one of the reasons you have so many of the "old school" QB's with much lower completion percentages. Which the QB rating does not take into consideration. They should have a separate rating system for QB's prior to that rule change. Just tweaking the multiplier a bit would do it. I can't imagine what Otto Graham could have done with today's rules.
     
  15. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    I include Manning because I think there is more to write in his book yet, likely to include another SB and probably all passing records but... Probably not fair to include someone based on speculation. Otherwise I could probably include that 13 year old who just verballed to USC too. So, scratch Manning for now and go with

    Unitas, Starr, Montana, Brady and Graham!
     
  16. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Arnie Herber! Green Bay native......

    Herber and Cecil Isbell to Don Hudson. Great throwing duo who changed the game.
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    But that's the thing. Cecil had a lot of sucess interchanging Herber. But they don't have great stats, no great personal awards.

    I think this was more in favor of Don Hudson than of the two.

    But IMHO Herber is the 3rd best Packer qb of all time. Did you see that vid of him breaking that glass? Awesome.

    (BTW, Starr, Favre, Herber, Dickey and Rodgers already has surpassed Majik Man in my concept).
     
  18. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    No way... The Majik Man won me 5 free tacos for that win versus NO in the home opener in 1989 (35-34 win with 1 free taco for each packer TD)... For that I will always be in his debt and therefore in his pocket!

    Majik will ALWAYS be the best Packer QB...

    Now, if any of the others want to give me 6 free tacos then we can talk...
    :jester:
     
  19. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    "I would turn in all three Super Bowl rings and my Hall of Fame bust for one free taco" Michael Irvin
     
  20. Pack88

    Pack88 Cheesehead

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    I don't know if this is Manning Bashing but I wrote all last week #18 was over rated. Either Starr or Montana win this game easily. Everybody is wrapped up in Montana they forget Starr had the coldest heart in the game, he never felt pressure.
    Pack88
     
  21. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Absolutely. The game was also very different then. Herber got in the NFL hall of fame while playing and passing out of Lambeau's Notre Dame single wing offense. I think at that time you still could only throw a forward pass if you were five yards behind the line of scrimmage. Herber was technically a half back I guess.
     
  22. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    Manning was the greatest product-of-a-system as I've ever seen in the NFL.

    At a time BEFORE free agency.=; with one of the greatest coaching staffs in NFL history; with one of the most prolific (note I didn't say "greatest") WR's in NFL history.....the list goes on and on and on. And, you look at his overall numbers and they're only decent.

    Jesus H., Brett Favre had more TD's this year than Montana's last FOUR years. The two are not even close - Favre is in a completely different league above and beyond Montana.
     
  23. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    I suppose you feel the same way about Adrian Peterson and Jim Brown too right? Favre is an all time great QB but only will enter into the "best" ever category among his worshipers. Top 10, yeah. Best ever, no way. Horrible post season record, too many season ending poor decisions and way too many INTs.

    I'll give you favre lovers one thing though - you are persistant as hell.
     
  24. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Couldn't agree with you more about your Favre assessment. Spot on.
     
  25. Jess

    Jess Movement!

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    Off-topic: The phrase "Jesus H. Brett Favre" is pretty damn hilarious.
     

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