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Were are the Manning haters?

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by angryguy77, Feb 8, 2010.

  1. Forget Favre

    Forget Favre Cheesehead

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    Even before the hike I said out loud "Interception."

    I don't think or see Manning doing anything wrong. He threw what he thought was an open receiver. Tracy Porter just happened to be in right place, right time.
    It wasn't the mistakes this time that lost the game. It was simply that the Colts were outplayed.
    Field goals, great D and O and the gutsy surprise onside kick.
     
  2. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Not one play. A lost at a Superbowl, added to a series of early quits in the playoffs.

    Whoever considers Marino as the best ever needs a serious lobotomy, nothing personal.

    Hypothesis that will never be tested cannot enter in the subject. Fact is fact, and fact is Marino couldn't win it all, and that Manning didn't win it. Brees did. He playes his mind out, with a lot of people were saying was inferior talent.

    You just can't consider a guy the best ever if he never won a SB in 10+ years. Not when guys like Montana, Starr and Graham won so much, while playing lights out.

    It's not greatness that's being contested. It's all around superiority.

    Marion is the best regular season QB ever. Manning could surpass him. Favre is for sure a top 5.

    But the mark of a great qb is postseason sucess and clutchness. Starr has the best postseason ratings of ALL TIME, and has 5 championships, 2 SB rings, and 2 SB MVP rings. Montana has 4 SBs and 3 SB MVPs. Manning and Marino don't come even close to that.
     
  3. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    But was Manning great?

    Was Brees great?
     
  4. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    I did ask as a favor and you don't want to..Thats fine

    btw?

    If I wanted to thump my chest towards you, you would have felt it
     
  5. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Owie... Because message boards are my life and it would have bruised my ego is that what you are saying?
    LOL
    Listen, you started **** with me not vice-versa. If you want to act like calling someone out in public is the best way to get desired results then that is your business - but it isn't and I think most people would realize that pretty easily. If you hoped for a certain outcome you went about things the wrong way - but hey, the toothpaste is out of the tube now - and why admit you handled it poorly?? I mean, who cares about little details like the truth right?
     
  6. Green_Bay_Packers

    Green_Bay_Packers Cheesehead

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    Clay relax pal

    Anyway back on topic people
     
  7. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Obviously its a speculative argument, but I think if you look at Marino vs. Montana, clearly Marino is the better quarterback. I'm not saying Montana is bad, clearly he's a winner and a great qb, I think strictly based on talent and ability I would take Marino anyday. Just like I would take Manning over Brady and RODGERS OVER FAVRE!
     
  8. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    I agree with everything you said there. I'm not saying Dan Marino is the best quarterback ever. I'm merely saying that he might be the most talented guy to ever play the position. My point is simply this, Peyton Manning has won a super bowl, and his career isn't over. He's a great player and in my opinion last night doesn't diminish his talent or legacy.

    The main point I want to bring up is that having a much better team around you helps a lot also. I.E. running game, o-line, and defensive play. The Colts were fairly weak in all those aspects this season.
     
  9. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    I don't think it is clear at all. I think Montana is considered the best or one of the best ever for good reason. I think Marino had a better arm but did that make him a better QB?

    I think that these "best ever" arguments are a waste of time because they are so completely subjective. When you are talking about parsing guys who are generally agreed to be worthy of discussion championships invariably come into the argument and I think they should. I think Marino was a great QB but to say he was "clearly" (your word not mine) a better QB than Montana IMO diminishes a lot of what makes a QB great, like smarts, leadership and being a champion. I think that much of what made Montana great is what made Bart Starr great and I wouldn't for a second say Marino was better than Starr.
     
  10. ThinkICare

    ThinkICare Cheesehead

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    Manning didn't throw a pick 6, Reggie Wayne slipped. Not Manning's fault at all.
     
  11. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    FYI to clay

    Sorry I upset you..

    Carry on all
     
  12. NYPacker

    NYPacker Cheesehead

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    Completely agree. It takes two to complete a pass. The QB has to throw it the right way and the receiver has to be catch it the right way. Last night only one of those things happened, wayne didn't really make the right break in time to catch the pass so it wasn't really mannings' fault. Do I have to bring up Favre's INT in NFCCG '07?
     
  13. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    It's all good. Again, I wish you handled it a little differently but it's behind us. And I'll stop upsetting the favries out there and call him brett instead of brINT a little bit more... :happy0005:

    I don't have to love him or what he chose to do, but I guess it wouldn't kill me to not throw rocks at him every chance I get. No biggie - you all know how I feel about his actions - no need to keep talking about it.
     
  14. Green_Bay_Packers

    Green_Bay_Packers Cheesehead

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    WOOO WE ARE ALL Friends again

    *puts the Friends theme tune on and dances*

    OK BACK ON TOPIC!

    I respect Manning but sometimes a QB is always going to get some hate
     
  15. longtimefan

    longtimefan Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

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    bug off


    :)
     
  16. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    Here's a tricky one to whomever thinks Marino was the most TALENTED qb: Ryan Leaf disagrees.

    There's more to a QB than playing QB. The mental and leadership aspect of the game is crucial.

    Manning is a very good leader, and is mental though. But not nearly as much as Montana and Starr. Combined with how stellar those performed at the postseason and during clutch time (remember, when Montana faced Marino in the SB, Montana threw for 3 TDs while Marino threw 2 pics), those are IMHO the bests of all time.
     
  17. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    That's my approach, at least.

    If you take a look at the first posts I've made in this forum, don't know if it's possible, but you'll see my avatar being Favre hugging White, with the white comemorative SB jerseys and the SB cap. Like many other people, I HAD a Favre Jersey.

    If you look at the posts when he signed with the vikings, it's not going to be pretty.

    Now I'm over it. Don't care about him anymore. Moved on. Had some doubts about Rodgers, if he was only going to put up numbers, instead of performances, but that was also denied.

    I doubted if Rodgers was as good as old Favre, and that kept me hating Favre even more.

    But now that I'm certain Rodgers is better than old Favre, and pretty much pair with every other qb in the league, while having more upside than all of them, I don't care much about Favre. I'm much more focused on their team in general. :viksux:
     
  18. Raptorman

    Raptorman Vikings fan since 1966.

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    One thing people always overlook in this argument is the Defense. Montana always had a good defense to back him up. During his career in SF their defense ranked on the average 8th in yards and 5th in points given up. Marino's D's averaged 17th in yards and 15th in points.

    Montana's D' rank in his Super bowl victories.

    1982(81 season), 2nd in points and yards
    1985, 1st in points, 10th in yards
    1989 8th in points, 1st in yards
    1990, 3rd in points, 4th in yards.

    So you can say it was all Montana, but I think his D had a big say in it.
     
  19. PackersRS

    PackersRS Cheesehead

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    How much of the D had to do with the "best SB rating", "third best postseason rating" or the "3 time SB MVP"???
     
  20. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    Your argument is that the quarterback is the only position involved in winning a Super Bowl? Thats basically what I'm getting out of what you are saying. Don't you think that the 49ers TEAM in the 80's was head and shoulders above the Dolphins of the 80's? My point is this....Tom Brady and Joe Montana (both AMAZING qb's) have had a dominant team at every position around them. My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?
     
  21. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    I take Manning's performance like I'd take any performance from an NFL QB whose team has been out-manned: An NFL QB can only take a team so far. The rest is obviously up to his teammates and coaching staff.

    Manning appeared sharp early, but the Saints adjusted and began to stifle the Indy offense - as well-coached defenses do. It is then up to the Indy coaching staff to adjust accordingly and put their players in the best position to be successful. The Indy coaching staff failed and that forced Manning to do more than he was capable of - not unlike some Brett Favre scenarios.

    It's easy to armchair QB and say Manning choked, but that's really not a reasonable assessment. Granted, it's terribly easy to do. No research or analysis involved - just blabber away.
     
  22. Hauschild

    Hauschild Cheesehead

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    Finally, some sense being made. Stop the presses!!!:happy0005:
     
  23. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    If that is what you think I am saying I think we need to start over. I never said anything even approaching that and I hope your reading skills are better than this - especially if you went to a school as good as Notre Dame. Seriously, I went back and looked at what I wrote and I don't know how in the world you could have rationally come to the conclusion you did based on what I wrote.

    I simply said that IMO it an exercise in futility to play the "best ever game" but it is possible to assemble a list of greats at a position over time. It is nearly impossible to say who was the best but you do have certain facts that can aid in an argument. When a guy has been the QB of 4 SB champs and went 4-0 in the big game, was SB MVP 3 times and all of the other things Montana has on his resume, these are FACTS that cannot be taken from him and can only count as big positives when considering the greatest ever. Did I anywhere attempt to make the case that the QB and QB alone wins championships? I don't think I did. But, I did say, FAIR OR NOT, post season success is something that gets tossed out there when discussing the greatest guys ever. I did say that playing the postion at a high level takes a LOT more than a big, physical guy with a cannon for an arm. If that was the main recipe, then Ryan Leaf would have won at least a couple.

    So, nowhere did I say what you think I said. But you typed, and I quote, that Marino was "clearly" better than Montana. This is a statement that is not only crystal clear in it's meaning, but also impossible to prove and highly doubtful. Then you temper that by saying in your last post "My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?" Well, if he was CLEARLY better than Montana was don't you think the argument had they switched teams started at a minimum of 4 championships and not just one?
     
  24. Clay's Jock Strap

    Clay's Jock Strap TRK's Hero

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    Oh, and now that this fabulous thread has been derailed into a discussion what makes a QB the "best ever" or something along those lines - maybe we should get back to angryguy's original bait... I believe he was trying to prop his man (Brett Favre) up indirectly by saying that it was unfair that Peyton Manning isn't getting "hated on" for his last pick like the good 'ol gun slinger was after the Minny loss at NO. Well, as has been pointed out, he was wrong... AGAIN... Epic fail with your bait angry, again... As several people have argued here (was it Manning's fault or not), he was getting torched all over the media today for that pick. Personally, I thought it was a better play by Porter than it was a bad play by Manning. That said, your original thesis was an air ball - Manning is getting hammered plenty. So it isn't just your hero who gets "hated on" - but I do think he is an easier target because nobody in their right mind would compare the favre pick to Porter favorably to the Manning pick to Porter. Favre's was a horrible read on a throw they teach a QB not to attempt in pop warner.

    Again angry, epic fail on the favre chumming but nice try...
     
  25. AllouezPackerFan

    AllouezPackerFan Section 121 Row 47

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    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree buddy.
     

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