Were are the Manning haters?

Forget Favre

Cheesehead
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Even before the hike I said out loud "Interception."

I don't think or see Manning doing anything wrong. He threw what he thought was an open receiver. Tracy Porter just happened to be in right place, right time.
It wasn't the mistakes this time that lost the game. It was simply that the Colts were outplayed.
Field goals, great D and O and the gutsy surprise onside kick.
 

PackersRS

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Why does one play take him out of the "top 5 qb of all time" discussion? I still think he's one of the best ever. He's won a Super Bowl. Some consider Dan Marino the best ever and he hasn't won a Super Bowl.
Not one play. A lost at a Superbowl, added to a series of early quits in the playoffs.

Whoever considers Marino as the best ever needs a serious lobotomy, nothing personal.

Hypothesis that will never be tested cannot enter in the subject. Fact is fact, and fact is Marino couldn't win it all, and that Manning didn't win it. Brees did. He playes his mind out, with a lot of people were saying was inferior talent.

You just can't consider a guy the best ever if he never won a SB in 10+ years. Not when guys like Montana, Starr and Graham won so much, while playing lights out.

It's not greatness that's being contested. It's all around superiority.

Marion is the best regular season QB ever. Manning could surpass him. Favre is for sure a top 5.

But the mark of a great qb is postseason sucess and clutchness. Starr has the best postseason ratings of ALL TIME, and has 5 championships, 2 SB rings, and 2 SB MVP rings. Montana has 4 SBs and 3 SB MVPs. Manning and Marino don't come even close to that.
 

PackersRS

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Even before the hike I said out loud "Interception."

I don't think or see Manning doing anything wrong. He threw what he thought was an open receiver. Tracy Porter just happened to be in right place, right time.
It wasn't the mistakes this time that lost the game. It was simply that the Colts were outplayed.
Field goals, great D and O and the gutsy surprise onside kick.
But was Manning great?

Was Brees great?
 

longtimefan

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If it is just a favor then no - I'll do what I want. If it is mandatory then fine. BTW, I don't "hate" Brett - I love the Packers and don't appreciate how he wiped his *** on the organization on the way out the door. But hey, you go ahead and act like you understand my feelings when you don't mr SUPERMOD.

Whatever. BTW, thanks for the public flogging rather than expressing yourself in a PM. That would make me take YOU much more seriously instead of just thinking you like to call people out in public to thump your chest.

I did ask as a favor and you don't want to..Thats fine

btw?

If I wanted to thump my chest towards you, you would have felt it
 

Clay's Jock Strap

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If I wanted to thump my chest towards you, you would have felt it
Owie... Because message boards are my life and it would have bruised my ego is that what you are saying?
LOL
Listen, you started **** with me not vice-versa. If you want to act like calling someone out in public is the best way to get desired results then that is your business - but it isn't and I think most people would realize that pretty easily. If you hoped for a certain outcome you went about things the wrong way - but hey, the toothpaste is out of the tube now - and why admit you handled it poorly?? I mean, who cares about little details like the truth right?
 

AllouezPackerFan

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But this is an argument that you can only make in speculation because the history is written. Montana 4-0 in SBs, Marino 0-1.

Nobody said it was fair but it is fact and is a big part of how history will judge these two QBs.


Obviously its a speculative argument, but I think if you look at Marino vs. Montana, clearly Marino is the better quarterback. I'm not saying Montana is bad, clearly he's a winner and a great qb, I think strictly based on talent and ability I would take Marino anyday. Just like I would take Manning over Brady and RODGERS OVER FAVRE!
 

AllouezPackerFan

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Not one play. A lost at a Superbowl, added to a series of early quits in the playoffs.

Whoever considers Marino as the best ever needs a serious lobotomy, nothing personal.

Hypothesis that will never be tested cannot enter in the subject. Fact is fact, and fact is Marino couldn't win it all, and that Manning didn't win it. Brees did. He playes his mind out, with a lot of people were saying was inferior talent.

You just can't consider a guy the best ever if he never won a SB in 10+ years. Not when guys like Montana, Starr and Graham won so much, while playing lights out.

It's not greatness that's being contested. It's all around superiority.

Marion is the best regular season QB ever. Manning could surpass him. Favre is for sure a top 5.

But the mark of a great qb is postseason sucess and clutchness. Starr has the best postseason ratings of ALL TIME, and has 5 championships, 2 SB rings, and 2 SB MVP rings. Montana has 4 SBs and 3 SB MVPs. Manning and Marino don't come even close to that.


I agree with everything you said there. I'm not saying Dan Marino is the best quarterback ever. I'm merely saying that he might be the most talented guy to ever play the position. My point is simply this, Peyton Manning has won a super bowl, and his career isn't over. He's a great player and in my opinion last night doesn't diminish his talent or legacy.

The main point I want to bring up is that having a much better team around you helps a lot also. I.E. running game, o-line, and defensive play. The Colts were fairly weak in all those aspects this season.
 

Clay's Jock Strap

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Obviously its a speculative argument, but I think if you look at Marino vs. Montana, clearly Marino is the better quarterback. I'm not saying Montana is bad, clearly he's a winner and a great qb, I think strictly based on talent and ability I would take Marino anyday. Just like I would take Manning over Brady and RODGERS OVER FAVRE!
I don't think it is clear at all. I think Montana is considered the best or one of the best ever for good reason. I think Marino had a better arm but did that make him a better QB?

I think that these "best ever" arguments are a waste of time because they are so completely subjective. When you are talking about parsing guys who are generally agreed to be worthy of discussion championships invariably come into the argument and I think they should. I think Marino was a great QB but to say he was "clearly" (your word not mine) a better QB than Montana IMO diminishes a lot of what makes a QB great, like smarts, leadership and being a champion. I think that much of what made Montana great is what made Bart Starr great and I wouldn't for a second say Marino was better than Starr.
 

NYPacker

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Manning didn't throw a pick 6, Reggie Wayne slipped. Not Manning's fault at all.

Completely agree. It takes two to complete a pass. The QB has to throw it the right way and the receiver has to be catch it the right way. Last night only one of those things happened, wayne didn't really make the right break in time to catch the pass so it wasn't really mannings' fault. Do I have to bring up Favre's INT in NFCCG '07?
 

Clay's Jock Strap

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FYI to clay

Sorry I upset you..

Carry on all
It's all good. Again, I wish you handled it a little differently but it's behind us. And I'll stop upsetting the favries out there and call him brett instead of brINT a little bit more... :happy0005:

I don't have to love him or what he chose to do, but I guess it wouldn't kill me to not throw rocks at him every chance I get. No biggie - you all know how I feel about his actions - no need to keep talking about it.
 

PackersRS

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Here's a tricky one to whomever thinks Marino was the most TALENTED qb: Ryan Leaf disagrees.

There's more to a QB than playing QB. The mental and leadership aspect of the game is crucial.

Manning is a very good leader, and is mental though. But not nearly as much as Montana and Starr. Combined with how stellar those performed at the postseason and during clutch time (remember, when Montana faced Marino in the SB, Montana threw for 3 TDs while Marino threw 2 pics), those are IMHO the bests of all time.
 

PackersRS

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It's all good. Again, I wish you handled it a little differently but it's behind us. And I'll stop upsetting the favries out there and call him brett instead of brINT a little bit more... :happy0005:

I don't have to love him or what he chose to do, but I guess it wouldn't kill me to not throw rocks at him every chance I get. No biggie - you all know how I feel about his actions - no need to keep talking about it.
That's my approach, at least.

If you take a look at the first posts I've made in this forum, don't know if it's possible, but you'll see my avatar being Favre hugging White, with the white comemorative SB jerseys and the SB cap. Like many other people, I HAD a Favre Jersey.

If you look at the posts when he signed with the vikings, it's not going to be pretty.

Now I'm over it. Don't care about him anymore. Moved on. Had some doubts about Rodgers, if he was only going to put up numbers, instead of performances, but that was also denied.

I doubted if Rodgers was as good as old Favre, and that kept me hating Favre even more.

But now that I'm certain Rodgers is better than old Favre, and pretty much pair with every other qb in the league, while having more upside than all of them, I don't care much about Favre. I'm much more focused on their team in general. :viksux:
 

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Obviously its a speculative argument, but I think if you look at Marino vs. Montana, clearly Marino is the better quarterback. I'm not saying Montana is bad, clearly he's a winner and a great qb, I think strictly based on talent and ability I would take Marino anyday. Just like I would take Manning over Brady and RODGERS OVER FAVRE!
One thing people always overlook in this argument is the Defense. Montana always had a good defense to back him up. During his career in SF their defense ranked on the average 8th in yards and 5th in points given up. Marino's D's averaged 17th in yards and 15th in points.

Montana's D' rank in his Super bowl victories.

1982(81 season), 2nd in points and yards
1985, 1st in points, 10th in yards
1989 8th in points, 1st in yards
1990, 3rd in points, 4th in yards.

So you can say it was all Montana, but I think his D had a big say in it.
 

PackersRS

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One thing people always overlook in this argument is the Defense. Montana always had a good defense to back him up. During his career in SF their defense ranked on the average 8th in yards and 5th in points given up. Marino's D's averaged 17th in yards and 15th in points.

Montana's D' rank in his Super bowl victories.

1982(81 season), 2nd in points and yards
1985, 1st in points, 10th in yards
1989 8th in points, 1st in yards
1990, 3rd in points, 4th in yards.

So you can say it was all Montana, but I think his D had a big say in it.
How much of the D had to do with the "best SB rating", "third best postseason rating" or the "3 time SB MVP"???
 

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I don't think it is clear at all. I think Montana is considered the best or one of the best ever for good reason. I think Marino had a better arm but did that make him a better QB?

I think that these "best ever" arguments are a waste of time because they are so completely subjective. When you are talking about parsing guys who are generally agreed to be worthy of discussion championships invariably come into the argument and I think they should. I think Marino was a great QB but to say he was "clearly" (your word not mine) a better QB than Montana IMO diminishes a lot of what makes a QB great, like smarts, leadership and being a champion. I think that much of what made Montana great is what made Bart Starr great and I wouldn't for a second say Marino was better than Starr.


Your argument is that the quarterback is the only position involved in winning a Super Bowl? Thats basically what I'm getting out of what you are saying. Don't you think that the 49ers TEAM in the 80's was head and shoulders above the Dolphins of the 80's? My point is this....Tom Brady and Joe Montana (both AMAZING qb's) have had a dominant team at every position around them. My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?
 

Hauschild

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So Manning tosses a pick to put the game out of reach. Where is the bashing from the media? Does this mean he is a choker and can't win the big game? After all he has only one ring in his career and has had two chances just like Favre. Whenever Favre comes up we are told that Manning is so much better because he doesn't choke in the clutch. Well it seems to me that when any team puts so much on the qb to make plays, there can be mistakes no matter how good the qb.

Now I don't blame this loss entirley on Manning, his d couldn't get NO off the field and give him enough chances to win the game.

Let the spin begin....

I take Manning's performance like I'd take any performance from an NFL QB whose team has been out-manned: An NFL QB can only take a team so far. The rest is obviously up to his teammates and coaching staff.

Manning appeared sharp early, but the Saints adjusted and began to stifle the Indy offense - as well-coached defenses do. It is then up to the Indy coaching staff to adjust accordingly and put their players in the best position to be successful. The Indy coaching staff failed and that forced Manning to do more than he was capable of - not unlike some Brett Favre scenarios.

It's easy to armchair QB and say Manning choked, but that's really not a reasonable assessment. Granted, it's terribly easy to do. No research or analysis involved - just blabber away.
 

Hauschild

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One thing people always overlook in this argument is the Defense. Montana always had a good defense to back him up. During his career in SF their defense ranked on the average 8th in yards and 5th in points given up. Marino's D's averaged 17th in yards and 15th in points.

Montana's D' rank in his Super bowl victories.

1982(81 season), 2nd in points and yards
1985, 1st in points, 10th in yards
1989 8th in points, 1st in yards
1990, 3rd in points, 4th in yards.

So you can say it was all Montana, but I think his D had a big say in it.

Finally, some sense being made. Stop the presses!!!:happy0005:
 

Clay's Jock Strap

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Your argument is that the quarterback is the only position involved in winning a Super Bowl? Thats basically what I'm getting out of what you are saying. Don't you think that the 49ers TEAM in the 80's was head and shoulders above the Dolphins of the 80's? My point is this....Tom Brady and Joe Montana (both AMAZING qb's) have had a dominant team at every position around them. My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?
If that is what you think I am saying I think we need to start over. I never said anything even approaching that and I hope your reading skills are better than this - especially if you went to a school as good as Notre Dame. Seriously, I went back and looked at what I wrote and I don't know how in the world you could have rationally come to the conclusion you did based on what I wrote.

I simply said that IMO it an exercise in futility to play the "best ever game" but it is possible to assemble a list of greats at a position over time. It is nearly impossible to say who was the best but you do have certain facts that can aid in an argument. When a guy has been the QB of 4 SB champs and went 4-0 in the big game, was SB MVP 3 times and all of the other things Montana has on his resume, these are FACTS that cannot be taken from him and can only count as big positives when considering the greatest ever. Did I anywhere attempt to make the case that the QB and QB alone wins championships? I don't think I did. But, I did say, FAIR OR NOT, post season success is something that gets tossed out there when discussing the greatest guys ever. I did say that playing the postion at a high level takes a LOT more than a big, physical guy with a cannon for an arm. If that was the main recipe, then Ryan Leaf would have won at least a couple.

So, nowhere did I say what you think I said. But you typed, and I quote, that Marino was "clearly" better than Montana. This is a statement that is not only crystal clear in it's meaning, but also impossible to prove and highly doubtful. Then you temper that by saying in your last post "My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?" Well, if he was CLEARLY better than Montana was don't you think the argument had they switched teams started at a minimum of 4 championships and not just one?
 

Clay's Jock Strap

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Oh, and now that this fabulous thread has been derailed into a discussion what makes a QB the "best ever" or something along those lines - maybe we should get back to angryguy's original bait... I believe he was trying to prop his man (Brett Favre) up indirectly by saying that it was unfair that Peyton Manning isn't getting "hated on" for his last pick like the good 'ol gun slinger was after the Minny loss at NO. Well, as has been pointed out, he was wrong... AGAIN... Epic fail with your bait angry, again... As several people have argued here (was it Manning's fault or not), he was getting torched all over the media today for that pick. Personally, I thought it was a better play by Porter than it was a bad play by Manning. That said, your original thesis was an air ball - Manning is getting hammered plenty. So it isn't just your hero who gets "hated on" - but I do think he is an easier target because nobody in their right mind would compare the favre pick to Porter favorably to the Manning pick to Porter. Favre's was a horrible read on a throw they teach a QB not to attempt in pop warner.

Again angry, epic fail on the favre chumming but nice try...
 

AllouezPackerFan

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If that is what you think I am saying I think we need to start over. I never said anything even approaching that and I hope your reading skills are better than this - especially if you went to a school as good as Notre Dame. Seriously, I went back and looked at what I wrote and I don't know how in the world you could have rationally come to the conclusion you did based on what I wrote.

I simply said that IMO it an exercise in futility to play the "best ever game" but it is possible to assemble a list of greats at a position over time. It is nearly impossible to say who was the best but you do have certain facts that can aid in an argument. When a guy has been the QB of 4 SB champs and went 4-0 in the big game, was SB MVP 3 times and all of the other things Montana has on his resume, these are FACTS that cannot be taken from him and can only count as big positives when considering the greatest ever. Did I anywhere attempt to make the case that the QB and QB alone wins championships? I don't think I did. But, I did say, FAIR OR NOT, post season success is something that gets tossed out there when discussing the greatest guys ever. I did say that playing the postion at a high level takes a LOT more than a big, physical guy with a cannon for an arm. If that was the main recipe, then Ryan Leaf would have won at least a couple.

So, nowhere did I say what you think I said. But you typed, and I quote, that Marino was "clearly" better than Montana. This is a statement that is not only crystal clear in it's meaning, but also impossible to prove and highly doubtful. Then you temper that by saying in your last post "My argument was put Marino on the 49ers, which was the much better team of the two, and do you think he would have won a Super Bowl?" Well, if he was CLEARLY better than Montana was don't you think the argument had they switched teams started at a minimum of 4 championships and not just one?


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree buddy.
 

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