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Tramon Williams Looking Good

Discussion in 'Packer Fan Forum' started by PackOne, Jun 1, 2008.

  1. millertime

    millertime Cheesehead

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    Al Harris is a guy with limitations. He can cover smaller receivers because they can't get off the line. They games that I remember Harris getting smoked were the Cowboys game and the Giants game.

    I think the true fault lies with our Defensive Coordinator. In the Cowboys game, Woodson was out so that put more pressure on Harris, because Jarrett Bush needed safety and LB help. In the Giants game, the coach listened to Al Harris saying all game that he could cover Plaxico one-on-one, despite being repeatedly burned. Bob Sanders should have made half time adjustments and given Harris safety, even if it would hurt Al's pride.

    Another thing is that our corners are ancient. Any moment either of these guys could blow out a knee. We're grooming some replacements in Williams, Lee, and Bush. Getting these guys some PT is a good thing.
     
  2. IronMan

    IronMan Cheesehead

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    I disagree. Top caliber players make plays. Harris doesn't make enough plays. Charles Woodson does. He deserved the pro Bowl spot.
     
  3. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Harris had two INTs. Woodson had four picks with 1 TD. Not a huge disparity there, IMO.


    Not to mention, Harris was man-to-man against some very talented, and often elite, guys.

    Just to mix up the Harris lockdown vs. slowed-down debate, here are the stats of some of the better #1 WRs he faced last year :


    Plaxico (32 yds, 1 TD)

    Santana Moss (who had about 46 drops that game, but still 0 catches, 0 yds)

    Roy Williams on Thanksgiving (32 yds, 0 TDs)

    Brandon Marshall (74yds, 0 TDs)

    TO (156 yds, 1 TD)

    Vincent Jackson (98 yds, 1 TD)

    Tory Holt (21 yds, 1 TD)



    Color me impressed. Those are some hefty names on there, and only one had over 100 yds and none had multiple-TD games...
     
  4. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    PIB - Thank you. This proves our points.

    Now, keep in mind against TO, Tony Overrated Romo had around six seconds to throw the ball. Put ANY CB out there for 6 seconds against an elite WR and see how he manages. The lack of a pass rush was getting us killed in that game.
     
  5. johnny_blood

    johnny_blood Cheesehead

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    Harris is definitely better than an average CB. No CB plays an entire season without some bad stretches. As said above, if the rookie Jones can abuse Champ Bailey, what CB plays well for an entire season? Deion in his prime, when opponents essentially forgot about his side of the field?

    There's also no way that the average CB could play bump and run against #1 receivers all season long like Harris.

    We do need to develop these younger CBs and I am very glad to hear that Williams is coming along.
     
  6. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Deion was superhuman. We probably won't see another CB as good within the next generation.

    Keep in mind the shape one has to be in to play bump and run against WRs all season long. Harris is a very physical corner. A lot of WRs, he wears down by the end of the game. That's another aspect of Harris' game we take for granted.
     
  7. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he missed a game all season, either.


    As far as the penalties, they are a part of scheme. McCarthy has said so. He'll gladly take a few Illegal Contacts and Hands to the Face, cause the League is geared toward helping offenses. But we do everything we can to push the line. To quote Al Harris, "It's what we do dog, that's our scheme."


    As far as the trash-talking, I think it makes Harris' game even better. He's not the one who has to focus and concentrate on being in exactly the right spot on the field at exactly the right time. He has to focus on knocking the guy across from him out of where he wants to be.

    Most NFL receivers think primarily about order, precision. Our CB's think primarily about chaos. When you're trying to tell a guy how stupid/fat/ugly/easy his momma is, it's way more detrimental if you're trying to establish order than if you just wanna move sh** out of place.
     
  8. cheesey

    cheesey Cheesehead

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    I got mad at Harris several times last season. But it's true that the QB's had WAY too much time to throw. We NEED to get D-line guys that can rattle a QB, not give them so long to allow who Harris is covering to get open. That i think would stop Harris from getting beat by the bigger WR's.
    But unless we can actually do that, it will just keep happening.
     
  9. Pack93z

    Pack93z You retired too? .... Not me. I'm in my prime

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    Here is the other issue I see with the CB's for the Packers.. we play exclusively the physical bump coverage.. how do you beat that coverage.. presnap movement, putting your WR in motion or stacking your intented receiver off the line allowing them to get a free release of sorts. Now that doesn't fall at the players feet, but it certainly doesn't help them do their jobs.. other than not making them think within the defense.. they get to play straight up coverage so to speak.

    If my memory serves me correct.. the Dallas game they were moving TO around pre snap and lining him up off the line a good deal.. without any mixing of the coverages, we allow the QB to not guess or read the defense as much, in other words we play the same defense exclusively and we don't make the QB/ Offense really adjust to our schemes at all.

    I like the arrogant approach of that defense, basically saying we are better than you.. but without any variances in the scheme we are letting the QB / OC off the hook a little in presnap reads and maybe confusing the QB a little.. making him misread the coverage or panic a little.

    Add to that we aren't an overly effective blitzing defensive front.. we certainly add a ton of pressure on the perimeter of the defense.. and most of that falls on the CB's and the safeties making the correct reads and positioning every snap.
     
  10. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Your memory is correct. TO kept staying in motion and often moved to the slot. So even the stats for TO are deceptive because a lot of his yardage came against the #3 CB.

    Plus, as I think Cheesey had mentioned, the Cows had a lot of time to throw.
     
  11. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Speaking of Harris, he and Wood have apparently decided to start providing some veteran leadership.



     
  12. tromadz

    tromadz Cheesehead

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    About time...
     
  13. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    Lol i wish more people use this line when turning up for work a week after all their colleagues have. :D
     
  14. CalifPacker

    CalifPacker Cheesehead

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    You make some very valid points and I do agree with you.
     
  15. Raider Pride

    Raider Pride Cheesehead

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    It is the same formula for success for an employee at Burger King, or a N.F.L. player. The first thing you have to do is "Pass The Show Up Test."

    1. Show Up!

    2. Show Up On Time!

    3. Do The Best You Can!

    4. Ask Yourself What You Could Have Done Better then work on it.



    "Do not wish it was easier, wish YOU were better."
    --- Jim Rohn ---
     
  16. KesterTheJester

    KesterTheJester Cheesehead

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    I feel that too much pressure is being put on Al because he is the older and more experienced corner, everyone is having high expectations of him when still like people have pointed out, He is covering players like Flexico Burress, TO and Randy Moss for something like 5 seconds, it is really back to the old argument when people are expecting the corners to stop people like these while the quaterback has time to go to the loo and comeback and throw the ball, when really it is a team game and there should be pressure being put on the QB, i dont see why we arent we have some decent pass rushers, for example Kampman, we have a decent D-Line we have good blitzing lb's with speed such as A.J, We have to remember that unless the QB is being rushed and pressure is on him then we can let the CB's do there job.[marq=right]
     
  17. IronMan

    IronMan Cheesehead

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    And Woodson had a fumble recovery for a touchdown against the Redskins.

    The last two seasons:

    Al Harris has 5 interceptions in 32 games. One of his interceptions last year came when T.O. was wide open and dropped a sure TD pass.

    Charles Woodson has 12 interceptions in 30 games. His interception against the Chiefs last year iced the game. The fumble recovery for a touchdown against the Redskins gave the Packers the lead and won the game. His interception against the Panthers preserved the shutout. He had an interception for a touchdown against the Dolphins in 2006 that gave the Packers the lead. A game they won.

    My point, Woodson makes game changing plays. Al Harris does not. When is the last time Al Harris made a game changing play? 2003?

    Plus, Al Harris is a poor tackler. 78 tackles the least 2 years. Woodson has 122, in 2 less games.

    Woodson = Pro Bowl caliber corner.
    Harris = solid above average corner. NOT Pro Bowl worthy.
     
  18. TheEngineer

    TheEngineer Cheesehead

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    I saw Harris' Pro Bowl nod more towards his consistent solid play over his career than for the year, and the fact he's never been.

    If Woodson repeats in terms of stats and performance, I'm sure he'd get in.
     
  19. Zombieslayer

    Zombieslayer Cheesehead

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    Let's not forget Harris gets the #1 WR and Woodson gets the #2 WR. In the NFL, it's usually a pretty significant drop between the #1 and #2 WR.
     
  20. pack_in_black

    pack_in_black Cheesehead

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    Sometimes, Woodson takes the #3, if he lines up inside. This offseason is the first time that anyone besides Al or Charles (Tramon Williams) has consistently lined up on the slot. Until now, every time a third WR would line up, Tramon or Jarrett or whoever was our nickel CB for that play would take whoever lined up nearest the sideline and was not the 1. So Woodson's had some cupcakes from time to time.

    Harris absolutely shut down every guy he lined up against in '06, and did the same for the most part in '07. Guys should get Pro Bowls for that, IMO.

    I agree with you, Iron Man, that Woodson deserved it, too. I just think that both of our CB's deserved to be the starters in Hawaii last year, as well as the year before.
     
  21. Timmons

    Timmons Cheesehead

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    Al is good, yet I agree with Trom, I don't think he is as good as he's made out. He's great in Man coverage.

    I'd also like to point out that he was schemed against in the Dallas game. TO was in motion a LOT and that worked. I'm surprised more teams do operate in that fashion against press coverage.

    As for the original thread, I am glad to hear that our younger guys are coming along well.
     
  22. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    Here's a little more fuel for the fire, from Greg Bedard of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. He wrote this on Thursday, June 12th, at the conclusion of the OTA's:

    If I had to pick one player that really stood out during the OTAs, I would have to go with CB Tramon Williams. Everytime a ball was thrown to his guy, he was there like Velcro on him, usually making a play on the ball. Talked to him about it a little bit after practice. Williams said he was never a big believer in experience playing much of a role. He is now. He said he feels so much more confident and is physically more mature that it's carrying over into his play. There's really no doubting it. He's had a great camp so far and has to be looked at as the favorite at the nickel spot going into training camp.
     
  23. BangTheDrum

    BangTheDrum Cheesehead

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    I just dont feel like Tramon is a stick your nose in there and make a play kind of guy... I wish he was because if he can get a pick.. he can MAKE plays. Just dont feel like he's the total package
     
  24. Tiger

    Tiger Cheesehead

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    Tramon needs to ditch #38 and ask for a proper number. You cant market a #38! :D
     
  25. Greg C.

    Greg C. Cheesehead

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    I don't think we as fans have seen enough of Williams to be sure what kind of player he is. The writer I just quoted above describes him as very much of a "stick your nose in there and make a play" kind of guy during the OTA's. I hope Williams continues to shine in training camp. We need an upgrade at the nickel spot. Jarret Bush was inconsistent, and average even on his best days.
     

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