Vikings will win the Division

[OldSchool101]

Mmmmm.......I don't know. I'm having trouble with the rationale "this team beat that team ergo your team can beat that team".

I was surprised and astounded that the Ram pounded the Seahawks. I was surprised and astounded that the 49ers pounded the Packers.

We'll have to read through all 1000 "what's wrong with the Packers" threads to come up with a reason. My "pretty much worthless" take is (a) where was MVS the past few weeks? Did he contribute anything at all? (b) why are other teams receivers always running roughshod through the Packers defense and making all these "chunk plays"? and of course (c) why can't we get a TE that doesn't suck? (I really don't like JG, at all.)

The Packers have played a fine season thus far with highly enjoyable wins over the Bears, Vikings, Cowboys and Chiefs.

But I think they're "not quite ready" to compete with the Seahawks, 49ers, Saints, or god forbid, Ravens.

The point I’m making is they may not have to play all those teams. GB could buy some time by winning the last 3 and taking a week off. We have to remember this is a first year Offense and logically you’d improve over the course of a season.

That said. I’m not proposing GB can play uninspired and win. But they certainly could make gradual improvements before a division game in 5 weeks.
I don’t think that’s outrageous at all.

 

[ShockwaveRider]

Trust me, I'm "all on-board" with the Packers winning the next three games and getting a first-round bye. I don't think that's outrageous at all, really.

The Vikings game troubles me the most, simply because we have to play @ Minnesota on a Monday night.

If the Packers stub their toe in the next three games, that's where I think it will be.

I've been blessed to actually watch all four Packers Superbowl wins (and one heart-breaking loss) so I have little doubt it could happen again.

Just not fully convinced this is the year it's going to happen.

 

[Curly Calhoun]

Trust me, I'm "all on-board" with the Packers winning the next three games and getting a first-round bye. I don't think that's outrageous at all, really.

The Vikings game troubles me the most, simply because we have to play @ Minnesota on a Monday night.

If the Packers stub their toe in the next three games, that's where I think it will be.

I've been blessed to actually watch all four Packers Superbowl wins (and one heart-breaking loss) so I have little doubt it could happen again.

Just not fully convinced this is the year it's going to happen.

It would be quite an accomplishment to win a Super Bowl with a rookie head coach.

I'm just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts....This team has exceeded all reasonable expectations.

 

[OldSchool101]

It would be quite an accomplishment to win a Super Bowl with a rookie head coach.

I'm just going to enjoy the ride while it lasts....This team has exceeded all reasonable expectations.

It really has. MLF has overall done a nice job getting the RBs more involved in the passing game. We are just a few solid players in key positions from being really good. ILB, TE, WR and possibly DT
Give us a Roquon Smith, Kittle and McLaurin and you’d see a significant improvement in our team.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

But I think they're "not quite ready" to compete with the Seahawks, 49ers, Saints, or god forbid, Ravens.

Perhaps not, but I really want to see how we match up against the Ravens, so let's go for it!

 

[OldSchool101]

Perhaps not, but I really want to see how we match up against the Ravens, so let's go for it!

I just re-watched the first 3 Rocky’s. We’re like Rocky overachieving and the Ravens are like Clubber Lane in his heyday. I pity the fool! (Making Grunting Sounds)

 

[AmishMafia]

Give us a Roquon Smith, Kittle and McLaurin and you’d see a significant improvement in our team.

I think every team can say that.

I think, for defense, it is a ILB. This is maybe the 4th year in a row I have wanted a ILB.

I would like a small shifty WR, but we never seem to go that route. I am content with our current stable. There is some really good talent at WR. At TE, I think Tonyan and Sternberger can both be good. Willing to wait and see. But ILB? An immediate upgrade there permeates throughout the roster. I think only Murray in the draft can make a big impact.

 

[Pokerbrat2000]

I just re-watched the first 3 Rocky’s. We’re like Rocky overachieving and the Ravens are like Clubber Lane in his heyday. I pity the fool! (Making Grunting Sounds)

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[Deleted member 6794]

Right now, it's hard for me to envision the Packers being anything other than "completely and utterly mashed" by the 49ers (again) the Seahawks or the Saints.

It would be nice to have a 13-3 or even a 12-4 season though.

Just not seeing a "championship run" in this particular team.

I don't consider the Packers to be a championship caliber team either but with both the Saints and Niners giving up at least 46 points and the Seahawks losing to the Rams this week they didn't look much better either.

with the way east is looking vikings will get a wild card.

The NFC East doesn't have any impact on the wild card teams anymore.

How is that possible? GB is 2 division wins ahead and holds the tie breaker.
Give us any example of how we tie with the Vikings at both 10 and 11 Wins and still lose the division. I’m not seeing your scenario.

If the Packers and Vikings both finish at 10 wins Minnesota clinches the division based on a better conference record (both would finish the season 3-3 in division games, 9-5 in common games - Vikings 8-4 against the NFC, Packers 7-5).

In that scenario, the Bears would even win the division by beating the Chiefs on top of the Packers and Vikings based on the best record in the division (5-1) with Green Bay finishing in third.

It gets more complicated at 11 wins for the Packers to not win the division but there's a small chance of it happening.

The Vikings would have to beat the Bears on top of the Packers while losing to the Chargers, leaving both teams with a 4-2 record in the division, 10-4 in common games and 8-4 in conference games.

That means the strength of victory tie breaker would have to decide the division. While the Packers (.427) currently hold the edge over Minnesota (.333) that can change rapidly over the last three weeks with most games having an impact on it.

yeah but we do suck, and I don't mean that to be pessimistic or a whiner. we barely beat teams that are not even in contention right now. also, the way we play against caliber teams like 49's, while saints played against them accordingly, just puts a damper in our chances of going to the big bowl.

Once again, the Packers haven't been convincing as of late but all other NFC teams making the playoffs have issues as well.

I would like a small shifty WR, but we never seem to go that route. I am content with our current stable. There is some really good talent at WR. At TE, I think Tonyan and Sternberger can both be good. Willing to wait and see. But ILB? An immediate upgrade there permeates throughout the roster. I think only Murray in the draft can make a big impact.

I agree the Packers need an upgrade at inside linebacker next offseason but thy definitely shouldn't feel fine about their wide receivers and tight ends either.

 

[AmishMafia]

I agree the Packers need an upgrade at inside linebacker next offseason but thy definitely shouldn't feel fine about their wide receivers and tight ends either.

The Pack should be trying to upgrade every position, including WR and TE. I think ILB, ROT, QB, LOT, and OG are more important.

Draft isn't looking good for ILB. We may end up grabbing a WR by the 3rd due to BPA.

 

[tynimiller]

I just re-watched the first 3 Rocky’s. We’re like Rocky overachieving and the Ravens are like Clubber Lane in his heyday. I pity the fool! (Making Grunting Sounds)

Given the outcome, I'll gladly let us play the role of Rocky!!!!

I agree the Packers need an upgrade at inside linebacker next offseason but thy definitely shouldn't feel fine about their wide receivers and tight ends either.

I've been giving this a touch of thought...well shoot what true fan isn't. I think the most obviously positions which need upgraded OR improvement seen in the off season is WR (we need a serious jump by one or an addition, Adams needs his #2), ILB (Martinez is gonna be asking for a vastly too lucrative of a contract for us to do) and TE (Jimmy needs gone, I'd resign Big Dog and that leaves us with the young Tonyan and Jace).

Now clearly I don't believe Gute and Co should head into the draft expecting to find/hit on all 3 of those positions...I feel it is much more likely to in FA discover at WORST (I am stressing this worst case) case a stop gap capable youngster with promise or even a veteran NOT at the end but nearing their career end at the Wide Receiver position.

BUT my issue with that is I still feel the top end WR's are much easier to project their abilities and expected success in the NFL than it is with a TE to a degree...so while I hate saying this with our last TE acquisition (Graham not Lewis) being IMO a failure we may want to look to the TE free agency market depending on how comfortable we are with Tonyan and Jace projections.

That leaves me thinking ILB and WR should be taken with 2 of our first 3 picks...even if that means trading a spot or two up if you see "your guy" there still. The only other position I feel should be looked at with one of our coveted high picks is OL stud....but again a serviceable OL plug for back up could easily be done for a year and think future 2021 or 2020 late rounder.

Sorry I rambled...in between phone calls and such...but overall I personally would be willing to sacrifice our late round draft and even tap into 2021 draft if it means getting us top "our guys" at ILB and WR this next draft. Aaron ain't getting younger...now is the time to push the pedal IMO.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

The Pack should be trying to upgrade every position, including WR and TE. I think ILB, ROT, QB, LOT, and OG are more important.

WR and TE are both pressing needs entering next offseason though. Aside of inside linebacker I don't agree with any of the positions you mentioned to be more important.

 

[Pugger]

WR and TE are both pressing needs entering next offseason though. Aside of inside linebacker I don't agree with any of the positions you mentioned to be more important.

Well, it wouldn't hurt to get another big body on the DL next to Kenny Clark...

 

[Deleted member 6794]

Well, it wouldn't hurt to get another big body on the DL next to Kenny Clark...

No, it wouldn't. But Rodgers need some weapons in the passing game first in my opinion.

 

[AmishMafia]

WR and TE are both pressing needs entering next offseason though. Aside of inside linebacker I don't agree with any of the positions you mentioned to be more important.

No, it wouldn't. But Rodgers need some weapons in the passing game first in my opinion.

You will always be chasing your tail with that approach. We have some talented players that may or may not develop at WR and TE. At worst, I think Tonyan and Sternberger will be average. Of MVS, Lazzard and St. Brown, one will be above and another will be average. Of course, I am of the belief that AR or "system comfort" is a much bigger problem than receiver quality. Why get more weapons when he is not using the ones he has?

But what do we have behind both of our OTs? Bulaga is on borrowed time, and Bahk has shown lapses of performance. Hopefully not a trend, but would not be surprised if this is Bahks' last contract. We need to be grooming a LT for the future and a RT for more immediate needs.

I forgot about DL. I think we need another body there as well. M Adams has not progressed this season. I want a roster with several players at DL so they can stay fresh all game.

QB? Tough to say how MLF feels about our backup. The time to be developing ARs successor is now. If we are happy with what we have, fine. Otherwise it should be a high priority.

 

[tynimiller]

You will always be chasing your tail with that approach. We have some talented players that may or may not develop at WR and TE. At worst, I think Tonyan and Sternberger will be average. Of MVS, Lazzard and St. Brown, one will be above and another will be average. Of course, I am of the belief that AR or "system comfort" is a much bigger problem than receiver quality. Why get more weapons when he is not using the ones he has?

But what do we have behind both of our OTs? Bulaga is on borrowed time, and Bahk has shown lapses of performance. Hopefully not a trend, but would not be surprised if this is Bahks' last contract. We need to be grooming a LT for the future and a RT for more immediate needs.

I forgot about DL. I think we need another body there as well. M Adams has not progressed this season. I want a roster with several players at DL so they can stay fresh all game.

QB? Tough to say how MLF feels about our backup. The time to be developing ARs successor is now. If we are happy with what we have, fine. Otherwise it should be a high priority.

Not trying to assume, but I doubt Captain is saying there isn't any reason to draft or address the depths of those position but priority of importance is surely higher in the ILB, WR and TE rooms. I fully expect personally a mid and a late rounder spent on the OL.

 

[AmishMafia]

Not trying to assume, but I doubt Captain is saying there isn't any reason to draft or address the depths of those position but priority of importance is surely higher in the ILB, WR and TE rooms. I fully expect personally a mid and a late rounder spent on the OL.

I understood that. But I am arguing that WR and TE are not as important as those other positions. I would not be surprised if we didn't draft a TE. WR remains a possibility only because there a dozen prospects that are worth a late first early second. One of those could be BPA in the 2nd or even 3rd.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

You will always be chasing your tail with that approach. We have some talented players that may or may not develop at WR and TE. At worst, I think Tonyan and Sternberger will be average. Of MVS, Lazzard and St. Brown, one will be above and another will be average. Of course, I am of the belief that AR or "system comfort" is a much bigger problem than receiver quality. Why get more weapons when he is not using the ones he has?

Thompson's approach of relying on talented players to develop up to expectations for far too long has been a recipe for disaster that has left the roster in dire need of upgrades at several positions. While it's not surprising that you want to continue that way it has been proven not to be smart.

There's absolutely no doubt Gutekunst needs to address the receiving corps next offseason. Inside linebacker is another position in dire need of improvement.

As Tynimiller correctly pointed out I understand there are other positions to be addressed but those are the most important ones.

That might change if Bulaga isn't re-signed though.

 

[AmishMafia]

Thompson's approach of relying on talented players to develop up to expectations for far too long has been a recipe for disaster that has left the roster in dire need of upgrades at several positions. While it's not surprising that you want to continue that way it has been proven not to be smart.

There's absolutely no doubt Gutekunst needs to address the receiving corps next offseason. Inside linebacker is another position in dire need of improvement.

As Tynimiller correctly pointed out I understand there are other positions to be addressed but those are the most important ones.

That might change if Bulaga isn't re-signed though.

Having another WR open does not impact this team much. WR talent level is not the limiting factor.

TTs approach was a recipe for a disaster? Winning a SB and having one of the best records of any NFL team over his tenure says otherwise. Your unrelenting blind hatred of that man has lead you to some pretty foolish comments.

Waiting for a WR to develop in years is too long? Good grief that is ignorant. As I have posted MVS stats for his first 2 years exceeds or is similar to Jordy, Adams, James Jones, and Driver. Lazard seems farther ahead.

Again, you are chasing your tail with talent. Our cupboard behind the OL starters is rather bare. Why not wait and see how the WRs develop? We may not need any upgrades at WR, but our OT need may be tremendous as soon as next year. Your plan of waiting a year AFTER a need develops doesn't sound like a good strategy.

 

[mradtke66]

Again, you are chasing your tail with talent. Our cupboard behind the OL starters is rather bare.

I think this is overly simplistic. My basic thoughts are:

1. There is a general shortage of O-Line talent. While our backups aren't great, the total talent level of our group is typical. If a backup comes in, you're going to see a drop off of a least a little bit. That's true for the league, unless you get lucky with a 4th rounder (for example) exceeding expectations.
   
   
2. I don't think you need a super-star line to win. In many ways, the minimum-viable-level of offensive linemen has come down slightly. In the 1990s, you got your two steps and the defense could still destroy the quarterback. By adding the various levels of quarterback protection, you've effectively given the offensive line a beat or two of slop to win with.
   
   
3. Our WR group is below the minimum-viable-level of talent. While I also have hope that MVS et al develop, right now, it's too easy to shut down the passing game by doubling Adams.
   
   
4. Minimum-viable-level of talent fluctuates a little bit, but there are true minimums. IE, if you had two Reggie Whites, Gilbert Brown, and Warren Sapp as your defensive line, the minimum-viable-level for your MLB is probably "has played MLB at the college level," but it's not "has pulse, can run." In other words, as one group gets better, it allows you to lower the minimums, but there is point where you just can cover up the deficiencies, no matter how good the other position groups are.
   

Right now, even with our pretty good pass blocking line, we struggle to throw the ball consistently. If we invest heavily and have a line as good (which again, is pretty darn good) as our current group, we will likely still struggle to throw the ball consistently.

If we have a line almost as good as our currently line with better pass catchers, we will likely improve the passing game. It is reasonable to expect it would make the line's job easier if two players are legitimate threats.

Of course, no reason we couldn't do both. Inject some youth at O-Line, spend a high pick on WR, and there you go. Everyone is happy.

 

[AmishMafia]

I think this is overly simplistic. My basic thoughts are:

1. There is a general shortage of O-Line talent. While our backups aren't great, the total talent level of our group is typical. If a backup comes in, you're going to see a drop off of a least a little bit. That's true for the league, unless you get lucky with a 4th rounder (for example) exceeding expectations.
   
   
2. I don't think you need a super-star line to win. In many ways, the minimum-viable-level of offensive linemen has come down slightly. In the 1990s, you got your two steps and the defense could still destroy the quarterback. By adding the various levels of quarterback protection, you've effectively given the offensive line a beat or two of slop to win with.
   
   
3. Our WR group is below the minimum-viable-level of talent. While I also have hope that MVS et al develop, right now, it's too easy to shut down the passing game by doubling Adams.
   
   
4. Minimum-viable-level of talent fluctuates a little bit, but there are true minimums. IE, if you had two Reggie Whites, Gilbert Brown, and Warren Sapp as your defensive line, the minimum-viable-level for your MLB is probably "has played MLB at the college level," but it's not "has pulse, can run." In other words, as one group gets better, it allows you to lower the minimums, but there is point where you just can cover up the deficiencies, no matter how good the other position groups are.

Right now, even with our pretty good pass blocking line, we struggle to throw the ball consistently. If we invest heavily and have a line as good (which again, is pretty darn good) as our current group, we will likely still struggle to throw the ball consistently.

If we have a line almost as good as our currently line with better pass catchers, we will likely improve the passing game. It is reasonable to expect it would make the line's job easier if two players are legitimate threats.

Of course, no reason we couldn't do both. Inject some youth at O-Line, spend a high pick on WR, and there you go. Everyone is happy.

There is a WR open on many plays when a pass is not completed. You only need one WR open per play. Having two open WRs does not really help the offense.

I think most of our passing game issues are not WR related but QB. I don't think AR is washed up, he just isn't comfortable in the new offense. I think he will play much better next year. He just needs more time and comfort to start trusting himself in it.

As far as our OLine goes, the excuse for AR not throwing to open WRs is often 'well what do you expect, he was running for his life back there'. It can't be both.

Your analogy with the HOFers is fine. However there is the thought of synergies as well. Yes you could get by with a low level player at MLB, but what if you could get a Ray Lewis. Can you imagine the Havoc that man could have done with 4 HOF DL in front of him? I have thought about the 2 philosophies and would just go with BPA. If you can get good player you do it regardless of the talent level of other players already on the team.

 

[OldSchool101]

I went ahead and added my “X” just to make it
an even 10 of them

 

[mradtke66]

There is a WR open on many plays when a pass is not completed. You only need one WR open per play. Having two open WRs does not really help the offense.

I'd say again overly simplistic. If you have one stud (Adams) you can too easily double him. An offense needs to threaten multiple ways just by breaking the huddle. It cascades down to making the playcaller's job easier.

As far as our OLine goes, the excuse for AR not throwing to open WRs is often 'well what do you expect, he was running for his life back there'. It can't be both.

My opinion isn't that Rodgers is running for his life. Sometimes he holds the ball too long, yes. I suspect you're right that part of that is his comfort level, but I also think the WR's (outside Adams) are really helping him either.

Which is why I'd like to improve the WRs as priority one this off season. The pending FA class looks weak, so I presume they'll try to draft one early. Of course I don't want them to reach, so I'd be fine with a 3rd-4th round pick if, for example, we could get a coverage linebacker earlier.

Your analogy with the HOFers is fine. However there is the thought of synergies as well. Yes you could get by with a low level player at MLB, but what if you could get a Ray Lewis. Can you imagine the Havoc that man could have done with 4 HOF DL in front of him? I have thought about the 2 philosophies and would just go with BPA. If you can get good player you do it regardless of the talent level of other players already on the team.

I think we largely agree here. I'm not saying we don't need a good O-Line. I'd love to have both. I just see the WR group the weakest and the O-Line one of the strongest on offense, so I'd prefer more focus there. Obviously, the match changes if we don't retain Bulaga. Maybe our super-glue approach is Jared Veldheer for 2020? Hard to say at this juncture.

 

[AmishMafia]

Maybe our super-glue approach is Jared Veldheer for 2020? Hard to say at this juncture.

I am cautiously optimistic about Veldheer. A few years ago he looked really good. Dominant at times. Not sure what happened to him. Really hope he can get back to form.

 

[Deleted member 6794]

TTs approach was a recipe for a disaster? Winning a SB and having one of the best records of any NFL team over his tenure says otherwise. Your unrelenting blind hatred of that man has lead you to some pretty foolish comments.

You're well aware that I was talking about the last few years of Thompson's tenure as the Packers general manager. There's no doubt at all that he left the roster with a complete lack of talent at several positions.

Waiting for a WR to develop in years is too long? Good grief that is ignorant. As I have posted MVS stats for his first 2 years exceeds or is similar to Jordy, Adams, James Jones, and Driver. Lazard seems farther ahead.

I'm absolutely fine with giving MVS, Lazard, EQ and other receivers time to develop. The main point being that the Packers shouldn't rely on one of them being able to fill the #2 spot next season.

Why not wait and see how the WRs develop? Your plan of waiting a year AFTER a need develops doesn't sound like a good strategy.

The Packers approached the receiver position that way this season and it hasn't worked out as planned.

Actually I want the Packers to be proactive addressing needs, therefore I was advocating for them to bring in a veteran receiver last offseason.

With that being said I'm in favor of improving depth on the offensive line as well. But if the team retains Bulaga WR and TE are in more dire need of an upgrade.