Actually, DE was regarded as one of our largest holes. Jame is injury prone, and Udeze was diagnosed with Leukemia over the summer. Our pass D is only average, mostly because we could not generate consistent pressure on the QB. BTW - we were only last in yardage. We were also passed against more than any other team except the Lions - largely in part to our incredible rushing defense. We were in the middle of the pack for points given up.
Vikes acquire Jared Allen
- Thread starter bozz_2006
- Start date
Actually, DE was regarded as one of our largest holes. Jame is injury prone, and Udeze was diagnosed with Leukemia over the summer. Our pass D is only average, mostly because we could not generate consistent pressure on the QB. BTW - we were only last in yardage. We were also passed against more than any other team except the Lions - largely in part to our incredible rushing defense. We were in the middle of the pack for points given up.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Pack93z said:NodakPaul said:Pack93z said:
LOL. Thanks. I actually emailed it to Paul Allen and told him to use it in the game if it happens. He loved it!
Very well done.. as I put up over in the PPO.. I throw a wager at you of some sort, Allen gets zero sacks against the Pack opening night.. I will take Cliffy vs Allen, hands down.
Loser has to sport the signature of the winner's choice for a month? You game?
EDIT: On both sites!
Game on.. :virtual shaking of the hands:
Congrats on the trade again.
OP
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bozz_2006
Cheesehead
i do think they made a mistake doing this. sure, allen will be good. but it takes time to build a solid team. the way you build a team is through the draft. they just set themselves back, in my opinion. yeah Allen is a great player, and he will get his sacks, but it's gonna take more than that to win games, like, actually scoring points... with your offense. i'm glad our FO has more self-control than yours. lastly, i'm not complaining about the trade. i think it will actually pay off for GB because of how far back it will set the organization in regards to building a solid team. and yes, i honestly believe the vikings are moving in the direction of Washington and Oakland.
Greg C.
Cheesehead
So you don't think it helps their pass defense to sign one of the best pass rushers in the league? Quick, name their defensive ends from last season.
Look, the price was high and the risk was high, but I don't think we can deny that this is a big move by the Vikings.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Greg C. said:
100% money post there Greg.. like it or not, it helped them out a ton.
johnny_blood
Cheesehead
I also think this could be a short term gain and a long term setback. Even if you are contender next year, that is nothing worth blowing your *** over. I agree with what Thompson has said a few times, that you don't give up future success, or your ability to build through the draft, in order to be a contender one or two seasons. Now maybe if you were right on the cusp the calculation would change, but you aren't.
Are the Vikings becoming more like Washington and Oakland? Well it is hard to deny that they are banking on free agency over the draft.
Another consideration here is that such a blockbuster, expensive deal might generate buzz and faith in the owner, helping to get a new stadium.
I'm just playing up the negatives, of course Vikings fans should be excited to have this guy on their line. (Well the stadium angle isn't a negative, I do hope they get a new stadium.)
Are the Vikings becoming more like Washington and Oakland? Well it is hard to deny that they are banking on free agency over the draft.
Another consideration here is that such a blockbuster, expensive deal might generate buzz and faith in the owner, helping to get a new stadium.
I'm just playing up the negatives, of course Vikings fans should be excited to have this guy on their line. (Well the stadium angle isn't a negative, I do hope they get a new stadium.)
johnny_blood said:
Except we didn't blow our *** on one player, nor did we leverage any of our future draft picks. And we still have 6 picks in this year's draft. We were in a good position to make a trade like this because we had a surplus of draft picks this year.
The Vikings have been building through the draft and by getting young players in FA for the past three years. Just because we go outside the box for one player doesn't mean that we have abandoned our overall strategy.
The Vikings, as I said before, had three major holes to fill this offseason.
#1: a number 1 WR. They traded Troy Williamson, which is as close to the definition of addition by subtraction as you can get. Then they went and signed Benard Berrian. While I don't know if he really is a #1 guy, and they did overpay for him, he was the best WR on the FA market, and the Vikes absolutely needed a WR. You're not going to get a #1 WR in the draft, at least not in that player's rookie season, so the Vikes options were real limited.
#2: a pass rushing DE. With James' injury history and Udeze illness, they needed someone. They got a 26 year old entering his 5th season who has 43 sacks in his previous 4 seasons. When you put him next to the Williams Wall, that is a scary defensive line. With all of the FA DE signing deals before they visited Minnesota, this was the best move available.
#3: a starting FS: The Vikings had a number of safeties leave this offseason, and their depth was very thin. They got Madieu Williams, a free safety who is very good in pass coverage. That is exactly what they needed to play opposite of Sharper.
Those are holes that the Vikings had to fill. If they didn't find something before the draft, they would have to consider that during the draft, and drafting for need instead of drafting best player available is a recipe for disaster. I don't consider that buying a championship, I consider that filling your holes so that you can build through the draft. They just happened to fill the holes in their roster with expensive players.
The last two years, since the current staff has been in place, they have drafted 14 players. Ten of them are still on the team and have shown great ability and/or potential. That is a good job of building through the draft. The Vikings still have 6 picks this year (though mostly in later rounds). That still gives them a good chance to find players who can be a part of the future of this team, especially considering this staff's demostrated abilities in the draft. This deal doesn't affect future draft classes.
I don't think the Vikings have mortgaged the future, or that they're turning into the Redskins. The Redskins MO was to overpay for fading stars. The Vikings MO has been to overpay (hey, it's free agency) for young potential stars coming off of their first contract; guys that can be with the team a while.
We'll see how the draft pans out, but I think this is going to be a great move for the Vikings. Finally being able to put some pressure on the QB should allow the pass defense to get its head above water, and paired with the #1 rush defense (for two years running), should put the overall D well into the top 10.
The success or failure of the Vikings' season now rests on the improvement (or lack thereof) of Tarvaris Jackson.
#1: a number 1 WR. They traded Troy Williamson, which is as close to the definition of addition by subtraction as you can get. Then they went and signed Benard Berrian. While I don't know if he really is a #1 guy, and they did overpay for him, he was the best WR on the FA market, and the Vikes absolutely needed a WR. You're not going to get a #1 WR in the draft, at least not in that player's rookie season, so the Vikes options were real limited.
#2: a pass rushing DE. With James' injury history and Udeze illness, they needed someone. They got a 26 year old entering his 5th season who has 43 sacks in his previous 4 seasons. When you put him next to the Williams Wall, that is a scary defensive line. With all of the FA DE signing deals before they visited Minnesota, this was the best move available.
#3: a starting FS: The Vikings had a number of safeties leave this offseason, and their depth was very thin. They got Madieu Williams, a free safety who is very good in pass coverage. That is exactly what they needed to play opposite of Sharper.
Those are holes that the Vikings had to fill. If they didn't find something before the draft, they would have to consider that during the draft, and drafting for need instead of drafting best player available is a recipe for disaster. I don't consider that buying a championship, I consider that filling your holes so that you can build through the draft. They just happened to fill the holes in their roster with expensive players.
The last two years, since the current staff has been in place, they have drafted 14 players. Ten of them are still on the team and have shown great ability and/or potential. That is a good job of building through the draft. The Vikings still have 6 picks this year (though mostly in later rounds). That still gives them a good chance to find players who can be a part of the future of this team, especially considering this staff's demostrated abilities in the draft. This deal doesn't affect future draft classes.
I don't think the Vikings have mortgaged the future, or that they're turning into the Redskins. The Redskins MO was to overpay for fading stars. The Vikings MO has been to overpay (hey, it's free agency) for young potential stars coming off of their first contract; guys that can be with the team a while.
We'll see how the draft pans out, but I think this is going to be a great move for the Vikings. Finally being able to put some pressure on the QB should allow the pass defense to get its head above water, and paired with the #1 rush defense (for two years running), should put the overall D well into the top 10.
The success or failure of the Vikings' season now rests on the improvement (or lack thereof) of Tarvaris Jackson.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Nice post Josdin.. for the NFCN sake, stay out of the Vikings front office please.
OP
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bozz_2006
Cheesehead
very good post josdin.
I like the move. Someone earlier (pack93z?) said that the wieght is now on TJack's shoulders. Maybe not. Maybe now there is less wieght becasue of the defense. I think that this is a problem, IMO. Especially after reading josdin00's analysis.
OP
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bozz_2006
Cheesehead
I don't quite follow. Could you say more?
bozz_2006 said:
Cant follow my jibberish? Niether could my HS english teachers.
I think that this is going to make their defense even better than it was. If that is the case, there will be less pressure on the offense. Maybe TJack (QB) will be able to perform better with less pressure. Now, 7 or 10 points might look pretty safe. RUnning game can be utilized more, maybe everything falls into place for the viks.
OP
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bozz_2006
Cheesehead
If that's the case, why do you like that move? You aren't a Vikings fan are you? I thought you were a Bears fan, or an Eagles fan, or a Calgary Stampeders fan, or something.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Bad sign for current Vikes fans?
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/18093529.html
I might be stretching out on a limb a bit here, but these investors are going to want some of that capital returned and with the pushing of the signing bonus's out over the next couple of years with this crop of FA, that means two things to my wee little thinking.
First, Viking fans should enjoy the splurge now, because that cash flow stream is going to be restricted the next couple of offseasons. In other words, this better be the right mix of players to keep that Super Bowl window open for a couple of seasons.
Second, coupled with the stadium issue, wouldn't a cash flow needy team without a clear vision of a stadium being built, be likely to grab the cash a place like LA that will be willing to throw a ton of money at the owners; the same one that will be breaking ground on a state of the art stadium.
Build a very competitive team, if the state / city isn't going to fork over enough to build a stadium with increased non-shared revenue, then pull up the stakes and move this competitive team off to a new city that should embrace it.
I hope none of that happens, I truly don't but that is the first thing that popped to mind when I read the article.
http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikings/18093529.html
I might be stretching out on a limb a bit here, but these investors are going to want some of that capital returned and with the pushing of the signing bonus's out over the next couple of years with this crop of FA, that means two things to my wee little thinking.
First, Viking fans should enjoy the splurge now, because that cash flow stream is going to be restricted the next couple of offseasons. In other words, this better be the right mix of players to keep that Super Bowl window open for a couple of seasons.
Second, coupled with the stadium issue, wouldn't a cash flow needy team without a clear vision of a stadium being built, be likely to grab the cash a place like LA that will be willing to throw a ton of money at the owners; the same one that will be breaking ground on a state of the art stadium.
Build a very competitive team, if the state / city isn't going to fork over enough to build a stadium with increased non-shared revenue, then pull up the stakes and move this competitive team off to a new city that should embrace it.
I hope none of that happens, I truly don't but that is the first thing that popped to mind when I read the article.
V
Vikeman
Guest
The hatred on this site is overwhelming. You guys act like we traded future picks for the guy. We have all of our picks in the next 2 drafts. We did not mortgage the future. One of those 3rd rounders wasn't even ours. Allen is worth the 17th pick and a 3rd rounder. Matter of fact if you add all of the picks up we traded, it would be equivalent to the 9th overall pick...based on the point system. Are you telling me a team would pass on a nfl sack leader at pick number 9? I still don't thnk it puts over the hump but I am excited about him playing next to the Wiliiams boys.
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bozz_2006
Cheesehead
it's not just the picks, it's the money. You guys now have the highest paid defensive player in the league, and the highest paid O-lineman in the league (I think Hutch is still the highest.) Your team was already strapped for cash. They are not a solid team. You have poor depth. Future draft picks and the Vikings' own FAs will need to be signed in the coming years and the Vikings won't have the money to do it. Salary cap issues don't happen overnight, the happen over time due to situations just like this one.
I know it looks like you have tons of cap space, but those phony bonuses that are set up will come back to bite you in the future. Fudging the numbers only works for so long. The only hope is that those with the bonuses agree to restructure or get cut. Sorry, but Jared Allen doesn't scream "team player", and I'd bet you dollars to donuts that he won't restructure, meaning there is a very real possibility that he'll get cut after two or three seasons. Suddenly, those draft picks you guys gave up are going to look much more attractive than they do now.
Just more proof that the Vikings are turning into the Raiders, Redskins, or (shudder...) the Lions. Hate? Hell, I LOVE the Vikings FO. lol
johnny_blood
Cheesehead
"Mortgaging the future" does not require giving away *future* draft picks.
You gave up three picks and the team had to raise money just to pay the signing bonus. That has implications for the future.
I'm not convinced it is mortgaging the future, but this is a high risk deal in my opinion. This is using free agency to take a shot at a championship right now instead of building depth. I really don't think ANY NFC North team should have that strategy right now.
I suppose if you just assume your team will waste the draft picks on more bust DEs, the deal looks a lot sweeter.
You gave up three picks and the team had to raise money just to pay the signing bonus. That has implications for the future.
I'm not convinced it is mortgaging the future, but this is a high risk deal in my opinion. This is using free agency to take a shot at a championship right now instead of building depth. I really don't think ANY NFC North team should have that strategy right now.
I suppose if you just assume your team will waste the draft picks on more bust DEs, the deal looks a lot sweeter.
V
Vikeman
Guest
bozz_2006 said:
Wrong again...geez if you want to debate let's at least have knowledge of what were debating. All of the contracts the Vikings give out are frontloaded to keep them cap friendly. Matter of fact when was the last time you ever heard the Vikes being in cap trouble? I can't remember. Let me repeat the question...Would you take an nfl sack leader with the 9th overall pick?
It doesn't matter anyway we spin it. If the Vikings got Allen for Michael Bennet straight up there would be Packer fans saying we got screwed. It's a move made by an arch rival...so naturally there is going to be half truths and nonsense posted on these boards. And let's not throw stones...you guys gave some money to an overrated CB from the raiders a while back which 80% of the people on this board hated. Who also wasn't considered a "team player". Now he is great!!
johnny_blood
Cheesehead
The Packers didn't trade for Woodson, didn't lose any picks, and though the salary was high, it didn't cause any cap issues or require a special capital call.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
LA market with a new stadium to provide a increased revenue stream?
johnny_blood
Cheesehead
This deal is surely the ultimate excuse to justify a move. "We did everything to win, and they wouldn't build us a stadium!" The owners would all sympathize.
I really hope that doesn't happen, though.
I really hope that doesn't happen, though.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
Hate to point out something, but recheck the Allen deal.. 15 million in signing bonus with heavy bonuses in year three. Not really a front loaded deal, which was wise on the Vikes part.. but my point is that they have borrowed capital against the investors four times already.. 15 mil to get this Allen deal done. Sooner or later the "investors" are going to want a return on the money.
I think the Allen deal was fair on both sides and helps the Vikes out on the field without a doubt. It is the economics of the decision I question.. not to mention the risk of a guy on strike two.
Allen receives a signing bonus of $15,500,069, and a base salary of $750,000 in 2008.
Pack93z
You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime
johnny_blood said:
Bingo.. it is forcing MN hand politically.. either build a stadium or we have to increase the revenue stream somehow.. what better way than to move into one of the largest open markets in the country. New stadium being built.. and the city government and NFL beggin for a team.
Can you imagine if the Packers asked the city for a capital loan to sign a FA.. off more tax money.. yikes.
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