Tramon Williams Looking Good

millertime

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Al Harris is a guy with limitations. He can cover smaller receivers because they can't get off the line. They games that I remember Harris getting smoked were the Cowboys game and the Giants game.

I think the true fault lies with our Defensive Coordinator. In the Cowboys game, Woodson was out so that put more pressure on Harris, because Jarrett Bush needed safety and LB help. In the Giants game, the coach listened to Al Harris saying all game that he could cover Plaxico one-on-one, despite being repeatedly burned. Bob Sanders should have made half time adjustments and given Harris safety, even if it would hurt Al's pride.

Another thing is that our corners are ancient. Any moment either of these guys could blow out a knee. We're grooming some replacements in Williams, Lee, and Bush. Getting these guys some PT is a good thing.
 

IronMan

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Harris deserved to go to the Pro Bowl. He's a top caliber CB. .
I disagree. Top caliber players make plays. Harris doesn't make enough plays. Charles Woodson does. He deserved the pro Bowl spot.
 

pack_in_black

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Zombieslayer said:
Harris deserved to go to the Pro Bowl. He's a top caliber CB. .
I disagree. Top caliber players make plays. Harris doesn't make enough plays. Charles Woodson does. He deserved the pro Bowl spot.

Harris had two INTs. Woodson had four picks with 1 TD. Not a huge disparity there, IMO.


Not to mention, Harris was man-to-man against some very talented, and often elite, guys.

Just to mix up the Harris lockdown vs. slowed-down debate, here are the stats of some of the better #1 WRs he faced last year :


Plaxico (32 yds, 1 TD)

Santana Moss (who had about 46 drops that game, but still 0 catches, 0 yds)

Roy Williams on Thanksgiving (32 yds, 0 TDs)

Brandon Marshall (74yds, 0 TDs)

TO (156 yds, 1 TD)

Vincent Jackson (98 yds, 1 TD)

Tory Holt (21 yds, 1 TD)



Color me impressed. Those are some hefty names on there, and only one had over 100 yds and none had multiple-TD games...
 

Zombieslayer

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pack_in_black said:
Harris had two INTs. Woodson had four picks with 1 TD. Not a huge disparity there, IMO.


Not to mention, Harris was man-to-man against some very talented, and often elite, guys.

Just to mix up the Harris lockdown vs. slowed-down debate, here are the stats of some of the better #1 WRs he faced last year :


Plaxico (32 yds, 1 TD)

Santana Moss (who had about 46 drops that game, but still 0 catches, 0 yds)

Roy Williams on Thanksgiving (32 yds, 0 TDs)

Brandon Marshall (74yds, 0 TDs)

TO (156 yds, 1 TD)

Vincent Jackson (98 yds, 1 TD)

Tory Holt (21 yds, 1 TD)



Color me impressed. Those are some hefty names on there, and only one had over 100 yds and none had multiple-TD games...

PIB - Thank you. This proves our points.

Now, keep in mind against TO, Tony Overrated Romo had around six seconds to throw the ball. Put ANY CB out there for 6 seconds against an elite WR and see how he manages. The lack of a pass rush was getting us killed in that game.
 

johnny_blood

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Harris is definitely better than an average CB. No CB plays an entire season without some bad stretches. As said above, if the rookie Jones can abuse Champ Bailey, what CB plays well for an entire season? Deion in his prime, when opponents essentially forgot about his side of the field?

There's also no way that the average CB could play bump and run against #1 receivers all season long like Harris.

We do need to develop these younger CBs and I am very glad to hear that Williams is coming along.
 

Zombieslayer

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johnny_blood said:
Harris is definitely better than an average CB. No CB plays an entire season without some bad stretches. As said above, if the rookie Jones can abuse Champ Bailey, what CB plays well for an entire season? Deion in his prime, when opponents essentially forgot about his side of the field?

There's also no way that the average CB could play bump and run against #1 receivers all season long like Harris.

We do need to develop these younger CBs and I am very glad to hear that Williams is coming along.

Deion was superhuman. We probably won't see another CB as good within the next generation.

Keep in mind the shape one has to be in to play bump and run against WRs all season long. Harris is a very physical corner. A lot of WRs, he wears down by the end of the game. That's another aspect of Harris' game we take for granted.
 

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Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he missed a game all season, either.


As far as the penalties, they are a part of scheme. McCarthy has said so. He'll gladly take a few Illegal Contacts and Hands to the Face, cause the League is geared toward helping offenses. But we do everything we can to push the line. To quote Al Harris, "It's what we do dog, that's our scheme."


As far as the trash-talking, I think it makes Harris' game even better. He's not the one who has to focus and concentrate on being in exactly the right spot on the field at exactly the right time. He has to focus on knocking the guy across from him out of where he wants to be.

Most NFL receivers think primarily about order, precision. Our CB's think primarily about chaos. When you're trying to tell a guy how stupid/fat/ugly/easy his momma is, it's way more detrimental if you're trying to establish order than if you just wanna move sh** out of place.
 

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I got mad at Harris several times last season. But it's true that the QB's had WAY too much time to throw. We NEED to get D-line guys that can rattle a QB, not give them so long to allow who Harris is covering to get open. That i think would stop Harris from getting beat by the bigger WR's.
But unless we can actually do that, it will just keep happening.
 

Pack93z

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Here is the other issue I see with the CB's for the Packers.. we play exclusively the physical bump coverage.. how do you beat that coverage.. presnap movement, putting your WR in motion or stacking your intented receiver off the line allowing them to get a free release of sorts. Now that doesn't fall at the players feet, but it certainly doesn't help them do their jobs.. other than not making them think within the defense.. they get to play straight up coverage so to speak.

If my memory serves me correct.. the Dallas game they were moving TO around pre snap and lining him up off the line a good deal.. without any mixing of the coverages, we allow the QB to not guess or read the defense as much, in other words we play the same defense exclusively and we don't make the QB/ Offense really adjust to our schemes at all.

I like the arrogant approach of that defense, basically saying we are better than you.. but without any variances in the scheme we are letting the QB / OC off the hook a little in presnap reads and maybe confusing the QB a little.. making him misread the coverage or panic a little.

Add to that we aren't an overly effective blitzing defensive front.. we certainly add a ton of pressure on the perimeter of the defense.. and most of that falls on the CB's and the safeties making the correct reads and positioning every snap.
 

Zombieslayer

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If my memory serves me correct.. the Dallas game they were moving TO around pre snap and lining him up off the line a good deal.. without any mixing of the coverages, we allow the QB to not guess or read the defense as much, in other words we play the same defense exclusively and we don't make the QB/ Offense really adjust to our schemes at all.

Your memory is correct. TO kept staying in motion and often moved to the slot. So even the stats for TO are deceptive because a lot of his yardage came against the #3 CB.

Plus, as I think Cheesey had mentioned, the Cows had a lot of time to throw.
 

pack_in_black

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Speaking of Harris, he and Wood have apparently decided to start providing some veteran leadership.



When cornerback Al Harris stepped foot inside The Don Hutson Center on Wednesday, it meant every Green Bay Packers player had made at least one appearance during the first three weeks of organized team activities.


After skipping the first two weeks of the voluntary workouts, Harris left the comfort of his Coral Springs, Fla., home and flew to Green Bay on Tuesday night. His presence, along with that of fellow starting cornerback Charles Woodson, could be construed as a sign two of the team's veteran players feel the need to fill a leadership void created by quarterback Brett Favre's retirement in March.

Woodson, who like Harris has attended the OTAs sporadically since he signed with the Packers in 2006, has been participating in the OTAs the last two weeks after missing the first week. The OTAs conclude next week, and the team's lone mandatory minicamp takes place June 17-19. Harris and Woodson said they planned to remain in Green Bay through the minicamp, which is the final team activity before players report on July 27 for training camp.

"It's going to be, of course, a transition period for the Packers without Brett being around, and so I guess we need as many of the vets back as possible," Woodson said after Wednesday's practice. "From a personal standpoint, I'm not back trying to take the role of leader or nothing like that. I just felt like I needed to be here."

Harris said he planned to attend part of the OTAs but had some "family stuff" to do.

"It's time to come to work," Harris said. "It's time."

Though coach Mike McCarthy has stressed the importance of his offseason program since he was hired in 2006, he hasn't seemed concerned about how often Harris, 33, or Woodson, 31, take part in the OTAs. Given their history of being in top physical condition and their workout regimens in Florida (for Harris) and Houston (for Woodson), he probably has little reason to worry about what kind of shape they're in.

McCarthy said last week Woodson had been in Green Bay early in the offseason to work out before leaving for Houston, and this week he praised Harris for maintaining his conditioning.

"He's a player we don't concern ourselves with as far as getting out of shape," McCarthy said of Harris. "He has an offseason program that he has stuck to, and it definitely works for him. He is so powerful on the point. His jam technique is as good as I have been around. So, he looks to be in good shape. Just watching him work post-practice with (cornerbacks coach) Lionel Washington, I don't have any concerns."

Harris said he has followed his regular offseason training routine but wanted to get back to some football work.

"Just timing," Harris said when asked what he wanted to work on. "Get your timing down, get crisp and get into football shape. You're in shape, but you're not in football shape. You can work as hard as you want, but you still have to get into football shape and football tempo."

Plus, Harris said, players "get paid for being here, so that's always nice."

Harris and Woodson would be natural leaders for a team that lost its starting quarterback of the past 16 seasons. The Packers lost another veteran locker-room leader in longtime long-snapper Rob Davis, who retired this offseason. Harris and Woodson aren't extremely vocal, but both appear to have the respect of the younger players.

"This year, I kind of felt like I just kind of need to be around the team," Woodson said. "So, I let the coaches know that I was coming back up here, and here I am."

If there are concerns about Harris and Woodson succumbing to age, the Packers aren't showing it. Despite a poor performance by the secondary — especially by Harris — in the NFC championship game loss to the New York Giants, McCarthy and General Manager Ted Thompson appear confident in their veteran cornerback duo.

Still, McCarthy was pleased to see Harris join Woodson on the field on Wednesday. The two worked extensively with the No. 1 defense and appeared to take a full load of reps while some other veteran players were limited.

"The offseason is very important," McCarthy said. "We've talked about it a little bit in here already. I've addressed it with the football team. We have a very distorted training camp schedule compared to the ones we have had in the past. I think it will play parallel to our in-season schedule, so there is an amount of work that needs to get done in the offseason. These OTAs are important. Our minicamp in a couple of weeks is important.

"It's important for Al to be here just like everybody else — to make sure he is getting ready to go because the practices are less than what we have done in the last two years in training camp. So, you only have a certain window to get ready, and it's important for our players to be here. We're smart with our veteran players. We always have been since my time as the head coach, and we'll continue to do so. You've just got to find that happy medium."
 

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pack_in_black said:
"It's time to come to work," Harris said. "It's time."

Lol i wish more people use this line when turning up for work a week after all their colleagues have. :D
 

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Al Harris is the oldest Packer at 33?
Dang that makes me feel old now.

In defense of Al Harris, this is a team game. When you give a good QB too much time, he's going to burn you. NOBODY can cover a WR for 6 seconds consistently, and that's what Tony Overrated Romo was getting all day long.

The other thing how this is a team game is when someone is having trouble, you help. Disguise a coverage. Make it look like the Safety will go one way, then send him the other way and end up with a brutal hit or even better, an INT.

It seemed like we were doing it against the Hawks. Bigby (who will be in the Pro Bowl in '08 and is due for a nice fat paycheck increase) made their WRs almost wet their pants when a ball went in their direction. Why didn't we do that against the Giants? I don't know.

As for Williams, I like his punt returning abilities, but it will still take some time for him to develop as a CB. If he can eventually be a starter, I'd be very happy for him (and happy as a Packer fan).

You make some very valid points and I do agree with you.
 

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pack_in_black said:
"It's time to come to work," Harris said. "It's time."

Lol i wish more people use this line when turning up for work a week after all their colleagues have. :D

It is the same formula for success for an employee at Burger King, or a N.F.L. player. The first thing you have to do is "Pass The Show Up Test."

1. Show Up!

2. Show Up On Time!

3. Do The Best You Can!

4. Ask Yourself What You Could Have Done Better then work on it.



"Do not wish it was easier, wish YOU were better."
--- Jim Rohn ---
 

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I feel that too much pressure is being put on Al because he is the older and more experienced corner, everyone is having high expectations of him when still like people have pointed out, He is covering players like Flexico Burress, TO and Randy Moss for something like 5 seconds, it is really back to the old argument when people are expecting the corners to stop people like these while the quaterback has time to go to the loo and comeback and throw the ball, when really it is a team game and there should be pressure being put on the QB, i dont see why we arent we have some decent pass rushers, for example Kampman, we have a decent D-Line we have good blitzing lb's with speed such as A.J, We have to remember that unless the QB is being rushed and pressure is on him then we can let the CB's do there job.[marq=right]
 

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pack_in_black said:
Zombieslayer said:
Harris deserved to go to the Pro Bowl. He's a top caliber CB. .
I disagree. Top caliber players make plays. Harris doesn't make enough plays. Charles Woodson does. He deserved the pro Bowl spot.

Harris had two INTs. Woodson had four picks with 1 TD. Not a huge disparity there, IMO.
And Woodson had a fumble recovery for a touchdown against the Redskins.

The last two seasons:

Al Harris has 5 interceptions in 32 games. One of his interceptions last year came when T.O. was wide open and dropped a sure TD pass.

Charles Woodson has 12 interceptions in 30 games. His interception against the Chiefs last year iced the game. The fumble recovery for a touchdown against the Redskins gave the Packers the lead and won the game. His interception against the Panthers preserved the shutout. He had an interception for a touchdown against the Dolphins in 2006 that gave the Packers the lead. A game they won.

My point, Woodson makes game changing plays. Al Harris does not. When is the last time Al Harris made a game changing play? 2003?

Plus, Al Harris is a poor tackler. 78 tackles the least 2 years. Woodson has 122, in 2 less games.

Woodson = Pro Bowl caliber corner.
Harris = solid above average corner. NOT Pro Bowl worthy.
 

TheEngineer

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I saw Harris' Pro Bowl nod more towards his consistent solid play over his career than for the year, and the fact he's never been.

If Woodson repeats in terms of stats and performance, I'm sure he'd get in.
 

Zombieslayer

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I saw Harris' Pro Bowl nod more towards his consistent solid play over his career than for the year, and the fact he's never been.

If Woodson repeats in terms of stats and performance, I'm sure he'd get in.

Let's not forget Harris gets the #1 WR and Woodson gets the #2 WR. In the NFL, it's usually a pretty significant drop between the #1 and #2 WR.
 

pack_in_black

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TheEngineer said:
I saw Harris' Pro Bowl nod more towards his consistent solid play over his career than for the year, and the fact he's never been.

If Woodson repeats in terms of stats and performance, I'm sure he'd get in.

Let's not forget Harris gets the #1 WR and Woodson gets the #2 WR. In the NFL, it's usually a pretty significant drop between the #1 and #2 WR.


Sometimes, Woodson takes the #3, if he lines up inside. This offseason is the first time that anyone besides Al or Charles (Tramon Williams) has consistently lined up on the slot. Until now, every time a third WR would line up, Tramon or Jarrett or whoever was our nickel CB for that play would take whoever lined up nearest the sideline and was not the 1. So Woodson's had some cupcakes from time to time.

Harris absolutely shut down every guy he lined up against in '06, and did the same for the most part in '07. Guys should get Pro Bowls for that, IMO.

I agree with you, Iron Man, that Woodson deserved it, too. I just think that both of our CB's deserved to be the starters in Hawaii last year, as well as the year before.
 

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Al is good, yet I agree with Trom, I don't think he is as good as he's made out. He's great in Man coverage.

I'd also like to point out that he was schemed against in the Dallas game. TO was in motion a LOT and that worked. I'm surprised more teams do operate in that fashion against press coverage.

As for the original thread, I am glad to hear that our younger guys are coming along well.
 

Greg C.

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Here's a little more fuel for the fire, from Greg Bedard of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He wrote this on Thursday, June 12th, at the conclusion of the OTA's:

If I had to pick one player that really stood out during the OTAs, I would have to go with CB Tramon Williams. Everytime a ball was thrown to his guy, he was there like Velcro on him, usually making a play on the ball. Talked to him about it a little bit after practice. Williams said he was never a big believer in experience playing much of a role. He is now. He said he feels so much more confident and is physically more mature that it's carrying over into his play. There's really no doubting it. He's had a great camp so far and has to be looked at as the favorite at the nickel spot going into training camp.
 

BangTheDrum

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I just dont feel like Tramon is a stick your nose in there and make a play kind of guy... I wish he was because if he can get a pick.. he can MAKE plays. Just dont feel like he's the total package
 

Tiger

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Tramon needs to ditch #38 and ask for a proper number. You cant market a #38! :D
 

Greg C.

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I just dont feel like Tramon is a stick your nose in there and make a play kind of guy... I wish he was because if he can get a pick.. he can MAKE plays. Just dont feel like he's the total package

I don't think we as fans have seen enough of Williams to be sure what kind of player he is. The writer I just quoted above describes him as very much of a "stick your nose in there and make a play" kind of guy during the OTA's. I hope Williams continues to shine in training camp. We need an upgrade at the nickel spot. Jarret Bush was inconsistent, and average even on his best days.
 

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