Wanna watch something frustrating?

[Wynnebeck]

A video of Tim Masthay competing with other punters on who can kick the ball the farthest and get it in the end zone. I won't ruin it but you'll see why I'm now extremely pissed off lol.

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[scotscheese]

all those guys are punting it 70+ yards in that vid, but how many ever do that on a sunday, in match conditions? and no line-men rushing trying to block etc... plus what is he being asked to do by coaches

it's easy to do something like this when not in a competitive atmosphere regardless of the sport or activity

 

[LarrysCrookedFinger]

all those guys are punting it 70+ yards in that vid, but how many ever do that on a sunday, in match conditions? and no line-men rushing trying to block etc... plus what is he being asked to do by coaches

it's easy to do something like this when not in a competitive atmosphere regardless of the sport or activity

Green Bay isn't exactly a kicking-friendly venue either.

 

[CashInFist]

all those guys are punting it 70+ yards in that vid, but how many ever do that on a sunday, in match conditions? and no line-men rushing trying to block etc... plus what is he being asked to do by coaches

it's easy to do something like this when not in a competitive atmosphere regardless of the sport or activity

Yep.

 

[Wynnebeck]

Obviously this was for fun and not in game time conditions but that feels more like an excuse to wave away Masthay's criticism when he's now being graded as having another terrible year. You're yelling me that you have the skill and precision to hit the endzone on a 75+ yard punt but you can't even kick the ball 30-40 yards in game? No, that's no excuse at all.

 

[Mondio]

There were a few times this year, in good weather and in domes, where Masthay had an opportunity to help us out and he seemed to come out with the worst punts and the worst times. Maybe that's why I have a worse impression of him than I should? but it got to be I was just relieved when it wasn't a shank or just a very bad punt. It was like watching our ST coverage units a couple years ago, just hoping they didn't give up a big return every single time we punted or kicked off.

It seems when we needed a boomer, it went 30 yards in the air and when 30 yards would have pinned them at the 5 or 7 yard line it went thru the endzone or out of bounds at the 25 instead. For all the word about his control and directional punts, I saw very little of that this year.

 

[C-Lee]

He's awful.

 

[Half Empty]

I think he's the definition of "eye test". No need to peruse stats or video evidence - he's just not the guy we want.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Obviously this was for fun and not in game time conditions but that feels more like an excuse to wave away Masthay's criticism when he's now being graded as having another terrible year. You're yelling me that you have the skill and precision to hit the endzone on a 75+ yard punt but you can't even kick the ball 30-40 yards in game? No, that's no excuse at all.

So who is waving away Masthay's criticism? I haven't really seen that. But in addition to all the other things pointed out why this isn't the same as punting in game conditions, these punts were measured from where the punter kicked the ball. During a game, the punt yardage is measured from the line of scrimmage, not where it is kicked, which will take off between 10 and 15 yards. I'm not sure why field goal distance is based on where it is kicked from but punts are based on the line of scrimmage. They both should be from where it is kicked IMO.

 

[scotscheese]

So who is waving away Masthay's criticism? I haven't really seen that. But in addition to all the other things pointed out why this isn't the same as punting in game conditions, these punts were measured from where the punter kicked the ball. During a game, the punt yardage is measured from the line of scrimmage, not where it is kicked, which will take off between 10 and 15 yards. I'm not sure why field goal distance is based on where it is kicked from but punts are based on the line of scrimmage. They both should be from where it is kicked IMO.

possibly because different punters take different size/amount of steps before kicking it, so measuring from LOS is always a steady marker?

 

[Half Empty]

Also, it's for comparison, so as long as it's same for all punters, it's fair. They can take the square root of the distance from the center's butt, as long as they do it for everyone. The fact that it's easier for the stats guys may be a factor, too - as mentioned above, one knows where the PK is going to kick from before the play starts, whereas the P may be kicking from various distances.

 

[Poppa San]

All offensive yardage is marked from the LOS. I assume a punt falls in that category. All scoring plays are marked from the start of the play, hence 100+ yard returns. In theory there can be a 118 yard field goal which is probably the longest play possible in the NFL.

 

[Half Empty]

I think I understand your 'scoring plays' sentence, since your specify 'returns' Any regular offensive play can be no longer than 99 yards, though, right?

The 118 yard FG has me a little confused though. Can you relate the specifics - where is the ball in that situation snapped from?

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I don't really care if Masthay can punt the ball 100 yards in a non football situation. The bottom line is when it comes to game time he has consistently under performed for 2 years. Field position, won or lost, can be the deciding factor in games and Masthay has been terrible at winning that battle for us. The Packers have given him ample time to prove himself, find someone who can do the job and stop using the argument of "Crosby trusts him to hold" or "he is doing what the coaches are asking him to do".

 

[Pkrjones]

Masthay is not a top 5 in the NFL punter, but is one of, if not THE best punter that has been a Packer. His career avg. is 44.2 yds/p, and in '15 was 43.9. 2014 was his statistically worst year, but the offense scored so much that he only punted 49 times, with a few games with zero punts. He punted 81 times in 2015 and had career low return yards/punt allowed, career high net yards and most kicks out of bounds.

We don't know what his instructions were from Zook, but other teams didn't light-up the punting units as has happened in the recent past. Would we like to see more fair catches at the 10 yard line? Heck yeah. When the offense stalls at their own 20 would we like Masthay to boom a 60+ yarder EVERY time? Heck yeah, but he did his job pretty well regardless of what some fans think.

FYI - Craig Hentrich was "the one that got away" which was a regret of Ron Wolf for not re-signing. Hentrich's Packer career long punt was 70 yds (vs. Masthay's 71) and avg./punt as a Packer was 42.8 yds (vs. Masthay's 44.2 yds).

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

possibly because different punters take different size/amount of steps before kicking it, so measuring from LOS is always a steady marker?

So are you telling me that it would be too difficult for someone to determine where a punter kicks the ball from? They keep stats like YAC (yards after catch) and yards a runner makes after contact, so if they can determine those stats they sure as heck can figure out where a punter kicks the ball from.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

I think I understand your 'scoring plays' sentence, since your specify 'returns' Any regular offensive play can be no longer than 99 yards, though, right?

The 118 yard FG has me a little confused though. Can you relate the specifics - where is the ball in that situation snapped from?

Not sure if that was a typo, but in theory the longest field goal could be from 119, not 118. There is nothing that says you have to line up exactly 7 yards behind the LOS for a field goal. The LOS could be at the 1 and the holder could set up 9 yards deep in the end zone. Of course that would mean the kicker would have to stand behind the end line at the start of the play, but I don't think there is any rule that says he has to start in the field of play. But any regular offensive play like a run or pass can only be 99 yards. But a 119 yards scoring play more than likely would come from an interception return, missed field goal return, punt or kickoff return.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

So are you telling me that it would be too difficult for someone to determine where a punter kicks the ball from? They keep stats like YAC (yards after catch) and yards a runner makes after contact, so if they can determine those stats they sure as heck can figure out where a punter kicks the ball from.

Does it really make that much of a difference when evaluating a punter and the job that they are doing? One might argue that QB's passing yards should be taken from the spot that they throw the ball, not the LOS. Would be pretty much a useless stat in my mind.

YAC is a much more meaningful stat, since it tells you what a receiver can do after they catch the ball.

 

[Half Empty]

So are you telling me that it would be too difficult for someone to determine where a punter kicks the ball from? They keep stats like YAC (yards after catch) and yards a runner makes after contact, so if they can determine those stats they sure as heck can figure out where a punter kicks the ball from.

I'd say the point is that they can, but they don't need to. Yards after anything can start from almost anywhere, and the accuracy of those kinds of stats is always suspect. Why build in another subjective measurement (again, since LOS for punting is the same for everyone)?

 

[Half Empty]

Not sure if that was a typo, but in theory the longest field goal could be from 119, not 118. There is nothing that says you have to line up exactly 7 yards behind the LOS for a field goal. The LOS could be at the 1 and the holder could set up 9 yards deep in the end zone. Of course that would mean the kicker would have to stand behind the end line at the start of the play, but I don't think there is any rule that says he has to start in the field of play. But any regular offensive play like a run or pass can only be 99 yards. But a 119 yards scoring play more than likely would come from an interception return, missed field goal return, punt or kickoff return.

I think we're into silliness now, but it's a slow period. As to the bold, again would like the specifics - if the player catches the ball in any of those return scenarios in his own EZ and is not OOB, he's only nine yards deep. However, let's say ten for the EZ, 100 to the other goal line, at which time the play is over. Can't get to 119.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

Does it really make that much of a difference when evaluating a punter and the job that they are doing? One might argue that QB's passing yards should be taken from the spot that they throw the ball, not the LOS. Would be pretty much a useless stat in my mind.

No, it really doesn't make that much difference, I was just wondering why they do it differently for a field goal versus a punt. The only reason I brought it up is because someone was complaining that Masthay could kick 75+ yards in that competition but had trouble kicking a 40 yard punt in a game.

As for qbs, passing yards are from LOS but they do keep a stat for pass yards 'in the air' which is calculated from the point of release to where the receiver catches the ball. My point being they can determine where a punter punts the ball from, so why not calculate punt yards the same as field goal yards. Again, not a big deal, just curious.

YAC is a much more meaningful stat, since it tells you what a receiver can do after they catch the ball.

As far as YAC being meaningful for evaluating a receiver, I would say that is debatable. If the defense blows coverage and a receiver doesn't have anyone close to him and he has 50 YAC yards, is that really because of the receiver? Now if the stat was yards after 'contact' then I could see that as being more meaningful than just yards after 'catch', which is what YAC stands for. YAC is probably more meaningful for a qb because it means the pass hit the receiver in stride and the receiver didn't have to dive for the ball.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

I'd say the point is that they can, but they don't need to. Yards after anything can start from almost anywhere, and the accuracy of those kinds of stats is always suspect. Why build in another subjective measurement (again, since LOS for punting is the same for everyone)?

I see your point, so why not calculate field goals from LOS since it is the same for everyone as well. It just seems odd that field goals are the only plays not calculated from LOS.

 

[Daryl Muellenberg]

I think we're into silliness now, but it's a slow period. As to the bold, again would like the specifics - if the player catches the ball in any of those return scenarios in his own EZ and is not OOB, he's only nine yards deep. However, let's say ten for the EZ, 100 to the other goal line, at which time the play is over. Can't get to 119.

Ha! Good point, I guess I was just looking at the 8 versus 9, so yes, 109 is the longest play. Unless we were talking about Canadian football, which of course we aren't.

But a field goal is marked from where the ball is kicked to the goal post which is 10 yards deep in the end zone. So if the holder lines up 9 yard deep in his endzone, the ball would have to travel 119 yards. So in theory a field goal is the only play that can be the longest scoring play.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

As far as YAC being meaningful for evaluating a receiver, I would say that is debatable.

You are going to have a hard time convincing me that YAC isn't a meaningful stat, since it shows a receivers ability to run after the catch (contact or no contact). Take Richard Rodgers and compare his YAC to Gronk. Who has the better stats? James Jones and Jeff Janis catch a pass, nobody near them, who is going to have more YAC? Now if you want to combine yards after contact, you have an even more meaningful stat.

Take a look at this and tell me it doesn't say something about YAC being meaningful. Make sure to click on the YAC tab to see the receivers that led the league.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-receiving-yards-at-the-catch-yatc/2015/

 

[scotscheese]

So are you telling me that it would be too difficult for someone to determine where a punter kicks the ball from? They keep stats like YAC (yards after catch) and yards a runner makes after contact, so if they can determine those stats they sure as heck can figure out where a punter kicks the ball from.

i wasn't telling anything, i was just adding my opinion/thoughts on maybe why punts are measured from LOS. why don't you ask the NFL or other stats recorders why they do this

maybe they should re-structure it to net yards from LOS, and gross yards from where the kick took place.

this i'm afraid is not an area of expertise, as unlike most of this forum i haven't been raised on US sports, ask me a question on the transport of dangerous goods and i can be more definitive than just offering a possible explanation